The Flipside: Who is the most overrated NPC?
KidCarnival
Member Posts: 3,747
This is probably a more delicate topic than the "most underrated NPC" poll, so I want to point out this is not about popularity of an NPC, it's about their (percieved) cheesy-broken-overpowered status. This topic is meant to inspire discussion about the downsides of NPCs that are said to have none, compare them to their "weaker" class counterparts and maybe find new ideas for power parties and strategies involving the "b-listers".
Edwin is hands down my favorite BG2 NPC, but I also think he's pretty overrated. Extra spells don't mean that much in a game with tons of wands and scrolls. Like I said - popularity isn't the subject here and I hope no-one will take it personal if their favorite companion makes the list or is critized.
Quick breakdown why I put these NPCs on the list:
Edwin - frequently called overpowered due to more spell slots from his amulet
Keldorn - often listed as a "must have" due to his Dispel Magic/class
Imoen - highest roll among the NPCs, considered a "must have" by many
Haer'Dalis - often called overpowered due to kit, especially in HLA territory
Minsc - considered a "must have" by many, for reasons that are beyond me
Viconia - considered a "must have" due to her magic resistance, even by non-evil parties
Baeloth - said to rival, if not surpass Edwin in spellpower due to extra casts
Dorn- seen as overpowered due to the illegal race/class combo
Jan - not sure he's a "must have" because he's Jan or because he was the only progressing thief
someone else - I considered adding Anomen, Aerie, Neera and Jaheira due to their power and class (combo), but all seem to have fairly balanced love/hate fronts and are generally seen as "appropriately powerful", not "borderline OP" or ouright cheesy. Feel free to vote for them or any other NPC anyway.
Edwin is hands down my favorite BG2 NPC, but I also think he's pretty overrated. Extra spells don't mean that much in a game with tons of wands and scrolls. Like I said - popularity isn't the subject here and I hope no-one will take it personal if their favorite companion makes the list or is critized.
Quick breakdown why I put these NPCs on the list:
Edwin - frequently called overpowered due to more spell slots from his amulet
Keldorn - often listed as a "must have" due to his Dispel Magic/class
Imoen - highest roll among the NPCs, considered a "must have" by many
Haer'Dalis - often called overpowered due to kit, especially in HLA territory
Minsc - considered a "must have" by many, for reasons that are beyond me
Viconia - considered a "must have" due to her magic resistance, even by non-evil parties
Baeloth - said to rival, if not surpass Edwin in spellpower due to extra casts
Dorn- seen as overpowered due to the illegal race/class combo
Jan - not sure he's a "must have" because he's Jan or because he was the only progressing thief
someone else - I considered adding Anomen, Aerie, Neera and Jaheira due to their power and class (combo), but all seem to have fairly balanced love/hate fronts and are generally seen as "appropriately powerful", not "borderline OP" or ouright cheesy. Feel free to vote for them or any other NPC anyway.
- The Flipside: Who is the most overrated NPC?245 votes
- Edwin17.55%
- Keldorn6.53%
- Imoen8.16%
- Haer'Dalis6.94%
- Minsc26.12%
- Viconia12.24%
- Baeloth2.04%
- Dorn7.35%
- Jan3.67%
- someone else9.39%
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Comments
Jan is no longer the only progressing thief with Hexxat (and also, the PC can always just play a thief, but that's no the point).
Dorn's Constitution and (in my opinion) bad character and story make him not overpowered, though his kit is pretty awesome.
Keldorn's dispel magic is nice, but he has some other flaws I think balance him.
I didn't really think people thought these ones were overpowered/must-use: Haer'Dalis, Viconia, Imoen. I mean I know they are used a lot, but I think those reasons are justified and fine.
Minsc however, baffles me. Sure he's got a hamster (the jokes were funny my first play through but I am a bit over it now), but he can't even have 3 quick slot items. His high strength does not compare to the many many strength items available in the game. He doesn't make good use of the natural 2-weapon fighting of a ranger very well (sure, why don't I have a point in "weapon type that barely any good magical versions of exist in this game" aka Mace). His favored enemy is Vampire (a weird story point that is never brought up as far as I can tell): Favored enemy isn't the greatest ability (useful for certain types), but the only thing needed to help kill vampires in my experience is negative plane protection, not +4 to hit and damage. No unique side quests that give sick loot like some of the new NPCs.
Maybe a Ranger that fights much like a weaker Sarevok who, if using Aerie, sometimes goes uncontrollable regardless of passing saves vs. various-confusion-effects is a character that some people like. Maybe he has some hidden Deathbringer passive like Sarevok. Maybe Boo has used charm person on half of the community. I don't get the fascination personally, though I have used him once or twice before.
(Let the Boo/Minsc community smite me as I dishonor their favorite characters.)
I think it's vastly overrated to take these 5 NPCs in BG1, where charname can have no knowledge of BG2 events and who will end up in the cage. Khalid and Jaheira are mechanically solid NPCs, I'm just no fan of a druid as only divine caster. In a balanced party, it would be a 50/50 choice between a bard and a druid for me as a support caster. Minsc... would have been my second vote here. I don't see why he's so great - his stats are alright, but not outstanding in any way and he doesn't have a quest in BG2 to consider either.
Dynaheir is alright. She's a capable caster with good con and can still cast Enchantment with wands. Forbidden schools don't bother me; there are wands and bards for a reason. Out of the canon party, I probably like Dynaheir best, from backstory, personality and also mechanically.
Now, Imoen.
Her voice is grating. I remember back when I played BG1 for the first time, and my foster father was just killed, and she jumped out of the bushes like a jack in a box, cheerful, like no-one close to us had just been slaughtered. The hell?! I thought my quest was to bring her safely back home, or drop her at FAI, because she couldn't possibly be a serious companion for an epic, battle-filled adventure.
Anyway. Mechanically, yeah, she's very powerful with her 98 roll and ability to dual to mage. But she lacks of banters, even the most minimal ones in BG1, and in BG2, she always drags behind in levels. Probably not such an issue if you like to switch party members around and your group is rarely all around the same level, but it does bother me if someone stays behind their potential.
There are much more interesting thieves in BG1 - Safana, who can also dual to mage, Shar-Teel when dualed, Montaron, of course, and last but not least, Tiax, who has the class combo I'd find more useful in the canon party: thief/cleric. Dynaheir does well enough as a mage; a cleric is what's missing.
And in BG2, Jan has the same class combo as Imoen - just better and way, way more banters and a personal quest that adds quite a lot depth to his character. Imoen lags behind as mage, doesn't advance as thief, and brings a not terribly inspiring emo attitude to the table. It is a complete mystery to me why so many people are so obsessed with having Imoen in the party. The story plays out exactly the same, if she's in the party or not.
I think that if Jahiera didn't have Harper's Call, I would agree that I prefer other Divine Casters. I agree about the Canon party though.
I heard a rumor once on the forums that Khalid was meant to be a fighter/mage at one point during development? Could be entirely wrong, but if that was the case I would definitely enjoy the canon party (or at least, the canon Harper duo portion of the party) much more.
Otherwise, I agree completely with your views about the canon party--if I had to play a character with that party, I can't see myself playing anything other than a cleric purely for a solid party lineup.
About Jahiera: Well not in BG1, but she might in BGEE 1 for all I know (I don't use her, hehe.) I suppose I meant the continuation canon party, which I assume to be: CHARNAME/Yoshimo (replaced by Imoen)/Minsc/Jaheira/+2, with a strong emphasis on Aerie to help Minsc with his minuscule side plot. If you assume Aerie, than a cleric is...probably still necessary since she is a bad one, but I guess not if you have Jaheira. Still, I think we are in agreement: the canon party desires a cleric, and assumes a fighter (Abdel Adrian rings a bell).
Imoen/Yoshimo/Imoen, Minsc - likely Aerie, Jaheira and charname is probably the closest to a BG2 canon party, but it's still more open than about BG1.
Note that I don't hate Viconia or anything like that (hell, I enjoy her in evil/neutral parties). It's just that I think she is overrated.
he is extremely powerful but I think that he still gets too much credit he's not that decisively the best caster and you can easily do without him and yet he is still held on a pedestal. I still consider him slightly op but we're talking about being overrated not the characters actual powerlevel
And if you go purely by how useful a caster is, a wild mage is technically better than Edwin. On low levels, losing Identify can be annoying. On higher levels, losing True Seeing can be painful. A wild mage has the extra spell of specialists and the versatility of a generalist, and that alone beats Edwin and any other specialist, regardless of the forbidden school.
His stats are medicore at best, with INT as the obvious saving grace. But really, what good does 16 con do on a mage? You need to rest to restore all those spells anyway and hitpoints will always be pitiful compared to other classes.
Viconia got better, compared to vanilla. Her magic resistance preventing benefitial spells was plain stupid. That's fixed now, but she's still overrated. She's not bad. But she isn't so much better than other clerics that it borders on a crime to not take her in any given party (except, of course, the "canon party" - no clerics allowed!). I never understood the drow craze either. No-one makes a big deal of Aerie being Avariel or Haer'Dalis being a Tiefling. Both are "exotic" races, but I rarely see it mentioned, unless it's about Aerie's wings. Even then, it's only about "she's so whiny about her wings", and otherwise treated as a regular elf. Not even Hexxat as a vampire gets much attention about her "exotic" race. Yet drow - of which there are 2 joinable ones and Drizzt in both games - seem to be THE rarest and hence coolest thing ever. I don't mind exotic/rare races, but I'm also happy with a well written plain old human.
Then there's "Viconia is sooooo hot/sexy/seductive/whatever/( . )( . )" - I don't see it. Safana is overly sexy and seductive, but Viconia's banters are pretty normal in that regard. Not actively unappealing like Shar-Teel, but also not flirty like Safana. I haven't played the Viconia romance, so maybe I don't have all available information, but she doesn't strike me as the "naughty playful promiscuous dominatrix bad girl" she's often made out to be. I'd put her in a category with Branwen and Jaheira - strong, emotionally mature woman, not "kinky leather slut".
I find that mechanically she is very meh, never measuring up to the other fighters or to the other casters. In every party I put together I find that someone else can do her job better.
Now I'm more of an RPer so mechanics don't matter to me much anyway. However I don't like Jaheiras character much in either game. She is bossy and bitchy, in the second game she admits as much. I find her annoying. I also find her quest in bg2 to be a bit annoying, the cursed bit anyway, mostly because I feel like I have to do it right away even if I'm in the middle of something else.
I did not like her reaction to the other characters when she found Khalid's body either. She insulted everyone, and though I understand she was upset it doesn't excuse such behavior. She should have at least apologized later, heck even Anomen apologizes for being a jerk.
I know that Minsc is one of the best fighters in BG1, he's versatile, has a lot of STR bonus, etc. but a Ranger PC can get over him in just seconds, I can't say that he isn't funny, but he is overrated as "the best fighter" in BG1, I think that Ajantis, Khalid or even Kagain can be much better.
I voted for Keldorn because I dislike the blanket area of effect for Dispel Magic, which he gets from Carsomyr. Although, to be honest it's been so long now since I played BG2 (not for lack of motivation; just too busy) I can no longer recall whether Carsomyr's Dispel applies just on the opponent that it hits, or within a radius. If Dispel is restricted to the target on hit with that sword, then Keldorn would not be my pick. Then it would be Minsc or Edwin, I guess.
I ditch her at the Friendly Arm Inn on every playthrough, take forever to get to Spellhold, and send her on her merry, grating way when I do finally get there.
I have to say Edwin is the most overrated. Lets be clear on this though. This is not just because he frequently brings up my pointy hat and age! (though that may be part of it
after a lot of thought, I will give this one to Imoen. i am actually one of the canon party people, feeling I want to keep my friends by my side and these are the returning cast. however, Imoen was not going to be a part of either game until a last second decision, and this in turn caused her to suffer on the banter front. her voice sets in BG1 were stolen from another character with a few made last second (heya, it me, Imoen!). she was meant to die in spellhold before she swapped fate with Yoshimo (he even has banters in TOB and SOA after spellhold). in BG1 I fear dual classing her if I don't have another thief as I did on my current game. i will likely continue to take her as she is a very capable thief and was quickly made an important character to charnames story that it doesn't feel right dropping her, but I won't ever claim she is the greatest NPC ever. i actually keepered her experience to catch her up with the party on my current game so she wouldn't be so far behind that I might as well keep my original party when we had more.
Though really, a lot of the companions or even just classes are overrated as people somehow always bring up HLAs... which aren't available for the majority of the series. Or at least, that's my impression, but I can't see ToB being a longer campaign than BGI+SoA combined?
Jan, Haer'Dalis, Minsc, and Viconia however are all fairly moderate on the power scale and I don't think anyone ever thinks of them as super powerful.
Out of everyone I'd probably classify Sarevok as the most overrated. His stats are absurd and Deathbringer Assault can be pretty great, but he's limited by his pure Fighter class and Deathbringer Assault just isn't a reliable enough proc to really depend on.
Baeloth, for sure.
His ring is supposed to grant him an extra spells. It doesn't actually but in any case he has more spells than a sorcerer typically could cast and the ring itself can be used to create sellable gems (he takes a bit of damage for this).
His spellbook is fantastic especially given how relatively early you can pick him up (particularly in the case of single class charnames). Access to Haste, Fireball, and Dispel Magic in particular is great. By the time you pick him up the two most useful spells he doesn't initially have are probably Blindness and Glitterdust, but you can pick both of those up when he hits level 7 (which is his next level). His biggest downsides are probably the reputation loss you get picking him up (and him leaving at higher rep), his dexterity being 14, his access to level 4 spells being slower than a mage, and his inability to get 5th level spells. Overall though I think praise for him is pretty fair though.
In my travels, those I found willing to take the time to discover what lay beneath my undeniable allure often shared with me a certain feeling; one I never felt so keenly or so clearly as to name until I set foot upon the surface in my necessary exile. That feeling was a profound sense of alienation; that one had no easy place among those around them, that true connection with others was hard-scraped and often costly. Trust is for the foolish and the dead, I often said, l'alurl abbil zhah dosstan - and many, even on the surface, had led lives teaching them similar lessons. When faced with one who'd undeniably known the same struggle they'd known, some turned a kinder eye to me than they might have otherwise, finding a frail connection in that shared experience.
In some cases, tolerance for me came not merely through what I was, but the manner in which I comported myself. Some I met had known harsh treatment for aspects of their birth or a homeland they'd no control over, and found a peculiar attraction in the example of one who'd endured such trial and remained unbuckled. I took what I wanted, of life; remained mistress of my own desires and made no cringing apology for them. Many rivvil, I suspect, are at times anchored by timidity and guilt over their yearnings, in their life. While I've little sympathy for those disinclined to take control of their lives, one can hardly deny the influence of a timely example of strength and will. I walked with some who were considered heroes, and those who watched us walk often desired to follow in our footsteps.