I think the biggest issue is that, unless you're metagaming it you could end up with an entire party that's, well... dead (or missing). Most NPCs from BG1 aren't playable in BG2 and that can't be changed. So if you finished BG1 with an entire group of them... hope you can make it out of the dungeon solo.
I've always held that the canon starting party isn't too unrealistic. Imoen in BG1 will never leave you no matter how low your reputation becomes (she is the only good/neutral character who does this). Jaheira (and Khalid) would probably have some sense of responsibility for you and wander after you once you left Baldur's Gate, even/especially if you had an unsavory reputation. And Minsc after being captured would probably not remember if he was traveling with you or hunting you down to kill you. (Those head wounds are cumulative you know)
This is something I thought of when I first played BG2, by the time I finished BG1 only Imoen was in my party out of the characters trapped with you in Irenicus' dungeon. kilroy_was_here's explanation of the NPCs found in the dungeon is quite smart. The meta-gaming solution I found throughout BG1 was to have Khalid and Jaheira in the party until I got to Nashkel, leave them there, pick up Minsc to go get Dynaheir. Then I dismissed them after the Nashkel mines and picked up the party members I would use more or less until the end of BG1.
That way, by the time I started BG2 all the NPCs in Irenicus' dungeon had been in my party albeit briefly, which would also explain -from a roleplaying standpoint- the presence of good aligned NPCs since you could have "gone evil" after they were no longer in your party.
Personally, when I look at this thread, I think more for a player who is starting out a BG2 game, as opposed to doing the entire saga. If you're evil, or neutral even, and you're starting a new BG2 game, WHY would either of those alignments bring Minsc and Dynaheir along? Evil especially it makes no sense. I PERSONALLY (this is just my opinion) think that MINSC in question should be the only character that is changed depending on the alignment of the PC upon starting a new BG2 game.
Obviously Minsc satisfies the "fighter" role in the party, where Jaheira satisfies the "healer" role. Then you have Yoshimo (and/or Imoen) who can give you the "theif" role, so your party is where it should be. My idea is to have Minsc be a bit of a trump card, whereas the NPC in question changes depending on your alignment. I feel like Jaheira (debatable) and Imoen (NOT debatable) are an integral part of the story line. To me, it doesn't really feel like Minsc is, therefore, I think he should be changed to reflect the alignment of the PC
Well i have many opinions in this issue, but mostly i think that Beamdog shoud work into a special permission to change this part of the original content, there's no sense in enhance a game to repeat the same mistakes of the past.
When BG was released, probally they didn't even thought im make BG, only after the success of BG that the idea comes to mind and probally was a short time project (besides the success rate of BG II) cos the sequence was launched more or less 2 years after the first game and they even launched the BG expansion Tales of the Sword Coast in the meantime.
With freedom in this issue i believe Team BG can bring back coherence to BG transition, that not only was not planned from the begin as BG II was an consequence of BG success but the transition idea only comes with TuTu and BGT big mods.
I don't know if I like the idea of bg2 having too many bg1 characters. Smells too much like fan service, and it would seem unusual if every character you meet in bg1 up and followed you to amn. Would destroy believability for me.
Wow...my thread was merged with an older thread eh? That's some advanced Forum technology for you. =P What I'd like to add is that Jaheria might be "True Neutral" but she never acts like it if you're a good aligned character, she merely acts like a Neutral Good alignment. Even then, if you're evil and you run with her in your party, she doesn't have many neutral responses to your bad behavior. So she's effectively part of the good cannon party. You could free her, or find her in Irenicus's dungeon either way, but there should be at least one NPC an evil aligned character might go with. ( @Xavioria Maybe the new Half-Orc should replace Minsc, along the lines of what you were suggesting?)
@Blakes7 it's kind of already like that with all the bg1 NPCs arriving in bg2 with no real reasons except for a good "huh, look who it is" moment.
@Debaser I wholeheartedly agree, as I'm seeing Dorn (so far) as the evil party's fit for a paladin. I'm also hoping that rasaad is neutral (although it certainly looks like he's good) so that he can fit the neutral need for a fighter... Although that is definitely wishful thinking.
As to Jaheira being neutral good, I think the general public agrees with you because there are a few mods that change her to that alignment, and even those that change Faldorn to neutral evil. I think the only Druid NPC that is true neutral was Cerned lol.
Faldorn surely isn't neutral evil. Neutral evil is greed normally and faldorn can be anything but greed, reckless maybe in nature's defense, but that's just her extremist point of view on nature.
@Xavioria true but at least at the moment they are somewhat minor cameo's, I would not want them expanded upon or new characters from bg1 thrust upon us unless we truly wished for them to join us.
@kamuizin it's greed or selfish... Neutral evil have a personal goal and go to any means to get what they want. In BG2 she starts to harm nature and becomes outright violent in pursuit of her goals. She may not be neutral evil, but she sure as hell ain't true neutral.
@Blakes7 as for minor cameos, you're right, but that fact means that any other NPC from the first game coming with you into the dungeon of irenicus makes less sense. If yeslick appears captured with you, then it only makes sense because it can be inferred that he was with you upon being captured. Garrick showing up in amn as a minor cameo however is silly to me because I do not understand his need to be down there.
True neutral is about balance, the pro-active behavior of shadow druids maybe don't resemble a true neutral alignment at a first view, but their motivations can make for true neutral.
For a shadow druid everything outside nature is an enemy of the land, and the land already lost a huge space for civilization, from their point of view balance is already lost and it's their duty to restore it. That's my impression of shadow druids. Maybe it's just my habit of see every situation without judge, but it's the impression i have from this group.
Faldorn didn't link herself with the land for self gain, neither to harm the land, the damage done was an consequence for her reckless and immature behavior, we can say that she had lack of wisdom to foresee the consequences of her acts. She truly believed that what she did was for the good of nature, even Crend when confront her in the grove, recognize that. I believe she's most true neutral than any other character in the game. Jaheira for example surely isn't true neutral.
I think it's silly that Misc and Edwin are both alive in BG2. When you meet them both, its logic one of them dies. And the other will be in the cell with you in BG2.
And I think the rest of the NPC's have somthing els to do in BG2
In fact, if you meet Minsc before Edwin in BG 1 to save Dynaheir, after you're back from the Gnoll Stronghold, If you speak with Edwin he accept to join the party.
Perhaps some BG1 NPCs could be part of the Shadow Thief attack on Irenicus's prison? A simple explanation for having them in the game is that they were there to rescue CHARNAME.
Interesting, it's a smart way of view things and bypass the ridig clauses of the assignment copyright. The only question left is the own use of old BG1 NPCs, they need to at least soft that to make this work.
It adds the majority of them into the game, with banters and a few quests. It doesn't allow you to change who starts with you in Irenicus' dungeon, but at least you will be able to save Ajantis, Xzar and Montaron from their fates in SoA and pick up your other favorites as well.
It all would make sense and generally it's good idea. But there are two problems: 1) They can't change original content too much (licence and stuff). So it's rather not possible. 2) Even if they could, it would cost alot of work. Jaheira is very important for story, and you just can't finish BG1 with Xzar and Montaron, because it would mess with Jaheira further story. You can't start the game with Edwin, because he is important NPC in certain moment of the game. And so on, and so on.
I like the idea, but it's just plain impossible to do.
I've kind of come to accept that the start of BG2 is the start of BG2, and that several characters for BG1 have cameos, and then die ("Tiax! Xzar! I... I never loved you!").
I do, however, think more could be done with some of the BG1 characters who do not appear: Eldoth and/or Skie, Shar-Teel, several others (I forget who). They could appear in new and interesting roles.
Speaking about Shar-Teel, killing her father at the climax of BG1 was never justified (especially considering how her father protected her when the flaming fist captures your party). This should change in EE. Maybe this is the reason why she doesn't join with you in BG2
I have come up with a great and quite simple idea to enhance BG2 when it's time for that. This will make the game more varied and allow for new unique game experiences.
LET THE PLAYER CHOOSE WHICH COMPANIONS FROM BG1 TO START WITH IN IRENCIUS DUNGEON
We all know that you begin BG2 with Minsc, Imoen and Jaheira (Khalid & Dynaheir as well but they are dead). The reason you start with these companions is that they where in your party at the end of BG1. But that's not entirely accurate since there were a lot of companions in BG1 and you might have finished that game with an entirely different set of companions.
My suggestion is that the player should be able to choose which companions from BG1 that he/she will begin with in BG2 EE. You will always begin BG2 EE with Imoen since it is she who lets you out of your cage. But the other four you should be able to choose. Since Khalid and Dynaheir are dead when you begin BG2, two of the companions you choose will always be dead from start and you wont see them (only as corpses). But two will always be alive and locked in cages nearby you in Irencius Dungeon.
Of course some companions comes in pairs, Khalid & Jahira and Minsc and Dynaheir. Others are already in BG2 like Montaron & Xzar. Regarding Montaron & Xzar I think you should be able to choose to begin with them in Irencius Dungeon but then of coarse you wont encounter them later on in the game as in original BG2. And the same goes for the others. If you choose not to begin your journey with Minsc, then you may encounter him later on in BG2 EE. This will make the game extremley varied dependent on which companions you select to begin with and the ones you choose not. And this will benefit all of us who want to experience BG2 in new ways.
Thus you will always be able to select two of the companions fron BG1 to begin your journey with in BG2 EE. And also select two who will be dead from start.
Say that you intend to play as an evil player in BG2 EE then you might wanna start with some of the evil companions from BG1. Or you might wanna select companions depending on their alignment.
Depending on which companions you choose BG2 EE will turn out differently. I think this is an easy way to make BG2 EE feel a bit different from the original that we all have already played a thousand times. So please let us customize and be able to experience the game with different companions.
The problem is that when they did BG, they didn't have in mind a possible BG II, or that would be based on BG success that of course exceeded their expectatives.
Unfortunally, this game now is just an enhancement, BG and BG II where both in need of a remake, not an enhancement only, but we have to work with what we have in hands at the moment, unfortunally.
To preserve coherence. Minsc, jaheira, and any other NPC that was with the party in BG should be the ones to appear in BG II, Eldoth/Skie if in the party should have some kind of death to eldoth (that i prefer) or Skie, and the game would move on.
So, any NPC at the end of the game should be carried to BG II
Each NPC in BG should be able to be carried to BG II, except the ones that already have some appearance in BG II. After the final battle with Sarevok, any NPC that has a mandatory appearance in BG II (Xzar/Montaron, Ajantis, Garrick, Coran, Safana...) should leave the party (and leave with the party any carriable item to BG II). When you meet with the Belm Duke (it's the right name if i'm not wrong) and he ask me to move to Amn (this is a link that BGT created but other links could be made also). he should ask the party to be reformed to have only 2 NPCs, except if Imoen or Eldoth/Skie are in the party. Any excedent NPC at this moment could be asked to meet the party at Amn.
Each NPC should have their own quests, banters, conflicts with other NPCs and therefore on.
Each NPC should have their own starting spots if asked to go for Amn and meet main char there.
The game should respect the mandatory BG NPCs in BG II that die and let them die, however their deaths could have more significance (you killed ajantis, a paladin that travel with you for a long time... and you just move on without a single word?).
In the end the Cannon party and the way BG NPCs are labeled in BG II reflect a bit of a lazy behavior from the devs of the old game.
i fully agree with the exception that even those that already appear as non-playable npc's in BG2 should be made playable and get carried over. none of their roles are essential to the BG2 storyline and those could just be replaced with different-named characters.
so for example the faldorn character from BG2 won't be faldorn anymore, and you will be able to carry the *real* faldorn from BG. she will be significantly involved with the shadow druid quest but in a different role.
that's a significant remaking or a mod i'd like to see.
But common. If you carry over Montaron and Xzar then naturally you will miss out on the quest they are involved in in the original BG2 and this is what will make every playthrough of BG2EE unique. Depending on which companions you choose to start with the game will turn out slightly different.
For example if you choose not to start with Minsc then maybe you will meet hem anyway later on in a new unique quest specially made for BG2 EE. And it should work like that for all companions which will make BG2 EE worth playing.
And remember that Irencius is cruel. If you choose to start with Khalid and Jahia then he will kill one of them to torture the other.
Comments
I've always held that the canon starting party isn't too unrealistic. Imoen in BG1 will never leave you no matter how low your reputation becomes (she is the only good/neutral character who does this). Jaheira (and Khalid) would probably have some sense of responsibility for you and wander after you once you left Baldur's Gate, even/especially if you had an unsavory reputation. And Minsc after being captured would probably not remember if he was traveling with you or hunting you down to kill you. (Those head wounds are cumulative you know)
That way, by the time I started BG2 all the NPCs in Irenicus' dungeon had been in my party albeit briefly, which would also explain -from a roleplaying standpoint- the presence of good aligned NPCs since you could have "gone evil" after they were no longer in your party.
Obviously Minsc satisfies the "fighter" role in the party, where Jaheira satisfies the "healer" role. Then you have Yoshimo (and/or Imoen) who can give you the "theif" role, so your party is where it should be. My idea is to have Minsc be a bit of a trump card, whereas the NPC in question changes depending on your alignment. I feel like Jaheira (debatable) and Imoen (NOT debatable) are an integral part of the story line. To me, it doesn't really feel like Minsc is, therefore, I think he should be changed to reflect the alignment of the PC
When BG was released, probally they didn't even thought im make BG, only after the success of BG that the idea comes to mind and probally was a short time project (besides the success rate of BG II) cos the sequence was launched more or less 2 years after the first game and they even launched the BG expansion Tales of the Sword Coast in the meantime.
With freedom in this issue i believe Team BG can bring back coherence to BG transition, that not only was not planned from the begin as BG II was an consequence of BG success but the transition idea only comes with TuTu and BGT big mods.
@Debaser I wholeheartedly agree, as I'm seeing Dorn (so far) as the evil party's fit for a paladin. I'm also hoping that rasaad is neutral (although it certainly looks like he's good) so that he can fit the neutral need for a fighter... Although that is definitely wishful thinking.
As to Jaheira being neutral good, I think the general public agrees with you because there are a few mods that change her to that alignment, and even those that change Faldorn to neutral evil. I think the only Druid NPC that is true neutral was Cerned lol.
@Blakes7 as for minor cameos, you're right, but that fact means that any other NPC from the first game coming with you into the dungeon of irenicus makes less sense. If yeslick appears captured with you, then it only makes sense because it can be inferred that he was with you upon being captured. Garrick showing up in amn as a minor cameo however is silly to me because I do not understand his need to be down there.
For a shadow druid everything outside nature is an enemy of the land, and the land already lost a huge space for civilization, from their point of view balance is already lost and it's their duty to restore it. That's my impression of shadow druids. Maybe it's just my habit of see every situation without judge, but it's the impression i have from this group.
Faldorn didn't link herself with the land for self gain, neither to harm the land, the damage done was an consequence for her reckless and immature behavior, we can say that she had lack of wisdom to foresee the consequences of her acts. She truly believed that what she did was for the good of nature, even Crend when confront her in the grove, recognize that. I believe she's most true neutral than any other character in the game. Jaheira for example surely isn't true neutral.
And I think the rest of the NPC's have somthing els to do in BG2
http://www.baldursgatemods.com/forums/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=177
It adds the majority of them into the game, with banters and a few quests. It doesn't allow you to change who starts with you in Irenicus' dungeon, but at least you will be able to save Ajantis, Xzar and Montaron from their fates in SoA and pick up your other favorites as well.
But there are two problems:
1) They can't change original content too much (licence and stuff). So it's rather not possible.
2) Even if they could, it would cost alot of work. Jaheira is very important for story, and you just can't finish BG1 with Xzar and Montaron, because it would mess with Jaheira further story. You can't start the game with Edwin, because he is important NPC in certain moment of the game. And so on, and so on.
I like the idea, but it's just plain impossible to do.
I do, however, think more could be done with some of the BG1 characters who do not appear: Eldoth and/or Skie, Shar-Teel, several others (I forget who). They could appear in new and interesting roles.
Maybe this is the reason why she doesn't join with you in BG2
---------------------
I have come up with a great and quite simple idea to enhance BG2 when it's time for that. This will make the game more varied and allow for new unique game experiences.
LET THE PLAYER CHOOSE WHICH COMPANIONS FROM BG1 TO START WITH IN IRENCIUS DUNGEON
We all know that you begin BG2 with Minsc, Imoen and Jaheira (Khalid & Dynaheir as well but they are dead). The reason you start with these companions is that they where in your party at the end of BG1. But that's not entirely accurate since there were a lot of companions in BG1 and you might have finished that game with an entirely different set of companions.
My suggestion is that the player should be able to choose which companions from BG1 that he/she will begin with in BG2 EE. You will always begin BG2 EE with Imoen since it is she who lets you out of your cage. But the other four you should be able to choose. Since Khalid and Dynaheir are dead when you begin BG2, two of the companions you choose will always be dead from start and you wont see them (only as corpses). But two will always be alive and locked in cages nearby you in Irencius Dungeon.
Of course some companions comes in pairs, Khalid & Jahira and Minsc and Dynaheir. Others are already in BG2 like Montaron & Xzar. Regarding Montaron & Xzar I think you should be able to choose to begin with them in Irencius Dungeon but then of coarse you wont encounter them later on in the game as in original BG2.
And the same goes for the others. If you choose not to begin your journey with Minsc, then you may encounter him later on in BG2 EE. This will make the game extremley varied dependent on which companions you select to begin with and the ones you choose not. And this will benefit all of us who want to experience BG2 in new ways.
Thus you will always be able to select two of the companions fron BG1 to begin your journey with in BG2 EE. And also select two who will be dead from start.
Say that you intend to play as an evil player in BG2 EE then you might wanna start with some of the evil companions from BG1. Or you might wanna select companions depending on their alignment.
Depending on which companions you choose BG2 EE will turn out differently. I think this is an easy way to make BG2 EE feel a bit different from the original that we all have already played a thousand times. So please let us customize and be able to experience the game with different companions.
What do you guys think?
-----------------------------
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/5888/let-the-player-choose-which-companions-to-begin-the-game-with-in-bg2-ee#latest
Unfortunally, this game now is just an enhancement, BG and BG II where both in need of a remake, not an enhancement only, but we have to work with what we have in hands at the moment, unfortunally.
To preserve coherence. Minsc, jaheira, and any other NPC that was with the party in BG should be the ones to appear in BG II, Eldoth/Skie if in the party should have some kind of death to eldoth (that i prefer) or Skie, and the game would move on.
So, any NPC at the end of the game should be carried to BG II
Each NPC in BG should be able to be carried to BG II, except the ones that already have some appearance in BG II. After the final battle with Sarevok, any NPC that has a mandatory appearance in BG II (Xzar/Montaron, Ajantis, Garrick, Coran, Safana...) should leave the party (and leave with the party any carriable item to BG II). When you meet with the Belm Duke (it's the right name if i'm not wrong) and he ask me to move to Amn (this is a link that BGT created but other links could be made also). he should ask the party to be reformed to have only 2 NPCs, except if Imoen or Eldoth/Skie are in the party. Any excedent NPC at this moment could be asked to meet the party at Amn.
Each NPC should have their own quests, banters, conflicts with other NPCs and therefore on.
Each NPC should have their own starting spots if asked to go for Amn and meet main char there.
The game should respect the mandatory BG NPCs in BG II that die and let them die, however their deaths could have more significance (you killed ajantis, a paladin that travel with you for a long time... and you just move on without a single word?).
In the end the Cannon party and the way BG NPCs are labeled in BG II reflect a bit of a lazy behavior from the devs of the old game.
so for example the faldorn character from BG2 won't be faldorn anymore, and you will be able to carry the *real* faldorn from BG. she will be significantly involved with the shadow druid quest but in a different role.
that's a significant remaking or a mod i'd like to see.
For example if you choose not to start with Minsc then maybe you will meet hem anyway later on in a new unique quest specially made for BG2 EE. And it should work like that for all companions which will make BG2 EE worth playing.
And remember that Irencius is cruel. If you choose to start with Khalid and Jahia then he will kill one of them to torture the other.
EDIT: Merged threads, in fact.