[Request] More BG1 NPCs in BG2:EE; ex party members start with you
AndreaColombo
Member Posts: 5,530
BACKGROUND INFO:
There is one thing that has always bothered me about Baldur's Gate II: it took for granted that I had beaten Baldur's Gate with a party composed of Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid, Minsc and Dynaheir; arbitrarily took Khalid and Dynhaeir out of the equation by making them dead; and strong-armed me into recruiting Minsc and Jaheira at the beginning of the game (I'm not going to complain about Imoen since a) she's your closest friend, so her presence kinda makes sense; b) her presence serves the story and can't be discarded). It is true that my first time through Baldur's Gate happened with that very party configuration, but the game shouldn't be making assumptions on my choices and playing style.
Also, I understand that characters in Baldur's Gate II had more psychological depth due to banters, interjections and romances, and that's probably the reason why the number of joinable NPCs got cut from 25 in Baldur's Gate to 17 in Baldur's Gate II (including Sarevok, who is only recruitable in ToB). However, I was severely disappointed not to find some of my old acquaintances in Baldur's Gate II (especially Dynaheir, as I was quite fond of her); or to meet some of them who apparently lost their will to travel with me after being so anxious to do so in Baldur's Gate. The way some of them are dealt with, like Ajantis' ridiculous cameo or Faldorn's spurious presence in the Druids' Groove, was not to my liking at all.
MY REQUEST:
1. It is fine if you're introducing one new NPC to Baldur's Gate in BG:EE, and he should totally carry on with you in BG2:EE as well. However, when it comes to BG2:EE I believe priority should be given to adding more NPCs from BG1, before you wrote new ones in. BG2:EE definitely needs a bigger number of additional joinable NPCs to match BG1, and there are some BG1 characters that are still unaccounted for (e.g. Alora, Eldoth and Skie, Shar'Teel...). It would be really good if they could be there. The alleged death of Dynaheir, as well as the stupid cameo-death of Ajantis, could and should be reversed and the characters added to BG2:EE as joinable NPCs (and make Dynaheir romanceable, for crying out loud!
). Same applies to Faldorn, Coran and Safana.
2. When importing your final save from BG:EE to start a new game in BG2:EE, your party members should be recognized and, if available as joinable NPCs in BG2:EE, they should be imprisoned with you instead of Minsc and Jaheira. The latter could be made available for recruitment in another game area. Imoen must obviously be there for plot reasons, so at least one of your party members will mandatorily have to be swapped for Imoen.
3. If you start a brand new BG2:EE game without loading your BG:EE final save, the NPCs that start the game with you should be randomized among the BG1 NPCs that are joinable in BG2:EE, and according to CHARNAME's alignment (good with good, evil with evil, anything with neutral). The number of joinable NPCs would still be two plus Imoen, as it is now in BG2, in order to not break the game balance.
I can see a game balance problem with item #2 if a player beats BG:EE with a party comprising five NPCs that are also joinable in BG2:EE. This way, they'd start BG2:EE with a complete party of six as opposed to the current party of four. This can be dealt with in two ways:
a. Make the difficulty of Chateau Irenicus scalable depending on the number of party members you start the game with.
b. Find a way to justify the absence of two random members of your BG:EE party that doesn't involve their death, and make them available for recruitment soon after leaving that dungeon.
And now, I think I'll make a separate thread for scalable difficulty.
There is one thing that has always bothered me about Baldur's Gate II: it took for granted that I had beaten Baldur's Gate with a party composed of Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid, Minsc and Dynaheir; arbitrarily took Khalid and Dynhaeir out of the equation by making them dead; and strong-armed me into recruiting Minsc and Jaheira at the beginning of the game (I'm not going to complain about Imoen since a) she's your closest friend, so her presence kinda makes sense; b) her presence serves the story and can't be discarded). It is true that my first time through Baldur's Gate happened with that very party configuration, but the game shouldn't be making assumptions on my choices and playing style.
Also, I understand that characters in Baldur's Gate II had more psychological depth due to banters, interjections and romances, and that's probably the reason why the number of joinable NPCs got cut from 25 in Baldur's Gate to 17 in Baldur's Gate II (including Sarevok, who is only recruitable in ToB). However, I was severely disappointed not to find some of my old acquaintances in Baldur's Gate II (especially Dynaheir, as I was quite fond of her); or to meet some of them who apparently lost their will to travel with me after being so anxious to do so in Baldur's Gate. The way some of them are dealt with, like Ajantis' ridiculous cameo or Faldorn's spurious presence in the Druids' Groove, was not to my liking at all.
MY REQUEST:
1. It is fine if you're introducing one new NPC to Baldur's Gate in BG:EE, and he should totally carry on with you in BG2:EE as well. However, when it comes to BG2:EE I believe priority should be given to adding more NPCs from BG1, before you wrote new ones in. BG2:EE definitely needs a bigger number of additional joinable NPCs to match BG1, and there are some BG1 characters that are still unaccounted for (e.g. Alora, Eldoth and Skie, Shar'Teel...). It would be really good if they could be there. The alleged death of Dynaheir, as well as the stupid cameo-death of Ajantis, could and should be reversed and the characters added to BG2:EE as joinable NPCs (and make Dynaheir romanceable, for crying out loud!
). Same applies to Faldorn, Coran and Safana.2. When importing your final save from BG:EE to start a new game in BG2:EE, your party members should be recognized and, if available as joinable NPCs in BG2:EE, they should be imprisoned with you instead of Minsc and Jaheira. The latter could be made available for recruitment in another game area. Imoen must obviously be there for plot reasons, so at least one of your party members will mandatorily have to be swapped for Imoen.
3. If you start a brand new BG2:EE game without loading your BG:EE final save, the NPCs that start the game with you should be randomized among the BG1 NPCs that are joinable in BG2:EE, and according to CHARNAME's alignment (good with good, evil with evil, anything with neutral). The number of joinable NPCs would still be two plus Imoen, as it is now in BG2, in order to not break the game balance.
I can see a game balance problem with item #2 if a player beats BG:EE with a party comprising five NPCs that are also joinable in BG2:EE. This way, they'd start BG2:EE with a complete party of six as opposed to the current party of four. This can be dealt with in two ways:
a. Make the difficulty of Chateau Irenicus scalable depending on the number of party members you start the game with.
b. Find a way to justify the absence of two random members of your BG:EE party that doesn't involve their death, and make them available for recruitment soon after leaving that dungeon.
And now, I think I'll make a separate thread for scalable difficulty.
39
Comments
Looking for a little nookie with the long legged, ebony skinned Dynaheir eh? Watch out, MInsc and boo be their protectors. You break her heart, he break your head!
But it's worth it.
I was real sad when I found out I killed Ajantis, he was one of the coolest. I vote we bring Ajantis back and Dynaheir's long ebony legs.
Her voice always made me wish I was CHARNAME. That plus I'd get to be the all powerful Bhaalspawn. O' course, then I'd have to choose between her and Viconia AND being a God. Two girls, one godhood and Minsc and a hamster named boo.
I vote we invent virtual reality Baldur's Gate.
I agree this may not be feasible due to contractual limitations, but I thought asking wouldn't hurt
Add more BG1 NPCs to BG2? Sure. But don't mess with the story. Let you recruit them outside Chateau Irenicus.
This will 1: make the transition a little better and 2: you wont really "change" the game.
But why would BG1 chars be in athkatla? Some might, but most probably like it around friendly arms inn, it is friendly after all.
It forces players to play new chars and change their playstyle, Remember most players get a team and dont really change them around much.
One can always use mods anyways.
@Thantalas
I generally don't like messing with canonical events but I contend that your party being necessarily composed of Jaheira, Khalid, Minsc and Dynaheir at the end of Baldur's Gate should not be canon. I can finish Baldur's Gate with whatever combination of joinable NPCs. It really doesn't make sense for me to beat the game with, say, Faldorn in my party and then wake up in prison alongside Jaheira and Minsc, who hadn't been recruited in Baldur's Gate in the first place. Only to find Faldorn in Druid's Groove. How did she get there, and why wasn't she captured when they ambushed me if she was in the party?
BGT (I think) already made the excuse that you were in Amn because Duke Eltan (or one of the other Dukes, I can't recall) asked you to go on a mission to Amn. Just add to this excuse that Jaheira, Khalid, Dynaheir and Minsc (and Imoen) were part of the "mercs" enlisted, and that the Duke didn't want anyone else on the mission and everything is fine.
Other BG1 NPCs being in Amn can be easily explained by adventurers being attracted to trouble.
You might consider this all heavy-handed, but removing Minsc and Jaheira from being in Chateau Irenicus throws a large chunk of the impact of BG2's initial story out of the window.
@thanthalas
Bg1 npcs not in Amn can also easily being explained by being adventurers .
There are chars from bg1 that you meet during bg2. so if some dies, some finds other people to travel with, some travel to other places, some settle down, some like it where they are. I think its reasonable to have 4 joinable npcs "left" (I like that some npc in amn have ties to some npc in bg, and some that cant join)
But i agree the transition could be made smoother, but it probably wont happen since beamdog cant change the original story.
Not to mention the potential nightmare of trying to account for the death of an NPC in BG1 (heck, I had Minsc beat Dynaheir to death in BG1 just so that he and Edwin didn't fight, only to learn that somehow she survived and then got killed by Irenicus! What gives?) .
All that being said, I think that it's totally viable to add a few of the BG1 NPCs (that weren't killed off by Irenicus 3: sorry Dynaheir) to the game. One mod that does this nearly seamlessly is the Kivan & Deheriana mod:
http://www.gibberlings3.net/kivan/index.php
The mod comes complete with subquests and dialogue between CHARNAME and Kivan. I haven't played to the endgame parts of it, but apparently Deheriana can become a joinable NPC as well. It even ties in with seeing Tazok again in Firekraag's temple.
I think minor tweaks to allow for a few of these instances would be perfectly acceptable without severely altering the original content of the game.
But ok, lets assume it will be done:
1° of all: characters as dynaheir, khalid, ajantis, safana and coran MUST die, otherwise that will be a direct change in the original history, however this doesn't mean the game can't provide us a way to ressurect them after their death no?
In my view dynaheir and khalid can't be ressurected, do this will eventually offend the original history in a way or another (Minsc will never take aerie as a new witch for example and Jaheira option of relationship would be screwed), so those character's final death MUST happen.
About adjantis, a way to revive the paladins the party is tricked in kill (in a quest for example) is viable, a way to stop the werewolfs to kill safana and coran also is viable (it's not a plot kill safana has if i remember well, if not she must die and be reborn to preserve the original content)
But i really understand you point brother, anyway if not done in a official fashion, as soon the game is launched fan mods will be done to cover that and would be really better in a official way with no bugs or incompatibility.
About the Imoem presence in Irenicus Dungeon, if imoem where not in the party she can justify this by tell main char how she was captured (cos irenicus know from the begin that imoem and main char are alike, so if he contract a group to kidnap the main char party, why not for Imoem too).
however i don't see a way to remove Jaheira and Minsc from the Irenicus Dungeon cos that would prevent the death of Dynaheir and Khalid. It's a big flaw on the consistency of the history... but is the original content.
Justify that probally will not be take but somehow save the original content cos as the topic owner said, it's a really flaw the permanent Minsc and Jaheira party members:
Irenicus is only after the main char, so why take everyone to the dungeon? So in my point of view Jaheira and Khalid follow the kidnapers to the dungeon as a debt for old Gorion, and Minsc followed them to to save a friend or take revenge from main char (if he killed dynaheir at the request of edwin in BG).
Also, if Irenicus only kills Khalid, he's less intimidating. As sad as Dynaheir's death is...that's kind of the point.
After all BG:EE is more a tribute work made by ppl that respect and like the game than a exclusive company business with only money in mind (money is needed too, but is not the main point of this project i believe).
now a really but really cool NPC to find in BG2 from BG would be Tamoko if the party spare her in the end of BG1, i never saw a mod to bring her, but as a NPC in BG2 she could develop a lot the sarevok true history during the game and when the game reach ToB, wow that would be nice
Thinking of this matter, Tamoko would've been a great choice for a good natured character, who spares her in late BG and takes her along BG2, unfortunately its not gonna happen.
And yeah, Shar-Teel for Baldur's Gate 2 would bring the shake.
Can't believe nobody's modded it though, shouldn't be too hard to replace Xzar with a generic evil mage if he's already in the party, or make it a sidequest of him.
On another note, I heartily endorse a Tamoko NPC mod!
This even makes Yoshimo more tragic. If his original motivation for taking the job to bring Charname to Spellhold was motivated by revenge for the death/disappearance of Tamoko, imagine his surprise when he finds her alive but he's geased into betraying her and the person who spared her life when she was willing to throw it away.
It'd be a great tragedy!
As well, it'd be nice if all NPCs had their niche. Why would I ever recruit Safana or Skie over Dual classable, better statted Imoen?
Edit: my playtroughs, most of them where a BG2 start and i didn't end trone of bhaal always on them, just to note.
BG1 NPCs don't really interact and the EE isn't changing that.
This is BG1 we're dealing with. BG2 NPCs tend to have plenty of their own persona.
I´m from Brasil (that have many old fans) and my english is not so good (sorry for that), but lets go:
the best in BG is the history of the game and of the caracters. the original history is great, but the possibilities of an old BG1 NPC started in BG2 could be taken into account if help of MODs created by fans who wants to do anything to reverse death of old friends like Dynaheir... I imagine that cost lot of work, but thats the point of outsource the work to MOD creators fans. that way, everyone would be covered.
but any changes should be made carefully, because what makes the BG today is the glorious history of the game, the characters and the interaction between them.