@shar regulation and criminal behavior are two entirely different things, but are often confused. Money laundering has always been illegal. Politicians like to cite things like money laundering or Bernie Maddoff as reasons for why you need something like Glass-Steagall, yet in reality one has nothing to do with the others.
Are you assuming actual dialogue between the shopkeeper and the PC in which the PC basically says "gimme yo shit or I waste ya"? If that is the case then I see your point, but if it is just him charging you more in general for having a poor reputation, I think that he is not worried about being the victim of a stick up in the middle of Waukeen's Promenade.
I think he works under the assumption that no one is crazy enough to rob him in such a location, but if someone was I'm sure he would do like any normal person would and just give up the goods for free instead of risking his life. That's the one thing I was not always a fan of: if you get caught stealing/pickpocketing they turn hostile. That is kind of weird to me, while I see no problem with reputation playing a factor in shop prices.
Are you assuming actual dialogue between the shopkeeper and the PC in which the PC basically says "gimme yo shit or I waste ya"? If that is the case then I see your point, but if it is just him charging you more in general for having a poor reputation, I think that he is not worried about being the victim of a stick up in the middle of Waukeen's Promenade.
@booinyoureyes Isn't that the kind of behaviour that having poor rep implies, though?
Are you assuming actual dialogue between the shopkeeper and the PC in which the PC basically says "gimme yo shit or I waste ya"? If that is the case then I see your point, but if it is just him charging you more in general for having a poor reputation, I think that he is not worried about being the victim of a stick up in the middle of Waukeen's Promenade.
@booinyoureyes Isn't that the kind of behaviour that having poor rep implies, though?
@FinneousPJ It could be, but definitely not always (or even most of the time). If you are Lawful Evil for one. Also if you are an intelligent character who realizes that fighting a million guards would not be worth the benefits. Though I agree that some characters would do this, but that would be best shown in a dialogue rather than a simple reputation system. (I wish that was allowed)
That would the best, but I still think the way it works now doesn't make much sense.
How about another example. A well-known crime lord walks into a store (lawful evil, bad rep in society). He says he forgot his wallet and needs to pick up some stuff. Do you let him do it, or do you deny him service and meet with an "unfortunate accident" soon after?
How about another example. A well-known crime lord walks into a store (lawful evil, bad rep in society). He says he forgot his wallet and needs to pick up some stuff. Do you let him do it, or do you deny him service and meet with an "unfortunate accident" soon after?
Not so sure with this example which is more or less the classic godfather scene. I think here Vito got a positive reputation in his community - tough and expecting favours but always willing to help the little guy out for an unspecified favour which might never be called in.
Firstly, if you are in the middle of a large city, the shop owners can expect some protection from law enforcement. The fact that you might be able to slaughter your way through Amnish soldiers and Cowled Wizards mechanically in the game, does not mean it is not highly unrealistic for you to take on the military forces of an entire country's capital city.
Secondly, from a game mechanics perspective. Higher store prices for evil parties is supposed to balance the fact that an evil party can slaughter, steal and loot their way to greater xp and material rewards, and the evil NPCs are generally stronger than their Good counterparts.
I can't remember the exactly shops in question, but I remember that there's a few questionable institutions that are reversed, with high prices for high reputation, and vice versa.
ribald has literally ONE guard in his shop... if i wanted i could murder the entire shop and walk out without leaving any witnesses. Also i usually play chaotic good when i play good so my character steals anything thats not bolted on anyway... besides as a good character i am rolling in gold midgame anyway and have more gold than i could ever need. its just that when i play evil i seem to have not enough gold
ribald has literally ONE guard in his shop... if i wanted i could murder the entire shop and walk out without leaving any witnesses. Also i usually play chaotic good when i play good so my character steals anything thats not bolted on anyway... besides as a good character i am rolling in gold midgame anyway and have more gold than i could ever need. its just that when i play evil i seem to have not enough gold
Ugh... The roleplayer within is too outraged to ignore this. :P
Because being Chaotic DOES NOT justify burglary/theft at will. A thief perhaps cannot be Lawful, but a Chaotic individual does not need to be a thief, or condone theft.
Lawful => Chaotic is not just about obeying laws. It's your instinct and attitudes with regards to Order, Heirachy and Oragnisation, as opposed to Liberty, Anarchy and Freedom.
Whether you can steal something with moral justification on the Good => Evil axis depends on 1) Who you are stealing from. 2) Why you are stealing.
If you steal from hardworking merchants trying to feed their families, or worse, the farmer who's saved all year for a few gold coins he needs to feed his family through the winter, stealing away their life savings is not morally okay 'cos I am Chaotic lulz!', and if you do it on a consistent basis i.e. "steals anything thats not bolted on anyway", then your character is certainly not Good.
Chaotic does not mean Random, Chaotic does not relieve you of moral responsibility over your actions.
How about another example. A well-known crime lord walks into a store (lawful evil, bad rep in society). He says he forgot his wallet and needs to pick up some stuff. Do you let him do it, or do you deny him service and meet with an "unfortunate accident" soon after?
Not so sure with this example which is more or less the classic godfather scene. I think here Vito got a positive reputation in his community - tough and expecting favours but always willing to help the little guy out for an unspecified favour which might never be called in.
It could go either way. The godfather could have positive rep with some people and negative with others. It would also depend on the godfather himself and how he runs things. Some might prefer violence and fear, others more sophisticated methods of controlling people.
thac0 is 4, AC is 0, does 4-11 damage with 3 attacks
In other words, Ribald handed you your ass haha. That's awesome. I'm glad to know that Ribald is more than talk. Too bad we can't get him to join our party, leave the store behind, and take to the road once more!
ribald has literally ONE guard in his shop... if i wanted i could murder the entire shop and walk out without leaving any witnesses. Also i usually play chaotic good when i play good so my character steals anything thats not bolted on anyway... besides as a good character i am rolling in gold midgame anyway and have more gold than i could ever need. its just that when i play evil i seem to have not enough gold
Ugh... The roleplayer within is too outraged to ignore this. :P
Because being Chaotic DOES NOT justify burglary/theft at will. A thief perhaps cannot be Lawful, but a Chaotic individual does not need to be a thief, or condone theft.
Lawful => Chaotic is not just about obeying laws. It's your instinct and attitudes with regards to Order, Heirachy and Oragnisation, as opposed to Liberty, Anarchy and Freedom.
Whether you can steal something with moral justification on the Good => Evil axis depends on 1) Who you are stealing from. 2) Why you are stealing.
If you steal from hardworking merchants trying to feed their families, or worse, the farmer who's saved all year for a few gold coins he needs to feed his family through the winter, stealing away their life savings is not morally okay 'cos I am Chaotic lulz!', and if you do it on a consistent basis i.e. "steals anything thats not bolted on anyway", then your character is certainly not Good.
Chaotic does not mean Random, Chaotic does not relieve you of moral responsibility over your actions.
well maybe it doesn't have to be the way YOU play it but in my definition chaotic good characters are always the rogue kind of guys. and i wasn't necessarily talking about stealing stuff from hard working men... i prefer the more robin hood-ish kind of approach. i guess the roleplayer within me just has a different opinion
@Korlamaq The thing is that Ribald is a hard-working and honest merchant. He does not bully or coerce his customers from what we see. Robin Hood, according to centuries of tradition, did not steal from hard working merchants like him, but from thugs and bullies who used their "legitimate" positions to commit legal plunder. The common theme of Robin Hood "stealing from the rich, and giving to the poor" is a very modern Hollywood take. It wold be more accurate to say he "stole from the cruel and gave to the helpless". In fact, in most of the tales Robin and his men were fairly affluent themselves. The fact that he does discriminate between his targets is what makes him "good" and I think that is what Heindrich was referring to.
You can play your character any way you want, but I think it would be more rewarding to play a CG thief as someone who would steal from the Drow merchants, or from the random riff-raff you find in the Dock's District, or the Shadow Thief merchant or even from the Copper Coronet when Lehtinan is still running it! I just can't see it as very enjoyable to play a "good character" who mugs Winthrop or something!
@Korlamaq The thing is that Ribald is a hard-working and honest merchant. He does not bully or coerce his customers from what we see. Robin Hood, according to centuries of tradition, did not steal from hard working merchants like him, but from thugs and bullies who used their "legitimate" positions to commit legal plunder. The common theme of Robin Hood "stealing from the rich, and giving to the poor" is a very modern Hollywood take. It wold be more accurate to say he "stole from the cruel and gave to the helpless". In fact, in most of the tales Robin and his men were fairly affluent themselves. The fact that he does discriminate between his targets is what makes him "good" and I think that is what Heindrich was referring to.
You can play your character any way you want, but I think it would be more rewarding to play a CG thief as someone who would steal from the Drow merchants, or from the random riff-raff you find in the Dock's District, or the Shadow Thief merchant or even from the Copper Coronet when Lehtinan is still running it! I just can't see it as very enjoyable to play a "good character" who mugs Winthrop or something!
Think of the PR scandal if Ribald sells you a weapon you later use to slaughter a village of innocents! "well you know that spawn of bhaal buys all his equipment from that awful Ribald? i wouldn't buy an arrow from that evil business!"
Better to promote Ribald's AdventureMart as the shop for Dragonslayers and Heroes than the shop for tyrants and murderers
ribald has literally ONE guard in his shop... if i wanted i could murder the entire shop and walk out without leaving any witnesses. Also i usually play chaotic good when i play good so my character steals anything thats not bolted on anyway... besides as a good character i am rolling in gold midgame anyway and have more gold than i could ever need. its just that when i play evil i seem to have not enough gold
Ugh... The roleplayer within is too outraged to ignore this. :P
Because being Chaotic DOES NOT justify burglary/theft at will. A thief perhaps cannot be Lawful, but a Chaotic individual does not need to be a thief, or condone theft.
Lawful => Chaotic is not just about obeying laws. It's your instinct and attitudes with regards to Order, Heirachy and Oragnisation, as opposed to Liberty, Anarchy and Freedom.
Whether you can steal something with moral justification on the Good => Evil axis depends on 1) Who you are stealing from. 2) Why you are stealing.
If you steal from hardworking merchants trying to feed their families, or worse, the farmer who's saved all year for a few gold coins he needs to feed his family through the winter, stealing away their life savings is not morally okay 'cos I am Chaotic lulz!', and if you do it on a consistent basis i.e. "steals anything thats not bolted on anyway", then your character is certainly not Good.
Chaotic does not mean Random, Chaotic does not relieve you of moral responsibility over your actions.
But what if your Chaotic Good Character is suffering from Kleptomania? Then it is justifiable from a Roleplaying perspective right? (this is why I liked the PnP WFRP, the danger of getting insanities)
Think of the PR scandal if Ribald sells you a weapon you later use to slaughter a village of innocents! "well you know that spawn of bhaal buys all his equipment from that awful Ribald? i wouldn't buy an arrow from that evil business!"
Better to promote Ribald's AdventureMart as the shop for Dragonslayers and Heroes than the shop for tyrants and murderers
It all about marketing baby
Depends on who you want to market it to. There's a lot of money in supplying the bad guys as well...
Comments
I think he works under the assumption that no one is crazy enough to rob him in such a location, but if someone was I'm sure he would do like any normal person would and just give up the goods for free instead of risking his life. That's the one thing I was not always a fan of: if you get caught stealing/pickpocketing they turn hostile. That is kind of weird to me, while I see no problem with reputation playing a factor in shop prices.
It could be, but definitely not always (or even most of the time). If you are Lawful Evil for one. Also if you are an intelligent character who realizes that fighting a million guards would not be worth the benefits. Though I agree that some characters would do this, but that would be best shown in a dialogue rather than a simple reputation system. (I wish that was allowed)
How about another example. A well-known crime lord walks into a store (lawful evil, bad rep in society). He says he forgot his wallet and needs to pick up some stuff. Do you let him do it, or do you deny him service and meet with an "unfortunate accident" soon after?
I always wondered how powerful Ribald was, since he was a former adventurer. I think I'm gonna go load a game and attack him to find out.
...word to the wise... don't attack Ribald Badassman unless your party is pretty strong
(he dual wields Varscona and a regular longsword +2, has a ring of regeneration and a "reaching ring" that gives him and extra 5,6 and 7 level spell)
edit:tried uploading a screenshot but it didn't work...
Multi-class fighter 16/ mage 14
His ability scores:
17
19
18
19
17
17
126 HP
thac0 is 4, AC is 0, does 4-11 damage with 3 attacks
Because being Chaotic DOES NOT justify burglary/theft at will. A thief perhaps cannot be Lawful, but a Chaotic individual does not need to be a thief, or condone theft.
Lawful => Chaotic is not just about obeying laws. It's your instinct and attitudes with regards to Order, Heirachy and Oragnisation, as opposed to Liberty, Anarchy and Freedom.
Whether you can steal something with moral justification on the Good => Evil axis depends on 1) Who you are stealing from. 2) Why you are stealing.
If you steal from hardworking merchants trying to feed their families, or worse, the farmer who's saved all year for a few gold coins he needs to feed his family through the winter, stealing away their life savings is not morally okay 'cos I am Chaotic lulz!', and if you do it on a consistent basis i.e. "steals anything thats not bolted on anyway", then your character is certainly not Good.
Chaotic does not mean Random, Chaotic does not relieve you of moral responsibility over your actions.
The thing is that Ribald is a hard-working and honest merchant. He does not bully or coerce his customers from what we see. Robin Hood, according to centuries of tradition, did not steal from hard working merchants like him, but from thugs and bullies who used their "legitimate" positions to commit legal plunder. The common theme of Robin Hood "stealing from the rich, and giving to the poor" is a very modern Hollywood take. It wold be more accurate to say he "stole from the cruel and gave to the helpless". In fact, in most of the tales Robin and his men were fairly affluent themselves. The fact that he does discriminate between his targets is what makes him "good" and I think that is what Heindrich was referring to.
You can play your character any way you want, but I think it would be more rewarding to play a CG thief as someone who would steal from the Drow merchants, or from the random riff-raff you find in the Dock's District, or the Shadow Thief merchant or even from the Copper Coronet when Lehtinan is still running it! I just can't see it as very enjoyable to play a "good character" who mugs Winthrop or something!
Better to promote Ribald's AdventureMart as the shop for Dragonslayers and Heroes than the shop for tyrants and murderers
It all about marketing baby