@Andrea Columbo I always assumed the part of Nashkel you saw was only the main drag, so to speak, and that more people lived where you couldn't get to.
@LadyRhian Have to agree with you on all counts...I always thought Liches were solitary creatures who holed up away from population centers. I also agree it is about time Waterdeep got a deep and interesting look, I think BG3 might want to take place in Waterdeep
To me, Baldur's Gate was a good representation as the city as a whole. It was complete with no missing parts. I enjoyed the immersion that one could feel while playing in that city. Athkatla, while suitable to the game, wasn't nearly the same thing. It never felt like a city to me and I never was able to be quite as immersed in the game when playing in that section. Don't get me wrong, BG2 is one of my all-time favorites, but the city was just lacking in a way that Baldur's Gate wasn't. Call me spoiled!
@immagikman I was positing a BG3 about a child of Sarevok and Tamoko. Since at the end of BG2, one of Sarevok's possible fates was to return her body to her homeland, she could have gotten pregnant and hidden it from him when she was feeling wary about him wanting to become the new Lord of Murder. Thus, her child grows up in the Realms, without knowing either parent. There is a certain power that comes with being the offspring of a Bhaalspawn, so people are out to control you for this nebulous power that you wield. At the same time, you want to find out why you have this power and who your parents were, and that ties back into the Bhaalspawn saga.
Personally, I hope that the next game has either Waterdeep (so many things to see and do, so many places to go, and so many people to meet!) or the Dales. Maybe even both.
Baldurs Gate 3: Bhaalspawn Bhaalspawn A young Bhaalspawn's adventures from Waterdeep to Westgate?
I voted for Baldur's Gate only because I enjoyed longing to get into the city then when I did it just seemed full but before hand you have plenty of places to explore. Whereas Athlanka, you start in and discover there is not very much outside of the city. I've always missed the non-quest and random places to explore and Hobgoblins with +2 swords.
BG2 in general the areas were mostly quest related with pre-programed "you've been waylaid by enemies and must defend yourself!" ambushes. Most of the rambling took place in the city which I didn't feel as...epic? Adventury? I don't know I just didn't feel like I explored myself very much without driving forward the plot or someones quest whereas in Baldur's Gate I'd be like "Oh a new area that looks cool. Ok, basilisks these look cool OMG WTF INSTAKILL?!"
I think Athlanka's a great city, I just didn't like it been handed to us. Like people complained during the last game that they got to Baldur's Gate too late or something.
Baldur's Gate is the better city. It has frankly more of a city feel to it because you can visit the entire city. You don't get that with Athkatla.
Not only that, but I don't have to reference someone elses spelling whenever I try to remember how to spell the word (unlike a certain capital of Amn).
Athkatla, the city seems very atmospheric, waukeens promenade is definitely a favourite of mine. Personally I never found the lack of houses a problem because the city map made it clear you were only visiting areas of the city that had areas of interest. Houses where people live not so interesting really...
Also lots of things to do and see. Main disappointment with bg2 cities is that Athkatla was the only decent sized city in bg2, as opposed to towns like trademeet. The fish people city and the drow city would of been amazing if they were the same size as Athkatla, with a similar amount of side quests.
One problem with Athkatla was that it saved time to just sleep on the street than finding an inn. Also, they should have at one point rebuild waukeens promenade. and the most annoying thing in the world was being forced to be ambushed by that twerp Gaelen Bael and his dialog of "coo" before being allowed to explore the city. When I play this game next Im going to kill him when I see him. If I can.
@Blakes7 But the lack of houses made the city seem fake, like nobody really lived there. And the number of liches that inhabited that city was very over the top. It seemed like there was one in practically every district. Very strange for a city that supposedly prohibits magic use.
There are parts of Athkatla which don't seem to have been thought through very well. In the Bridge District the Temple of Helm is in an ordinary house and unless I'm missing something the only way to get into Delosar's Inn from the street is to walk through Captain Dennis's bedroom. In the Temple District you can't get into the High Hall of the Most Radiant Heart through the front door, you have to take the tradesmen's entrance.
But my main problem with Athkatla is that everything feels programmed. You can't just wander round the city and take in the sights.
@Blakes7 But the lack of houses made the city seem fake, like nobody really lived there. And the number of liches that inhabited that city was very over the top. It seemed like there was one in practically every district. Very strange for a city that supposedly prohibits magic use.
What do you think it was like BEFORE they outlawed magic? Really really bad, like a lich under every rock. Nothing ruins your day like going out to a restaurant and then finding a demi-lich in your salad. I tell you, the people demanded action! And so, magic was restricted to licensed operators (the cowled wizards, and anyone who can afford to bribe said wizards).
@LadyRhian Have to agree with you on all counts...I always thought Liches were solitary creatures who holed up away from population centers. I also agree it is about time Waterdeep got a deep and interesting look, I think BG3 might want to take place in Waterdeep
i think this is why i liked the city better in SoA, i've always been more of a loner by nature, and with how crowded baldur's gate seemed, i was always glad to get out of the city and just go kill things. But being around that many people in real life is always uncomfortable for me as i sorta feel people out, and it's just both draining and uncomfortable.
SoA, most people were inside so it never felt like there were too many people around like in the first game. A few people here and there, spread out, but there were always people around at all hours of the night. Just me, but i will always feel much more at home in Athkatla.
Edit: @LadyRhian said 'Very strange for a city that supposedly prohibits magic use.'
Lol, silly girl, don't know that the more you prohibit something, the more of it there will be, typically in an 'underground' scene. I think the numerous liches where sort of a joke/commentary on that.
@Sceptenar Nah, it just means the Liches pwn (and I am using that in a very gamer sense) the Cowled Wizards. Do you know what it's like to get teabagged by a lich? Trust me, you don't want to find out!
While I do prefer Baldur's Gate, I must say that I quite enjoyed the random wall Liches and Wall Pirates in Athlatka. Termites are problem enough, but when you have something living in your walls that can Time Stop and Abi-Dazzim you to death you might as well just move.
@ladyrhian also, so long as a game is challenging without being cheap, i typically don't question why an enemy is there. maybe i need to play better games, but i really miss the days of what many call 'nintendo hard' numerous liches in the city were a great challenge, and gaxx usually stomps me.
only cheap part is that it seems maze and the other spell are a bit cheap as it insta kills you in vanillia. But that one at least is offset with immunities. Guess now is a good time to ask if there's any familure dnd games that are fairly long, hard, and rewarding. hopefully nothing too old as my comp has a minimum of 640 by 480 resolution, but prefer something at least 800 x 600. I used a 32 lcd monitor and hard to see games much lower then 8x6 resolution.
@Bjjorick Well, there were the SSI Gold Box games. Those ran on 1e rules. I didn't play many other D&D type games, because they came out mostly for the PC, and I have always had a Macintosh. I also enjoyed the Nintendo Hard Roguelike game Angband (there's a MacAngband and 20 million (exaggeration) variants. Newer games like Fate are very RPG like, but more like Diablo than Baldur's Gate. There are also the old school RPGS Exile/Avernum (Exile being the originals, and they have become Avernum in the newest versions). The graphics are very... limited, but the stories are really good. The Same developer, Jeff Smith, did a game set in the Celtic Era called Nethergate, with the same graphics and another interesting story, in which you could either play as the Celts or the Romans.
@ladyrhian can you tell me a bit about the story in the games, not like spoilers? if ti's too much that's cool, but i've always been drawn to a good story. i prefer good story to gameplay. de'arsine keep where there's an army approaching your keep (last quest if i recall correctly), you go outside and there's maybe 6 people on their side, you're outnumbered according to story, but in reality, you have 6 people in your party plus 4 or 5 hired helpers, so they're vastly outnumbered. that still bugs me.
story to gameplay for me, i understand limitations. you can't render a battle that large at that time. simple, have alot of npc's standing around wearing armor, you challenge the enemy commander to a dual, make it an EXCELLENT 1 on 1 fight with banter flying on both sides. problem solved.
as i've mentioned numerous times before i'm a bit picky. i like a good execution of story to gameplay, but story remains top priority imho. Any further details you could give would be awesome.
@Bjjorick I am assuming you mean the Exile/Avernum games, right? Okay, the first game's backstory is that there is this Empire that is so old and large, it no longer has a formal name, everyone just calls it "The Empire". It rules the surface world, but demands a high level of conformity from its citizens. Because you and your party don't fit in, you are exiled from the surface and sent to where misfits and malefactors are sent- to a slow certain death underground. But the Empire didn't count on how resourceful people could be, and their misfits set up their own country underground, which they call Exile/Avernum. They even have a King. However, they are being menaced by two races that live underground- the Catlike Nephilim and the Reptilian Slithkzerai. When you are thrown into this underground land, the powers of Exile/Avernum give you some equipment to get you started, and let you off to survive on your own.
As adventurers, you do tasks for people, and as you become more trusted and survive, you eventually make your way to the caverns where the King rules, and you get asked to help with revenge for the people sent here. Find six bracelets hidden all over the underground, and get teleported back to the surface to take out Emperor Hawthorne, the leader of the Empire. If you can find all six, you can eventually be teleported back afterwards. Otherwise, you die on the surface.
The second game takes place with a new party. With the Death of Emperor Hawthorne, the Empire has realized that Exile/Avernum exists and is a massive threat. So they send down their most powerful mages and troops to kill off the Exiles/Avernites. Exile/Avernum fights back, but strange monsters and magical walls have appeared between the caverns that none of their magic can deal with, so they send your party to go see if it's from the Empire, or something else, because the monsters and walls are making it harder for them to fight off the Empire troops. As it turns out, there is another race that shares your cavern homes, and they are responsible for the monsters and walls. The Vahnatai are upset because the Empire stole the souls of some of their leaders, who are encased in special crystals, to experiment on. These Crystal Souls are important to the Vahnatai, but they can't tell the difference between the human Exiles/Avernites and the human Empire soldiers. You have to convince them that it's the Empire who is responsible for the theft, and steal the souls back to get them to help you against the Empire.
Continued in a bit, in another post. AAAAAh! Wall of text!
@Bjjorick In the third game, since the death of their invasion force, the Empire has gone quiet. The Exiles/Avernites have constructed several teleporters that have taken them to caverns very near the surface. They send out several expeditionary forces, but none come back. You and your new party are the next force sent out, and while people on the surface look at you strangely for your pale and pasty skin, they have no time to actively discriminate against you, as monsters are spawning everywhere on the surface. You tell your superiors about this, and they hope that if they help the Empire against the monsters, the Empire will be happy to allow the Exiles/Avernites to come back to the surface and stay. They also have a new ruler, Emperor Hawthorne's daughter, and she seems open to letting you stay on the surface. But the problems above actually come from below, and you have to work out who is plaguing the Empire with these invasions of monsters. Is is an Avernite Rebel Wizard, or your allies, the Vahnatai?
Exile ended with #3, but the Avernum series had three more games. In #4, which takes place hundreds of years later, Avernum still exists, because not everyone wanted to return to the surface, and some people from the Empire were curious about the Underground world and make it a tourist destination. But now bandits are increasing, and three shades have appeared in various Avernite cities, and your new party must find out the cause of these events.
In #5, You play as soldiers of the Empire, sent to the underground Realm to hunt the assassin Dorikas. As you search for him in Avernum, you must deal with the fact that some in the Empire want to return to the bad old Days (but glorious ones) under Emperor Hawthorne. You must choose sides and decide who you want to win in the conflict.
In #6, you return to the side of Avernum, which has undergone several disasters. The mushrooms that provide food for Avernum have been struck with a blight which is killing them and making them poisonous. Also, one of the teleporters has been destroyed, and Demons are pouring into Avernum. Lastly, several groups are seeking to take over Avernum, and each want different things from you and your party. Again, you have to pick sides and decide who you want to rule Avernum.
There is also a stand-alone game, Blades of Avernum, that allows you to create your own adventures with the Avernum engine and art. It also comes with four adventures for you to play, one on the surface, and three underground.
Again, great storytelling, not so great (or maybe lousy, it depends on your taste) art and very limited sounds, but I love the games.
@ladyrhian thank you for the time you spent typing that for me, and i never mind a good wall of text. i typically have trouble condensing what i'm thinking down to a few lines, and when i do, i typically confuse the issue. it sounds like a good story, and art isn't a big deal for me. don't get me wrong, looking at a nice work of art is always a good thing, but story is art, and that is the biggest and most important piece of art imho. A few questions if you don't mind.
From the sound of it, you play as different chars in each game. You mentioned that from part 1 to 2, but does part 3 start with a different party. the overview you gave can have it so it's actually one game broken up. part 4 for sure starts new chars, and if i get into the first 3, will give part 4 a try, but that's a way's away.
as far as part 1, you mention that there is a catlike and reptile like race. i know it's possibly clichè, but any chance you get a party member from either or both races? sort of an outcase like viconia was? Or is it in the old style, where you form your full party from the beginning. That's not my favorite style, but again, i know there were many limitations in those days. I just think that the companionship of characters you don't create adds much to the game. Sort of like minsc, who is a very valuable fighter, but you have to make sacrafices to keep him happy rather then just creating whatever you want and that person is there as a brother/best friend and will never betray you no matter what. Not a game killer, but a huge preference.
last question. Big one here. What's the difficulty like. I'm sure it will get easier by/at part 4 where the game probably went a bit mainstream, but how difficult is it? hopefully hard enough to be enjoyable all the way though. Again, not cheap, but more of a learn and grow. megaman 2 was one of the first hard games i played growing up but i got so skilled at it that i could beat it however i liked, but it still challenges me to this day. I don't expect that from many games, but i would like to know at least that i will be forced to think and improvise alot. Thank you again for your time, and see what i mean about Wall 'o text? Greatest attack ever.
@Bjjorick Yes, each game starts with, essentially, a level 1 party. And no, in the first game, Sliths and Nephilim are adversaries only. But starting with game 2, they can join the party. Sliths are good with pole weapons, and Nephilim with bows. You control all the game characters yourself. It's like the gold box games in that way.
Difficulty is settable by you. There are four levels: Easy, Normal, Hard and Torment. Hard and Torment up the damage dealt by enemies and enemy HP and Spell Points. Normal is fine by me. I died a few times (early Sliths will kill your party dead- they take more damage from cold-based spells, but early on, your party has few of those, and few HP as well. And they all have Slith Spears, which are like a spear with a two-tined head. I used to joke they were barbecue forks to hold your butt over the fire...
Here's the website. The games are shareware, so you can play for a good hour or two before you hit anywhere you need to pay for... http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/
@LadyRhian ooooh, looks tactical from the picture. Downloading now and will start it up later tonight. Thank you again for the help. As far as the difficulty settings, i consider it cheating when the enemy uses the same weapon as you but it has different effects. I like a balanced difficult game, such as the reptiles are as strong as humans but they outnumber you 3 to 1, and every encounter shows it. They have the same equips as you, just as strong, but they zerg you.
Again though, do you make your chars or do people join you like in BG? i didn't see anything stated on the page.
@Bjjorick You make your own characters. Exile (Pre-vista) could handle up to six party members, the newer games on the new Engine can only do 4. Generally, I go with 2 fighters, a cleric and a mage, although depending on what you spend exp on, eventually they can all cast spells of all types. Strength boosts weapon damage, Endurance hit points, Intelligence spell points. Dexterity helps you hit more.
Comments
Have to agree with you on all counts...I always thought Liches were solitary creatures who holed up away from population centers. I also agree it is about time Waterdeep got a deep and interesting look, I think BG3 might want to take place in Waterdeep
A young Bhaalspawn's adventures from Waterdeep to Westgate?
BG2 in general the areas were mostly quest related with pre-programed "you've been waylaid by enemies and must defend yourself!" ambushes. Most of the rambling took place in the city which I didn't feel as...epic? Adventury? I don't know I just didn't feel like I explored myself very much without driving forward the plot or someones quest whereas in Baldur's Gate I'd be like "Oh a new area that looks cool. Ok, basilisks these look cool OMG WTF INSTAKILL?!"
I think Athlanka's a great city, I just didn't like it been handed to us. Like people complained during the last game that they got to Baldur's Gate too late or something.
Not only that, but I don't have to reference someone elses spelling whenever I try to remember how to spell the word (unlike a certain capital of Amn).
Also lots of things to do and see. Main disappointment with bg2 cities is that Athkatla was the only decent sized city in bg2, as opposed to towns like trademeet. The fish people city and the drow city would of been amazing if they were the same size as Athkatla, with a similar amount of side quests.
But my main problem with Athkatla is that everything feels programmed. You can't just wander round the city and take in the sights.
SoA, most people were inside so it never felt like there were too many people around like in the first game. A few people here and there, spread out, but there were always people around at all hours of the night. Just me, but i will always feel much more at home in Athkatla.
Edit: @LadyRhian said 'Very strange for a city that supposedly prohibits magic use.'
Lol, silly girl, don't know that the more you prohibit something, the more of it there will be, typically in an 'underground' scene. I think the numerous liches where sort of a joke/commentary on that.
@Bjjorick Liches are the 1% (solemn nod).
only cheap part is that it seems maze and the other spell are a bit cheap as it insta kills you in vanillia. But that one at least is offset with immunities. Guess now is a good time to ask if there's any familure dnd games that are fairly long, hard, and rewarding. hopefully nothing too old as my comp has a minimum of 640 by 480 resolution, but prefer something at least 800 x 600. I used a 32 lcd monitor and hard to see games much lower then 8x6 resolution.
story to gameplay for me, i understand limitations. you can't render a battle that large at that time. simple, have alot of npc's standing around wearing armor, you challenge the enemy commander to a dual, make it an EXCELLENT 1 on 1 fight with banter flying on both sides. problem solved.
as i've mentioned numerous times before i'm a bit picky. i like a good execution of story to gameplay, but story remains top priority imho. Any further details you could give would be awesome.
As adventurers, you do tasks for people, and as you become more trusted and survive, you eventually make your way to the caverns where the King rules, and you get asked to help with revenge for the people sent here. Find six bracelets hidden all over the underground, and get teleported back to the surface to take out Emperor Hawthorne, the leader of the Empire. If you can find all six, you can eventually be teleported back afterwards. Otherwise, you die on the surface.
The second game takes place with a new party. With the Death of Emperor Hawthorne, the Empire has realized that Exile/Avernum exists and is a massive threat. So they send down their most powerful mages and troops to kill off the Exiles/Avernites. Exile/Avernum fights back, but strange monsters and magical walls have appeared between the caverns that none of their magic can deal with, so they send your party to go see if it's from the Empire, or something else, because the monsters and walls are making it harder for them to fight off the Empire troops. As it turns out, there is another race that shares your cavern homes, and they are responsible for the monsters and walls. The Vahnatai are upset because the Empire stole the souls of some of their leaders, who are encased in special crystals, to experiment on. These Crystal Souls are important to the Vahnatai, but they can't tell the difference between the human Exiles/Avernites and the human Empire soldiers. You have to convince them that it's the Empire who is responsible for the theft, and steal the souls back to get them to help you against the Empire.
Continued in a bit, in another post. AAAAAh! Wall of text!
Exile ended with #3, but the Avernum series had three more games. In #4, which takes place hundreds of years later, Avernum still exists, because not everyone wanted to return to the surface, and some people from the Empire were curious about the Underground world and make it a tourist destination. But now bandits are increasing, and three shades have appeared in various Avernite cities, and your new party must find out the cause of these events.
In #5, You play as soldiers of the Empire, sent to the underground Realm to hunt the assassin Dorikas. As you search for him in Avernum, you must deal with the fact that some in the Empire want to return to the bad old Days (but glorious ones) under Emperor Hawthorne. You must choose sides and decide who you want to win in the conflict.
In #6, you return to the side of Avernum, which has undergone several disasters. The mushrooms that provide food for Avernum have been struck with a blight which is killing them and making them poisonous. Also, one of the teleporters has been destroyed, and Demons are pouring into Avernum. Lastly, several groups are seeking to take over Avernum, and each want different things from you and your party. Again, you have to pick sides and decide who you want to rule Avernum.
There is also a stand-alone game, Blades of Avernum, that allows you to create your own adventures with the Avernum engine and art. It also comes with four adventures for you to play, one on the surface, and three underground.
Again, great storytelling, not so great (or maybe lousy, it depends on your taste) art and very limited sounds, but I love the games.
From the sound of it, you play as different chars in each game. You mentioned that from part 1 to 2, but does part 3 start with a different party. the overview you gave can have it so it's actually one game broken up. part 4 for sure starts new chars, and if i get into the first 3, will give part 4 a try, but that's a way's away.
as far as part 1, you mention that there is a catlike and reptile like race. i know it's possibly clichè, but any chance you get a party member from either or both races? sort of an outcase like viconia was? Or is it in the old style, where you form your full party from the beginning. That's not my favorite style, but again, i know there were many limitations in those days. I just think that the companionship of characters you don't create adds much to the game. Sort of like minsc, who is a very valuable fighter, but you have to make sacrafices to keep him happy rather then just creating whatever you want and that person is there as a brother/best friend and will never betray you no matter what. Not a game killer, but a huge preference.
last question. Big one here. What's the difficulty like. I'm sure it will get easier by/at part 4 where the game probably went a bit mainstream, but how difficult is it? hopefully hard enough to be enjoyable all the way though. Again, not cheap, but more of a learn and grow. megaman 2 was one of the first hard games i played growing up but i got so skilled at it that i could beat it however i liked, but it still challenges me to this day. I don't expect that from many games, but i would like to know at least that i will be forced to think and improvise alot. Thank you again for your time, and see what i mean about Wall 'o text? Greatest attack ever.
Difficulty is settable by you. There are four levels: Easy, Normal, Hard and Torment. Hard and Torment up the damage dealt by enemies and enemy HP and Spell Points. Normal is fine by me. I died a few times (early Sliths will kill your party dead- they take more damage from cold-based spells, but early on, your party has few of those, and few HP as well. And they all have Slith Spears, which are like a spear with a two-tined head. I used to joke they were barbecue forks to hold your butt over the fire...
Here's the website. The games are shareware, so you can play for a good hour or two before you hit anywhere you need to pay for... http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/
Again though, do you make your chars or do people join you like in BG? i didn't see anything stated on the page.
And you're welcome!
But I'm partial to Neverwinter