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Gorion's alignment may be wrong... *Spoiler*

Just had a thought about Gorion after reading his note he left for you, in which he basically says...

Hey kiddo, if your reading this then I guess am toast. Yup your the bastard spawn of the Lord of Murder. Did I ever tell you about the time after your mother was raped by Bhaal I took her in whilst she was all vurnable and got a bit of loving myself? Good times.

Love, G


Firstly this isnt a dig at how he rushes you out of Candlekeep without no information. This is me merely trying to get my head around that this guy is Lawfully Good, he is a monk, a wizard and a sometimes harper. And he leaves you a letter like that laying around for anybody to read on his bedside cabinet. Shouldnt he at least be CG?

I gotta admit, I was less consumed about avenging him after reading that letter, I mean at least Saverok got a chance to weigh up his options a bit before choosing his path. Gorion was kinda an abusive parent.
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Comments

  • CrucadesCrucades Member Posts: 36
    Korveras had a missed opportunity, instead of doing research and orchestrating mass murder he could have looked around for that letter and used it to troll CHARNAME to death.
  • TwaniTwani Member Posts: 640
    Considering what you find out in ToB, Gorion was probably outright lying to you or living a very... interesting life. I'd consider him CG from that, as well.
  • TwaniTwani Member Posts: 640
    Didn't a bunch of LG Harpers leave and join the Moonstars when Khelben formed his splinter group? Khelben's LN himself, though, and his wife is CG. Hm.
  • CrucadesCrucades Member Posts: 36
    No idea but raising an child under a web of lies and then leaving more lies for said child to find in the event of demise seems as far from lawfully good as it gets. I get Gorion did these things as he thought it would be protect CHARNAME but as far as you know of Gorion from the games, heck he could be chaotic neutral.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    Also, you know that best friend of yours, Imoen? totally not related
  • CrucadesCrucades Member Posts: 36
    Off topic, but during the Time of Troubles just how many kids did Bhaal father? He seemed to get a lot done in 1 year, not including all the other stuff he did and rolling about with Cyric etc

    Gorion must have known a great deal of the issue, yet he tells CHARNAME nothing. He also leaves a potential future god in the hands of Jaheria and Khalid. Am starting to suspect the man was insane.
  • MitchforkMitchfork Member Posts: 390
    Twani said:

    Considering what you find out in ToB, Gorion was probably outright lying to you or living a very... interesting life. I'd consider him CG from that, as well.

    That's more of a ret-con than anything though, I think that the intent was that Gorion was telling the truth but sometime in the ToB development they changed the backstory.

    Not really sure why he wouldn't be Lawful Good. He tried to give Charname the most normal life he could under the circumstances. The letter in the cabinet was a last-resort thing and it's pretty clear that Gorion would have told you himself when he felt the time was right.
  • RhaellaRhaella Member, Developer Posts: 178
    Twani said:

    Didn't a bunch of LG Harpers leave and join the Moonstars when Khelben formed his splinter group? Khelben's LN himself, though, and his wife is CG. Hm.

    @Twani - Pretty sure the Moonstars run the gambit all the way into evil when it comes to alignment. I don't think they're primarily LG, though. Waaay too secretive for that.

    On a related note, there is a Harper paladin in Waterdeep called Eather Heilean who apparently "deals" with Moonstar defectors (which kind of creeps me out since they're a force for good too, but okay) and is trying to make the Harpers more open in their dealings there, so I guess that's one example of a LG Harper.

    I'm mostly okay with Gorion as LG, though, since we know so little about him. It's only the pallies who aren't supposed to lie at all, and he did have the whole planning thing down pretty well. It's weird that "I was sleeping with your priestess of Bhaal mother" is his go to cover story, but Harpers seem to lead colorful love lives in general.
  • VallahadVallahad Member Posts: 10
    Mitchfork said:

    Twani said:

    Considering what you find out in ToB, Gorion was probably outright lying to you or living a very... interesting life. I'd consider him CG from that, as well.

    That's more of a ret-con than anything though, I think that the intent was that Gorion was telling the truth but sometime in the ToB development they changed the backstory.

    Not really sure why he wouldn't be Lawful Good. He tried to give Charname the most normal life he could under the circumstances. The letter in the cabinet was a last-resort thing and it's pretty clear that Gorion would have told you himself when he felt the time was right.
    Very insightful comment above. I'm an amateur writer, so I can vouch for the possibility that you can change the storyline slightly to suit the needs of the new instalment. It can be a real challenge to balance moral alignment of the characters with the direction that the story seems to be progressing in.

    As for Gorian constant lying, or at the least withholding of vital information, that can be put down to the old adage, "The road to hell is paved in good intentions."

    Or my personal favourite, Billy Connelly: "Would you rather someone said 'Good Morning' and not mean it, or 'F*ck off' and mean it."

    Morals really are tricky things if you think about it.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited February 2014
    Crucades said:

    Off topic, but during the Time of Troubles just how many kids did Bhaal father? He seemed to get a lot done in 1 year, not including all the other stuff he did and rolling about with Cyric etc

    Bhaal had these offspring before the time of troubles began.
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307

    Also, you know that best friend of yours, Imoen? totally not related

    Yeah, I'm totally going to raise you in a situation that absolutely would prevent youthful crushes and/or awkward teenage experimentation...
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    I'm not sure you can accurately read someone's alignment based on the scant little that we actually know about the man. He may have any number of perfectly valid and lawful good reasons for telling the "Version of the truth" that he did. Lawful good does not mean that he won't lie. It means that he operates under a code of conduct and believes in doing the right thing. Nothing suggests he wasn't attempting to do the right thing.

    Even if we were to consider lying a non-lawful act, alignment is a continuum, not a single point. A person can do things contrary to their alignment and still remain 'in the realm' of that alignment. Life is messy.
  • NecomancerNecomancer Member Posts: 622
    edited February 2014
    Honestly, I think Gorion's story was suppose to be right but they changed it in ToB for shock value. Something wich always irked me more then alittle. That being said, it could also be the letter was a form of venting. It might have been something he wrote to deal with his overwhelming worry that he'd die before he informed you what happened.

    As for rushing you out of Candlekeep, he was probably under alot of pressure to do so and was still unsure how to tell you the truth. Should he lie and spare you pain, or tell the flat out truth and risk emotional break down on your part? You have lived a peaceful life, and putting the weight of this truth on you? He might have felt it was too much truth at once.
  • LordInsaneLordInsane Member Posts: 38
    elminster said:

    Crucades said:

    Off topic, but during the Time of Troubles just how many kids did Bhaal father? He seemed to get a lot done in 1 year, not including all the other stuff he did and rolling about with Cyric etc

    Bhaal had these offspring before the time of troubles began.
    Many of them, at least, given ageing issues (and of course the other two of a certain trio had already set up their contingencies by that time).
  • EnterHaerDalisEnterHaerDalis Member Posts: 813
    Koveras*
  • SkaffenSkaffen Member Posts: 709

    Even if we were to consider lying a non-lawful act, alignment is a continuum, not a single point. A person can do things contrary to their alignment and still remain 'in the realm' of that alignment.

    Except if you're doing the hell trials...

  • NecomancerNecomancer Member Posts: 622
    Skaffen said:

    Even if we were to consider lying a non-lawful act, alignment is a continuum, not a single point. A person can do things contrary to their alignment and still remain 'in the realm' of that alignment.

    Except if you're doing the hell trials...

    Well, there are certain levels. For example, lying? You can still be lawful good and lie. Just don't make it a constant thing. However murdering small children in their beds and desecrating their corpse for the greater glory of Het, evil god of child murdering? That might make your alignment change faster
  • SkaffenSkaffen Member Posts: 709
    Exactly, your examples are just like putting on a ragged old cloak or killing your arch-enemy that murdered your fister-father in front of your eyes! Evil to the bone! :)
  • MitchforkMitchfork Member Posts: 390
    Skaffen said:

    Exactly, your examples are just like putting on a ragged old cloak or killing your arch-enemy that murdered your fister-father in front of your eyes! Evil to the bone! :)

    The nymph cloak is a bit bullshit in my opinion (a neutral character at least should be able to take the cloak with no alignment change) but I think that the Sarevok trial is alright enough. I mean you have to kill him either way, the test is just supposed to gauge whether your character will give into the influence of Bhaal inside of them and use the Slayer form.
  • BARBAROSSABARBAROSSA Member Posts: 17
    *you're.
  • LordInsaneLordInsane Member Posts: 38
    It is also arguable that the circumstances of the Hell Trials amplifies any drift in the evil direction. Evil in D&D is a tangible thing, after all, and the Hell Trials occur in a place deeply steeped in it (and this specific part of it has an extra connection to you).
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251

    *you're.

    Well that changes everything!
  • CrucadesCrucades Member Posts: 36

    Skaffen said:

    Even if we were to consider lying a non-lawful act, alignment is a continuum, not a single point. A person can do things contrary to their alignment and still remain 'in the realm' of that alignment.

    Except if you're doing the hell trials...

    Well, there are certain levels. For example, lying? You can still be lawful good and lie. Just don't make it a constant thing. However murdering small children in their beds and desecrating their corpse for the greater glory of Het, evil god of child murdering? That might make your alignment change faster
    Gorion fed CHARNAME nothing but lies all his life, and even after death.
  • TwaniTwani Member Posts: 640
    I agree that in the time of BG1, Gorion's letter was probably supposed to be true, but by ToB it isn't. Maybe it's discourteous to Gorion, but the story has changed, and looking back, we can't just say 'retcon' in character. So either... Gorion was dating a priestess of Bhaal, or he lied through his teeth because he didn't want to tell the Bhaalspawn 'Not only is your father the dead god of murder, but your mother tried to sacrifice you as soon as you were born! :D'. I think writing a small lie so that CHARNAME doesn't suffer more then they have to isn't unreasonable... but I'm not sure it's the most lawful thing around.

    Then again, we know so little about Gorion that it's hard to say. The game says Lawful Good, so I'll go with assuming that's correct, even though if I was DMing the story, I probably would have made him CG.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    edited February 2014
    Skaffen said:

    Even if we were to consider lying a non-lawful act, alignment is a continuum, not a single point. A person can do things contrary to their alignment and still remain 'in the realm' of that alignment.

    Except if you're doing the hell trials...

    the hell trials aren't just about 'Telling a lie'. There's a Whole lot to that situation that makes it pretty un-redemptive, like deciding to keep and wear a cloak made out of the skins of several dead nymphs. Even so, just doing one "Evil" trial and the rest good will not change your alignment. You have to do the majority Evil to get that outcome.

    Which was more or less my point. A Lawful Good alignment only means that they live by a code of conduct and try to always do the right thing. Neither one 'necessarily' precludes lying.

    And even if it does (which I don't buy for a second), a few lies in a life that is on balance mostly about telling the truth, will not shift your alignment 'Enough' to make a difference.

    Gorion told Charname a version of the truth that would allow, in Gorion's view, Charname to grow up more or less normal. the stories about how and where Charname originally came from were not 'Necessary' to tell a small child until he or she was old enough to know the truth and therefore telling him may have done more harm than good. There's not harm in that as far as I can see.
    Post edited by the_spyder on
  • MitchforkMitchfork Member Posts: 390
    Twani said:

    I agree that in the time of BG1, Gorion's letter was probably supposed to be true, but by ToB it isn't. Maybe it's discourteous to Gorion, but the story has changed, and looking back, we can't just say 'retcon' in character. So either... Gorion was dating a priestess of Bhaal, or he lied through his teeth because he didn't want to tell the Bhaalspawn 'Not only is your father the dead god of murder, but your mother tried to sacrifice you as soon as you were born! :D'. I think writing a small lie so that CHARNAME doesn't suffer more then they have to isn't unreasonable... but I'm not sure it's the most lawful thing around.

    Then again, we know so little about Gorion that it's hard to say. The game says Lawful Good, so I'll go with assuming that's correct, even though if I was DMing the story, I probably would have made him CG.

    I don't think you're wrong interpreting it like that. I don't know if there's any "accepted" way to handle retcons to a series, but I tend to try and maintain the intent of the narrative over the factual changes. It was definitely handled a bit sloppily either way, though.
    Crucades said:

    Skaffen said:

    Even if we were to consider lying a non-lawful act, alignment is a continuum, not a single point. A person can do things contrary to their alignment and still remain 'in the realm' of that alignment.

    Except if you're doing the hell trials...

    Well, there are certain levels. For example, lying? You can still be lawful good and lie. Just don't make it a constant thing. However murdering small children in their beds and desecrating their corpse for the greater glory of Het, evil god of child murdering? That might make your alignment change faster
    Gorion fed CHARNAME nothing but lies all his life, and even after death.
    "Nothing but lies" is pretty melodramatic. He withheld the truth about your father, and depending on how you interpret the ToB story changes he might have lied about your mother as well. Other than that there's nothing to suggest that he was a bad parent. The guy did die for you, after all.

    the hell trials aren't just about 'Telling a lie'. There's a Whole lot to that situation that makes it pretty un-redemptive, like deciding to keep and wear a cloak made out of the skins of several dead nymphs. Even so, just doing one "Evil" trial and the rest good will not change your alignment. You have to do the majority Evil to get that outcome.

    Actually I'm pretty sure it does work this way, one slip-up and you're toast. Someone might correct me on that but I think the alignment change is applied as soon as you redeem the first evil tear.
  • CrucadesCrucades Member Posts: 36
    Mitchfork said:



    Gorion fed CHARNAME nothing but lies all his life, and even after death.

    "Nothing but lies" is pretty melodramatic. He withheld the truth about your father, and depending on how you interpret the ToB story changes he might have lied about your mother as well. Other than that there's nothing to suggest that he was a bad parent. The guy did die for you, after all.



    Nothing to suggest, other than the fact CHARNAME grows up in isolation under the pretense of a lie with no friends other than a girl that was, whatever way you look at it, lied about as well.

    I think by looking at the bigger picture, his reasons are irrelevant in regards to him being Lawfully Good, it just doesnt work out. CHARNAME is effectively manipulated due to the fact Gorion even knows that no matter what happens, the blood of Bhaal will start its corruption and CHARNAME needs to take the most painful route to a resolution due to Gorions actions.
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