I'm rather fond of Baeloth as well. At least as far as an NPC in BGEE (rather than the Black Pits, which I confess I have never really played). His voice is entertaining, and his comments so few and far between that they are always funny when they do occur. I feel slightly sad that he is so OP, since I feel guilty for using him. Especially in a party with Edwin and Dorn.
I voted for Imoen, because I honestly just don't understand what all the fuss is about. I used her too in my original party in BG2 and ToB, because I think pretty much everyone did. Mechanically, she's pretty good and the lack of thieves in vanilla BG2 meant she was, if not a necessity, at least desirable.
What I really don't understand is when people talk about her being required in a party or an interesting character. She isn't. She can't be, even within the assortment of dire stereotypes and archetypes that populate the BG franchise, because she actually has no real characterisation beyond a handful of lines. This is especially egregious in BG2, among a far more fleshed-out cast, but even in BG1 she lacks basic interactions and even the token characterisation other NPCs have. In BG2 she gets no banters, is removed from your party after the first dungeon, and all the interaction with 'Imoen' in your dreams is just a part of your soul taking on a familiar guise. Imoen is just dead weight for the entire saga up to ToB, when Bioware had finally resigned itself to not killing her off and actually gave her some banters. But ToB is not the BG saga, and in the rest of that saga she is largely irrelevant.
I assume her appeal comes mostly from headcanon and habituation, which are fine things to make one attached to a character, but an essential NPC make they do not.
I voted for Keldorn because I dislike the blanket area of effect for Dispel Magic, which he gets from Carsomyr. Although, to be honest it's been so long now since I played BG2 (not for lack of motivation; just too busy) I can no longer recall whether Carsomyr's Dispel applies just on the opponent that it hits, or within a radius. If Dispel is restricted to the target on hit with that sword, then Keldorn would not be my pick. Then it would be Minsc or Edwin, I guess.
i would definately say @crevsdaak is the most overrated npc. haha jk. but for real i would have to say xan. i always hear about how amusing he is with his mod and all. but even with that mod, i cannot tell you how often i wanted to say. GET OVER IT ELF! I AM GOING TO SLAP YOU SO HARD YOU'RE GONNA STARVE TO DEATH DOING CARTWHEELS!!!
Lol. No one added Cernd?! I wonder really why.. ) well, poor Cernd.. if there should be an award for the most f*ùù*^$ù*ed down NPC, he could certainly have gotten it^^ I just wonder really why the EE did not buff him a little though.. and we know all in which areas it would have been really useful for him; greater werew. form real stats, greater HLA transform real stats too, even basic initial stats (even for a basic druid!), etc.. ! But well, i guess i crashed on the wrong thread here... but that one made me smile a little in comparison though. just kidding.. though.. some truths here too... i would have loved to see a little 'beefed up' EE Cernd (in comparison again with all those 'overrated' ones..), sure.. */
Cernd's good in SoA its really just ToB where he has the big problems. At that point it wouldn't really matter what his stats were because that's when mages become time freezing powerhouses (and so Cernd would probably be frozen while your mage/mages were busy killing everyone). In any case (at least from a stats/skills standpoint) the EE's really only did minor touchups to the existing NPC's. I personally really don't mind that they didn't touch Cernd (at least not on an individual level anyways). There are a slew of mods out there for people who aren't happy with shapeshifters and I've never had an issue with what he brings to the table. Anyways, for some NPC's it made sense to boost them. Not because they were overpowered but because they were lacking the proficiencies (Anomen) and thieving skills (Imoen) they should have for their level, or because they had an item/stats that made no sense (Quayle).
Talking about Cernd!... to my personal great pleasure, i actually succeeded around january to do a personal modification to the whole Cernd / shaftshifter related class (transform parts obvioulsy), thx to DLTCEP(!) ; a thing that i've been wanted to do for a looong time, that never thought i would even (want to) try to do.. 12/15 years later ('thx' to the EE associated new tools i could notice here.. how ironic actually! )^^^ Basically, by curiosity (if only to see if that was at least and at last possible..with basic tools^), added to him and his class the much obviously needed 'regeneration' (g.)werewolf basic stat.. and a few obvious rebalancing 'little' things (real regen abilities+subsequent suited indicating icons ..but also real (low) were* ACs - no more ridiculous GWW AC-10 too lol..- , HPs, thac0..even removing the nagging bugged lefting EE transform icon after the HLA normally finished transforms, obvious natural ability to hurt others were* too with his simple basic claws/jaws (lol..), etc..) , dealing with his transforms possibilities.. and, yes, including his 'HLA', that were kinda bugged to high hell too (ah.. the '24HD' descriptions, for ex.. *) )..especially compared, indeed, to what magus (or TRUE fighters^) were able to do at similar high levels of course.. Now, i have real new fun with that Cernd though - and feel he his actually 'special' (and coherent!^) ..and what an ultra specialized shaftshifter 'wolfie' only dude like he would actually mean to be anyway..) ^- (for the few moments i had real play testing time with him..after january^), and i can say it seems totally natural for me like that, now.. and the way it should have always been actually^ ..Not sure how we can claim Cernd was fun (and more importantly balanced has it was though.. but i can understand 'underpowered' (or rather..'unbalanced' maybe^) chars DO have their charms too (it just makes the game more difficult/challenging too..in its own way). I remember i tried everything too in my days to incorporate 'vanilla' that 'new' Cernd in my runs (as i liked his..personality too.. funnily) )... maybe if someone is interested i could post the whole new thing in the mod section. Who knows. At least, he really acts & feels like a real were*, now.. *) ..and true original 'hidden' asset to any band till the end (somehow). with his own.. unexpected little tricks (and no, he always can't throw spells under his transforms with my patch, contrarily to one patch i remembered from the days.. but now, that is obviously even more fun with that limitation too though -contrarily to the end game Elemental Princes that can throw spells too btw..- .. that keeps his gameplay as a very specifical unusual/tricky/fun one always.. but/and his transforms are fun till the end for other things, always tricky to use -spells or transforms- , but add some spice & real *were persona at least..at least when he decides to use them, temporarily or not..)) ). */ I even DLed every piece of AD&D pdfs i could find (1.0 way to 4.0 lol), just to check the original AD&D 'real' *were abilities to do my 'little' transfoms modifications..and to keep it in the limit a BG game could need (compared & balanced to others NPCs/classes of course..) ).
cheers.
PS; BTw.. did you even notice that the EE introduced a new bug, right in 'our face', with the Cernd Tranforms?!.. In the original BG2, you had Force, Dexterity _and_ Constitution modified (reddened) during the Tranforms (temporarily adjusted with the real transform partial but actual *were beasties first half stats used obviously).. normal^. Now in the vanilla EE.. only the F./D. is actually 'harmonized'/reddened.. I corrected that one frst too, obviouly.. that may add some 'sensations' feels too (and basic HPs little boost too..or not^ - at least for poor Cernd low initial Const., that is..if only that, especially at low lvls^)..if not only esthetical/'gameplay feel' effect too..especially if you remember what a basic 25 regen means too, in the basic rules too.. if only to vaguely remember the regen part..obviously, to add real werew* regen levels, there is a little more than that..that's a little more tricky (and a few more script lines to add..), but yes, doable..the funny thing is i could see thx to DLTCEP _why_ the (at least g.)were* regen did not work; they actually initially (original BG2 real files!) put the regen script line at the wrong place lol.. but that was there already (2hp/s for the greater w..if i remember well..a troll is 1hp/sec in comparison^).. i just (among a few other too.. though, not fair, under EE1, an early wannabe shaftshifter will never have (yet) the g.werew ability, but will have real fun and pleasure to talk to his lesser nephews/cousins^.. instead of just sitting there unable to hit them.. little 'common sense' things).. as for the g.regen part, just had to put the exact same script line in the right place (hint; on claws, not on char.. *) ) .. etc. and yes.. that is working now). Well.. now the guy in the Island, in BG1 ("Karog"?!), could have a real buddy to talk to..at high enough lvls^ ..even if not exactly the same specie, hating, killing and hunting each others with love (well reflected in the original BG1 island scenario btw..almost^).. will have some answers (real) barking to them too -as if even the lesser were* could not hit each others lol.. in the current unmodified vanillas again.. */ - (nota; in BG2, a shaftshifter/Cernd will never have, anyway, a lot of daily GWW transforms available due to the lv15/16 huge xp gap alas..most part of the standard game, before TOB^..and under TOB, as such, that was indeed, actually becoming useless then, untouched too.. / )... but will be already closer to what a 'real' werew. is anyway.. lol ^
And now.. when you see the damages a new char like the 1/2 Black Orc can do.. don't feel my modif is unbalancing anything at all.. at least the shapeshift special fun (but also limitations) is (are) preserved.. ))
Minsc is by far the most overrated character. I understand that people like him because of his personality, but when it comes to gameplay he is the worst at what he does. Every single other fighter in pretty much both BG1 and BG2 are better than him.
The only saving grace he has is his high STR but that can be worked around in both BG1 and BG2.
The ranger class is also pretty horrible in both BG1 and BG2 and his rage isn't useful. I wouldn't pick him over any other 'fighter' in any of the games.
Edwin - The best spell caster in the game, will be better than CHARNAME as well because his amulet. He might not have the best stats but mages don't need high stats and he has maximum health from his constitution, highest possible intellect and +2 extra spells.
Keldorn - The only paladin in the game which means he is the only one that can use Carsomyr/Purifier (except CHARNAME) which puts him in a great spot. Throw the gauntlets of Dexterity on him and he got some of the best stats in the entire game.
He also comes with two amazing personal items, a full plate +1 with freedom on it and a nice two handed sword +2. With a STR belt, the gauntlets of Dexterity and Carsomyr he is going to wreck things. He also has a natural 18 charisma so he can be the party leader. His kit is also one of the strongest in the entire game, that dispel is so powerful you won't ever need anything else. He makes every mage fight trivial and mage fights are the hardest fights in the game.
Imoen - The only fault with Imoen is that you're losing her most of BG2. But she has amazing stats and makes up for the best rogue in BG1 and a great mage in BG2. She also has all the rogue skills that she'll need for BG2.
Haer'Dalis - There is nothing impressive with his stats or his personal equipment. But he is a blade and if you can play this class properly, he will be incredible powerful. His class will carry him.
Viconia - She has 65% innate magic resistance, the only one in the game that can reach 100% easily without stacking too many items onto herself. Throw onto her Human flesh +5 to gain 20% magic resistance, this brings her 85% now throw in the amulet that gives you 10% MR and she's sitting on 95%. Both of these items won't be items that other characters will fight for, so it's both easy to get and you won't sacrifice that much for it, unless you're playing with a good party.
She also has 18 wisdom and 19 dexterity, her con isn't that fatal as she should be on the back line. She is a great CLERIC, while she won't be that good in close combat, she's still very powerful. She's getting carried by her 65% innate magic resistance.
Jan - The only progressive thief that you can keep the entire game. He's a great thief and a wonderful mage, he's specialized so he'll gain one more spell and his personal equipment is great. He is by far the best thief in the game, and i would even put him above Imoen when it comes to usefulness.
I'll give Edwin a slight edge over Minsc as the more overrated character in BG, and for BG2, Minsc is decidedly the more overrated character. Can't choose both. LOL
Minsc: ~Kivan fills almost exactly the same strategic purpose in any full party [GOOD] without competing for the Gauntlets of Dexterity. Minsc is great fun as a temporary flavor in BG Chap.1-3 when his strength is very useful and having his big body along with Ajantis makes for good on-screen presence as a "Bring it on!!" Frontline. But I cannot agree with anything about him being a longer-term "must-have" from either a Power-Game or RP perspective. Besides-- my Cosmic Cockatiel gets insanely jealous of Boo...
Jaheira: ~Exhibit A: Her Animate Dead is pathetic. Exhibit B: Her Silence 15ft radius is..... Exhibit C: Her Command:Die....well you get the picture! Exhibit Her Multi-class Status levels slowly. If only she could have been a Ranger/Cleric! Exhibit E: "Better Leadership would help..." is not a comment I choose to ignore indefinitely. Perhaps it could be deleted from her scripts by a Mod.
Imoen: I am wondering just how Bioware Devs might have journaled the course of Imoen's Dual-Classing until she regained Thief abilities. Was it a party running without a reliable strategy for Traps [60% min] other than Tanks and Sanctuary? After Nashkel Mines and Bandit Camp that is strongly Metagamish, IMHO. If there is only one NPC that cries out for Stats-Mod it must be Coran who turns up at just the right time and place for upgrading the good party's Ranger Stealth that will be lost in Baldur's Gate city and also taking over Trap Finding duties from Imoen. But he needs 60,000+ full party XP before he can get 60% Trap-finding... And his class-breaking Archery stats are total overkill. ~Phooey!!
Minsc: ~Kivan fills almost exactly the same strategic purpose in any full party [GOOD] without competing for the Gauntlets of Dexterity. Minsc is great fun as a temporary flavor in BG Chap.1-3 when his strength is very useful and having his big body along with Ajantis makes for good on-screen presence as a "Bring it on!!" Frontline. But I cannot agree with anything about him being a longer-term "must-have" from either a Power-Game or RP perspective. Besides-- my Cosmic Cockatiel gets insanely jealous of Boo...
Jaheira: ~Exhibit A: Her Animate Dead is pathetic. Exhibit B: Her Silence 15ft radius is..... Exhibit C: Her Command:Die....well you get the picture! Exhibit Her Multi-class Status levels slowly. If only she could have been a Ranger/Cleric! Exhibit E: "Better Leadership would help..." is not a comment I choose to ignore indefinitely. Perhaps it could be deleted from her scripts by a Mod.
Imoen: I am wondering just how Bioware Devs might have journaled the course of Imoen's Dual-Classing until she regained Thief abilities. Was it a party running without a reliable strategy for Traps [60% min] other than Tanks and Sanctuary? After Nashkel Mines and Bandit Camp that is strongly Metagamish, IMHO. If there is only one NPC that cries out for Stats-Mod it must be Coran who turns up at just the right time and place for upgrading the good party's Ranger Stealth that will be lost in Baldur's Gate city and also taking over Trap Finding duties from Imoen. But he needs 60,000+ full party XP before he can get 60% Trap-finding... And his class-breaking Archery stats are total overkill. ~Phooey!!
Jaheira being a F/D is already more powerful than any pure class fighter out there. This is a case again of her class making her powerful. She also happens to have very good stats in BG2, throw a STR belt onto her and she got a very good melee stat line of 19/17/17.
Silence 15ft is incredible powerful if you can use it correctly.
Her Multi-Class is what makes her stronger than ordinary fighters. Iron Skin, Defensive Harmony, Insect Plague, Summons. Yes she might level up slower, but she can do several things at once and mid-end game she'll be a very powerful fighter with some amazing defensive spells and summons to aid her.
Her personality can be very frustrating, but gameplay wise she is a very solid choice. She is mediocre in BG1 but with her stat boost in BG2 she's very good.
Imoen in BG2 is actually very true to her BG1 character. The best option for her if you want to dual class is to reach level 7 rogue and then dual class her to mage and get to level 8 to reclaim your rogue skills in BG1. This is the exact same level progression she starts out with in BG2.
@SionIV: I agree that Jaheira is much better in BG2 with a major Quest-line. Druids in general start slow and then get some awesome powers at higher levels. The point in this polling context is not that she should be a "Back-bencher" but that IMHO she is more over-rated as an NPC that almost everyone includes in the party on every playthrough than, for example Edwin or Viconia. Just an opinion! Cheers!
I don't really feel like reading through five pages of debate and opinions, but I'll add in my own.
My answer is Edwin. It was soooo close, however. Viconia nearly beat him, but at least as a character I find her mildly interesting. I don't find her interesting as a romance, and she's only a good cleric, hardly what I would call the best. However, Edwin has no redeeming qualities in my book. He has extra spells. Whoopdi-*bleeping*-doo. Not to mention, he's one of the most grating characters as a completely moral-less character who never struck me as having any depth. I also dislike him simply because he has a fan club. Why does he have a fan club?! I understand lots of people think "evil is cool", but I've absolutely never understood why he has a fan club. SO many people seem to like him, and why? Is it just because of his extra spells? I will never understand, nor will I ever like him. Even if they're weaker, I prefer every other evil caster than him.
*Note: I said he's moral-less, but I do like other moral-less characters. It's because they're ACTUALLY ENTERTAINING. He's just an arrogant brat. The lack of morals just makes me dislike him more.
Aside from those two, my opinions are as thus:
Keldorn: He's overrated? I knew people thought he was good, but I thought everyone believed him to be only a good party member, not a dominating god of death.
Imoen: Not what I would call overrated. I love Imoen, but she's not spectacular. I like her because of her connection to the main character and to the story.
Haer'Dalis: I didn't know everyone thought he was that good. I thought he was considered the "extra" of vanilla BG2's evil party, and that he wasn't spectacular.
Minsc: Ah, Minsc... Yeah. He's overrated. I love Minsc, and his stupid charm hasn't yet worn off for me, but he is overrated. I never considered his combat abilities to be exceptional, though.
Baeloth: People thought he was OP? Well even if he is an "almighty sorcerer", he's not too devastating. He's good, but he's only in BG1, which is so low-level as to make it not that challenging anyway. I feel like he could have been monstrous in BG2, but there are too many other good arcane casters in BG1 for him to be overrated.
Dorn: Not overrated at all. His stats are completely legitimate and are in no way "OP".
Jan: I don't think Jan's overrated. He's very funny, and I feel that the people who disagree aren't necessarily wrong, but just have a different sense of humour. But appealing to a wide audience with your comedy isn't a bad thing, and I don't think it makes him overrated.
Anyway, those're my opinions. Feel free to disagree. I'm sure people will.
I don't really feel like reading through five pages of debate and opinions, but I'll add in my own.
My answer is Edwin. It was soooo close, however. Viconia nearly beat him, but at least as a character I find her mildly interesting. I don't find her interesting as a romance, and she's only a good cleric, hardly what I would call the best. However, Edwin has no redeeming qualities in my book. He has extra spells. Whoopdi-*bleeping*-doo. Not to mention, he's one of the most grating characters as a completely moral-less character who never struck me as having any depth. I also dislike him simply because he has a fan club. Why does he have a fan club?! I understand lots of people think "evil is cool", but I've absolutely never understood why he has a fan club. SO many people seem to like him, and why? Is it just because of his extra spells? I will never understand, nor will I ever like him. Even if they're weaker, I prefer every other evil caster than him.
*Note: I said he's moral-less, but I do like other moral-less characters. It's because they're ACTUALLY ENTERTAINING. He's just an arrogant brat. The lack of morals just makes me dislike him more.
Aside from those two, my opinions are as thus:
Keldorn: He's overrated? I knew people thought he was good, but I thought everyone believed him to be only a good party member, not a dominating god of death.
Imoen: Not what I would call overrated. I love Imoen, but she's not spectacular. I like her because of her connection to the main character and to the story.
Haer'Dalis: I didn't know everyone thought he was that good. I thought he was considered the "extra" of vanilla BG2's evil party, and that he wasn't spectacular.
Minsc: Ah, Minsc... Yeah. He's overrated. I love Minsc, and his stupid charm hasn't yet worn off for me, but he is overrated. I never considered his combat abilities to be exceptional, though.
Baeloth: People thought he was OP? Well even if he is an "almighty sorcerer", he's not too devastating. He's good, but he's only in BG1, which is so low-level as to make it not that challenging anyway. I feel like he could have been monstrous in BG2, but there are too many other good arcane casters in BG1 for him to be overrated.
Dorn: Not overrated at all. His stats are completely legitimate and are in no way "OP".
Jan: I don't think Jan's overrated. He's very funny, and I feel that the people who disagree aren't necessarily wrong, but just have a different sense of humour. But appealing to a wide audience with your comedy isn't a bad thing, and I don't think it makes him overrated.
Anyway, those're my opinions. Feel free to disagree. I'm sure people will.
To make it short.
Keldorn - Inquisitor. This class is incredible powerful to the point of breaking the game.
Haer'Dalis - Bad stats and wouldn't be that good of a character if it wasn't because he is a BLADE. Blades are amazingly good in this game.
Edwin - Arcane casters are the most powerful characters in the game. That he is a specialized conjurer is insanely good as he won't lose out on any important spells. Giving him his amulet with additional spells on top of this is just insane. People might not see how good this is, but it isn't JUST two more magic missile, it's two more level 9 spells as well. The reason he has a fan club is because he's the most powerful character in the game, even more so than CHARNAME.
Just a question to throw at the both of you. Other readers are welcome to weigh in too ^_^
Let's say you are fighting each other in a gunfighting duel like those portrayed in old Westerns. Each of you has a 0.44 Magnum (say, the newest Smith and Wesson Model 29) that you are using for the duel. @Elrandir has three bullets in his handgun. @SionIV has six bullets in his handgun.
I have two questions:
1. Who has the more powerful gun? 2. Who will win the duel, and why?
This is more for curiosity and amusement - not just for myself, but also to illustrate something for the reader. No need to read too much into the questions for now - just answer the two questions I posed. Thank you
Just a question to throw at the both of you. Other readers are welcome to weigh in too ^_^
Let's say you are fighting each other in a gunfighting duel like those portrayed in old Westerns. Each of you has a 0.44 Magnum (say, the newest Smith and Wesson Model 29) that you are using for the duel. @Elrandir has three bullets in his handgun. @SionIV has six bullets in his handgun.
I have two questions:
1. Who has the more powerful gun? 2. Who will win the duel, and why?
This is more for curiosity and amusement - not just for myself, but also to illustrate something for the reader. No need to read too much into the questions for now - just answer the two questions I posed. Thank you
Normally? It wouldn't make a difference, only requires one well placed shot.
But when you can dodge (AC), be immune (Mantle, PFMW) or have thick hide like a Rhino (Damage reduction) then you'll want as many shots as possible. :P
For simplicity, may I request that the answers are presented so it's easier for the reader to digest:
1. Who has the more powerful gun? 2. Who will win the duel, and why?
You missed the second question too. Just humor me for now. It should be an enlightening discussion for all
1.) We have a gun of equal power.
2.) Hopefully Elrandir has a horrible aim so 3 bullets might not be enough for him. I do know that i have a horrible aim, but i'm sure that i'll hit at least one out of six. So, i'll be the winner! Unless he's like REALLY lucky or very skilled with firearms, then i'll demand someone else to be tested against.
I have to agree with @SionIV here. Besides, in the game duels are as rare as they are awesome, so since you have to deal so often with mobs rather than individuals 6 bullets is better.
Nevertheless, I also agree with @Elrandir that one extra spell per level doesn't make Edwin some kind of God. The only difference with other specialist mages (charname or mod NPCs) is that you might have to rest a few times less.
I have to agree with @SionIV here. Besides, in the game duels are as rare as they are awesome, so since you have to deal so often with mobs rather than individuals 6 bullets is better.
Nevertheless, I also agree with @Elrandir that one extra spell per level doesn't make Edwin some kind of God. The only difference with other specialist mages (charname or mod NPCs) is that you might have to rest a few times less.
I do agree with you here, god is quite a bit far to go.
Mages -> Highest on the food chain. CHARNAME -> Child of Bhaal. Edwin -> DEMI god.
I chose Minsc, for two reasons. The first is that I cannot stand him. I'd rather have noober in a party. The second is that the creator of the Baldur's Gate series were far too enamoured with him. He's forced on you at the begining of BG 2, if you do take him he never shuts up and when he's supposed to be quirky and amusing he just comes of grating.
My second choice would be Viconia. Her low constitution and strength means she has less versatility than say Branwen or Jaheria. She often acts stupid evil and becomes so annoying and needy when romanced.
I chose Minsc, for two reasons. The first is that I cannot stand him. I'd rather have noober in a party. The second is that the creator of the Baldur's Gate series were far too enamoured with him. He's forced on you at the begining of BG 2, if you do take him he never shuts up and when he's supposed to be quirky and amusing he just comes of grating.
It's eerie - this is almost precisely how I feel about Imoen.
Minsc is completely overrated : - crappy class/kit. If you want a ranger, play valygar. If you want something good, play keldorn - crappy stats. His strength his good but that's it. And strength is anyway easy to raise artificially.
I chose Minsc, for two reasons. The first is that I cannot stand him. I'd rather have noober in a party. The second is that the creator of the Baldur's Gate series were far too enamoured with him. He's forced on you at the begining of BG 2, if you do take him he never shuts up and when he's supposed to be quirky and amusing he just comes of grating.
It's eerie - this is almost precisely how I feel about Imoen.
My answer is Edwin. It was soooo close, however. Viconia nearly beat him, but at least as a character I find her mildly interesting. I don't find her interesting as a romance, and she's only a good cleric, hardly what I would call the best. However, Edwin has no redeeming qualities in my book. He has extra spells. Whoopdi-*bleeping*-doo. Not to mention, he's one of the most grating characters as a completely moral-less character who never struck me as having any depth. I also dislike him simply because he has a fan club. Why does he have a fan club?! I understand lots of people think "evil is cool", but I've absolutely never understood why he has a fan club. SO many people seem to like him, and why? Is it just because of his extra spells? I will never understand, nor will I ever like him. Even if they're weaker, I prefer every other evil caster than him.
BG1 is a different story because invisibility spells are rarely used so he has basically no downside there, so I'm talking BG2 here (and just the base game, no mods or anything like that).
I think Edwin's bonus number of spells would be a lot more significant pre-level 18 if you could actually get reliable access to all the level 7 and 8 spells before the underdark. You can buy a few scrolls for them before then (like Spell Sequencer and Limited Wish), get some from drops/pickpocketing guards (which is still random though) and you can get a few of them from the ambushes involving the cowled wizards. Also Edwin starts out with Power Word: Stun. But overall what you end up with is kind of a crapshoot.
The thing is though that getting to level 12 as a mage (750,000 xp) gives you at least 4 spells from spell levels 1-5. That is not counting any rings or magical items that might boost them further. So a good portion of the spell levels that end up getting edwins +3 bonus (+3 compared to a normal mage like Nalia) are going to be for spells that you already have a pretty good number of castings for already.
Given that (prior to Improve Alacrity) you are restricted to casting one spell a round anyways that makes the benefit for these spell levels pretty marginal.
His access to level 6 spells does make a big difference though, mostly because of Improved Haste. However, there are a bunch of level 6 spells like the Death Spell you only really need one casting of (unless you don't plan on resting).
In the underdark the access to additional spells is nice but in the case of Mind Flayers and Beholders lower level spells (like Animate Dead) end up working fine (not amazing apparently in the case of Mind Flayers but fine).
Level 18 in later is a an entirely different situation. But at that stage even your basic regular mage can cast a Timestop followed by a horrid wilting and 6 skull traps (through triggers). At that level every mage basically becomes extremely powerful.
Also for those playing on a no/low-reload, core+ difficulty run technically speaking he has a greater chance of failing to learn any non-conjuration spell compared to Neera, Nalia or Imoen (he has a 70% success rate for these spells vs their 75). The difference being if you really need them to they can have 100% success rate when it comes to learning spells (with enough potion/item boosts) while he maxes out at 85%. Doesn't mean much for anyone willing to just reload or lower the difficulty to learn spells, but for anyone looking to not reload or to stay on core (or greater) difficulty its certainly a negative. The fact that he can learn level 9 spells without assistance is also pretty minor compared to this I think.
So overall I'd say like every single class mage he becomes godlike at the end of SoA/start of BG2, but overall he is the most overrated NPC.
My answer is Edwin. It was soooo close, however. Viconia nearly beat him, but at least as a character I find her mildly interesting. I don't find her interesting as a romance, and she's only a good cleric, hardly what I would call the best. However, Edwin has no redeeming qualities in my book. He has extra spells. Whoopdi-*bleeping*-doo. Not to mention, he's one of the most grating characters as a completely moral-less character who never struck me as having any depth. I also dislike him simply because he has a fan club. Why does he have a fan club?! I understand lots of people think "evil is cool", but I've absolutely never understood why he has a fan club. SO many people seem to like him, and why? Is it just because of his extra spells? I will never understand, nor will I ever like him. Even if they're weaker, I prefer every other evil caster than him.
BG1 is a different story because invisibility spells are rarely used so he has basically no downside there, so I'm talking BG2 here (and just the base game, no mods or anything like that).
I think Edwin's bonus number of spells would be a lot more significant pre-level 18 if you could actually get reliable access to all the level 7 and 8 spells before the underdark. You can buy a few scrolls for them before then (like Spell Sequencer and Limited Wish), get some from drops/pickpocketing guards (which is still random though) and you can get a few of them from the ambushes involving the cowled wizards. Also Edwin starts out with Power Word: Stun. But overall what you end up with is kind of a crapshoot.
The thing is though that getting to level 12 as a mage (750,000 xp) gives you at least 4 spells from spell levels 1-5. That is not counting any rings or magical items that might boost them further. So a good portion of the spell levels that end up getting edwins +3 bonus (+3 compared to a normal mage like Nalia) are going to be for spells that you already have a pretty good number of castings for already.
Given that (prior to Improve Alacrity) you are restricted to casting one spell a round anyways that makes the benefit for these spell levels pretty marginal.
His access to level 6 spells does make a big difference though, mostly because of Improved Haste. However, there are a bunch of level 6 spells like the Death Spell you only really need one casting of (unless you don't plan on resting).
In the underdark the access to additional spells is nice but in the case of Mind Flayers and Beholders lower level spells (like Animate Dead) end up working fine (not amazing apparently in the case of Mind Flayers but fine).
Level 18 in later is a an entirely different situation. But at that stage even your basic regular mage can cast a Timestop followed by a horrid wilting and 6 skull traps (through triggers). At that level every mage basically becomes extremely powerful.
Also for those playing on a no/low-reload, core+ difficulty run technically speaking he has a greater chance of failing to learn any non-conjuration spell compared to Neera, Nalia or Imoen (he has a 70% success rate for these spells vs their 75). The difference being if you really need them to they can have 100% success rate when it comes to learning spells (with enough potion/item boosts) while he maxes out at 85%. Doesn't mean much for anyone willing to just reload or lower the difficulty to learn spells, but for anyone looking to not reload or to stay on core (or greater) difficulty its certainly a negative. The fact that he can learn level 9 spells without assistance is also pretty minor compared to this I think.
So overall I'd say like every single class mage he becomes godlike at the end of SoA/start of BG2, but overall he is the most overrated NPC.
Would like to mention that you'll find many level 7-8 spells in chapter 2. Some of them are always there, other's will be from random drops and then you're able to steal up to level 9 spell scrolls from normal city guards.
It's not uncommon to have most of the level 7 or 8 spells before reaching spellhold.
Indeed. I actually prefer two Fighter/Mages to one pure Mage and one pure Fighter, even if the pure mage has more spells. For mages to be effective, a lot of factors are in play:
1. Quality of spells 2. Number of spells 3. Casting speed 4. Rate of casting (that which you mentioned. One mage can only cast one spell per round, so his spell output is fixed at one spell per round even if he has a lot of spells)
"It's not uncommon to have most of the level 7 or 8 spells before reaching spellhold."
Unless you are going around pickpocketing every guard you can find and are really lucky and don't get repeats, its actually pretty uncommon to have most of the level 7 or 8 spells before spellhold.
"It's not uncommon to have most of the level 7 or 8 spells before reaching spellhold."
Unless you are going around pickpocketing every guard you can find and are really lucky and don't get repeats, its actually pretty uncommon to have most of the level 7 or 8 spells before spellhold.
It really isn't? You'll find those scrolls in Planar Sphere, Firkraags dungeon, Cooper Cornet guy sells level 7 scrolls. Lethinan drops level 6-7 scrolls as well. You'll also find them in the astral prison on both the warden and the Yuan ti.
You're able to pick them up as random drop from loads of places. Have had goblins in Irenicus Dungeon drop pierce shield (level 8) and the cooper coronet guards normally give them to me as well.
The lady that sells scroll in Ribalds store also sell 1 level 7 spell and two or three level 8 spells.
You'll also find them in the containers in the Temple Ruins.
[Edited] : I'm loading up one of my saves now to see at Ribalds what i've sold him when it comes to scrolls and report back what i've found this run.
I think you guys are forgetting how many high level scrolls there are out there. Without stealing a single scroll i've sold to Ribald the following :
Project Image Control Undead Improved Mantle Cacofiend Sphere of Chaos Mass Invisibility Mantle Protection from Energy Mordenkaine's sword Summon Hakeashar Symbol Fear Pierce Shield Abi'Dalzim's horrid wilting
And i'm sure i've sold other scrolls to other vendors that i can't remember.
If you look at the scrolls you can buy from shops, here you go.
There are 13 (14 with ToB) level 8 scrolls in the game. There are 20 (21 with ToB) level 7 scrolls in the game.
So from those two vendors alone you're up on 5/13 and 7/20. There are loads out there in the dungeons, you get some from random drops, you can pick up a ton of spells from pickpocketing guards including level 9 spells. If you're a mage then it's also possible that you end up killing the cowled wizards instead of paying them, this will grant you even MORE spells.
So yes it's not very hard to get most of the level 7-8 spells in chapter 2.
So from the stuff i've sold to Ribald and buying scrolls in the shop, my party would right now have.
10/13 level 8 spells. 14/20 level 7 spells.
This is without having stolen a single scroll and i haven't killed any cowled wizard.
[Edited] :
Scouting a bit on the Internet for some locations where you always pick up high level scrolls, i've found two more of each level.
Summon Hakeashar (7) - Gracien in Ployers house. Sphere of Chaos (7) - Planar Prison. Warding Whip (8) - Planar sphere. Spell Trigger (8) - Malacazar in Ployers house.
So along with the scrolls you get from the two shops and throw in those we're sitting on.
7/13 level 8 spells. 9/20 level 7 spells.
This is without having looted a single random scroll in the game, and i'm sure there are other scrolls that are permanently in their location that i'm forgetting.
So yes even with minimal luck you'll be able to get most of the spells (7&8) in chapter 2.
I think you guys are forgetting how many high level scrolls there are out there. Without stealing a single scroll i've sold to Ribald the following :
Project Image Control Undead Improved Mantle Cacofiend Sphere of Chaos Mass Invisibility Mantle Protection from Energy Mordenkaine's sword Summon Hakeashar Symbol Fear Pierce Shield Abi'Dalzim's horrid wilting
And i'm sure i've sold other scrolls to other vendors that i can't remember.
If you look at the scrolls you can buy from shops, here you go.
There are 13 (14 with ToB) level 8 scrolls in the game. There are 20 (21 with ToB) level 7 scrolls in the game.
So from those two vendors alone you're up on 5/13 and 7/20. There are loads out there in the dungeons, you get some from random drops, you can pick up a ton of spells from pickpocketing guards including level 9 spells. If you're a mage then it's also possible that you end up killing the cowled wizards instead of paying them, this will grant you even MORE spells.
So yes it's not very hard to get most of the level 7-8 spells in chapter 2.
As you say a lot of the spells you listed are from random drops. You can get a wide range of items from them. In fact you are more likely to give you potions, magical weapons, rings, amulets, gold, etc than a scroll (much less a scroll you don't already have or a scroll that is even level 6-9). I'm playing a game right now where before the start of spellhold I'd gotten significantly less spells than you (despite doing all the quests in chapter 2/3) and that is because its pretty random. Its based on technically on how an enemy is classified (rich, average, etc), an initial dice roll to determine what random item you get (to use Horrid Wilting or Pierce Shield as examples if you are fighting particular enemies there is like a 1/9 chance of you rolling into that particular category for random scrolls in order to roll for them) and then a roll to determine what scroll that is in that category. Its not entirely random, because the type of scrolls you can get this way is limited, but it is fairly random.
Either way the scrolls of this level that you are guaranteed to get before spellhold are pretty limited (and many of them like Symbol Death, Cacofiend, Prismatic Spray, Control Undead, Summon Efreeti, Summon Fiend aren't even that good). Even amongst the ones you've listed that you are likely to be able to use at that stage (and are any good frankly) are limited wish and spell turning. Its certainly possible for Edwin to get the 2,225,000 experience needed to get to level 16 (and thus level 8 spells) before spellhold. But in my experience this is going to be stretching it.
I think you guys are forgetting how many high level scrolls there are out there. Without stealing a single scroll i've sold to Ribald the following :
Project Image Control Undead Improved Mantle Cacofiend Sphere of Chaos Mass Invisibility Mantle Protection from Energy Mordenkaine's sword Summon Hakeashar Symbol Fear Pierce Shield Abi'Dalzim's horrid wilting
And i'm sure i've sold other scrolls to other vendors that i can't remember.
If you look at the scrolls you can buy from shops, here you go.
There are 13 (14 with ToB) level 8 scrolls in the game. There are 20 (21 with ToB) level 7 scrolls in the game.
So from those two vendors alone you're up on 5/13 and 7/20. There are loads out there in the dungeons, you get some from random drops, you can pick up a ton of spells from pickpocketing guards including level 9 spells. If you're a mage then it's also possible that you end up killing the cowled wizards instead of paying them, this will grant you even MORE spells.
So yes it's not very hard to get most of the level 7-8 spells in chapter 2.
As you say a lot of the spells you listed are from random drops. You can get a wide range of items from them. In fact you are more likely to give you potions, magical weapons, rings, amulets, gold, etc than a scroll (much less a scroll you don't already have or a scroll that is even level 6-9). I'm playing a game right now where before the start of spellhold I'd gotten significantly less spells than you (despite doing all the quests in chapter 2/3) and that is because its pretty random. Its based on technically on how an enemy is classified (rich, average, etc), an initial dice roll to determine what random item you get (to use Horrid Wilting or Pierce Shield as examples if you are fighting particular enemies there is like a 1/9 chance of you rolling into that particular category for random scrolls in order to roll for them) and then a roll to determine what scroll that is in that category. Its not entirely random, because the type of scrolls you can get this way is limited, but it is fairly random.
Either way the scrolls of this level that you are guaranteed to get before spellhold are pretty limited (and many of them like Symbol Death, Cacofiend, Prismatic Spray, Control Undead, Summon Efreeti, Summon Fiend aren't even that good). Even amongst the ones you've listed that you are likely to be able to use at that stage (and are any good frankly) are limited wish and spell turning. Its certainly possible for Edwin to get the 2,225,000 experience needed to get to level 16 (and thus level 8 spells) before spellhold. But in my experience this is going to be stretching it.
Might not be the 'best' spells around, but ALMOST (looking at you Cacofiend) all of them are useful with the right tactic.
And with minimal luck you'll still be picking up 2-3 more spell scrolls. I'm normally missing out on only a few of the spells before i reach spellhold.
For the spells i would pick on my Edwin.
[Level 7]
Spell Sequencer Prismatic Spray Summon Efreeti
[Level 8]
Spell Trigger Warding Whip Simulacrum
The spells are there, you just need to find a way to use them.
This will be my last post when it comes to Edwin in this thread, have taken up enough space when it comes to him. Arcane casters are the strongest in the game, and Edwin is the best you can get if you're after a mage.
Unless you are going around pickpocketing every guard you can find and are really lucky and don't get repeats, its actually pretty uncommon to have most of the level 7 or 8 spells before spellhold.
You can buy and get as normal loot lots of level 7 and 8 scrolls in SoA, level 6 is more into the random loot and buy category.
Comments
I voted for Imoen, because I honestly just don't understand what all the fuss is about. I used her too in my original party in BG2 and ToB, because I think pretty much everyone did. Mechanically, she's pretty good and the lack of thieves in vanilla BG2 meant she was, if not a necessity, at least desirable.
What I really don't understand is when people talk about her being required in a party or an interesting character. She isn't. She can't be, even within the assortment of dire stereotypes and archetypes that populate the BG franchise, because she actually has no real characterisation beyond a handful of lines. This is especially egregious in BG2, among a far more fleshed-out cast, but even in BG1 she lacks basic interactions and even the token characterisation other NPCs have. In BG2 she gets no banters, is removed from your party after the first dungeon, and all the interaction with 'Imoen' in your dreams is just a part of your soul taking on a familiar guise. Imoen is just dead weight for the entire saga up to ToB, when Bioware had finally resigned itself to not killing her off and actually gave her some banters. But ToB is not the BG saga, and in the rest of that saga she is largely irrelevant.
I assume her appeal comes mostly from headcanon and habituation, which are fine things to make one attached to a character, but an essential NPC make they do not.
a thing that i've been wanted to do for a looong time, that never thought i would even (want to) try to do.. 12/15 years later ('thx' to the EE associated new tools i could notice here.. how ironic actually!
Basically, by curiosity (if only to see if that was at least and at last possible..with basic tools^), added to him and his class the much obviously needed 'regeneration' (g.)werewolf basic stat.. and a few obvious rebalancing 'little' things (real regen abilities+subsequent suited indicating icons ..but also real (low) were* ACs - no more ridiculous GWW AC-10 too lol..- , HPs, thac0..even removing the nagging bugged lefting EE transform icon after the HLA normally finished transforms, obvious natural ability to hurt others were* too with his simple basic claws/jaws (lol..), etc..) , dealing with his transforms possibilities.. and, yes, including his 'HLA', that were kinda bugged to high hell too (ah.. the '24HD' descriptions, for ex.. *) )..especially compared, indeed, to what magus (or TRUE fighters^) were able to do at similar high levels of course.. Now, i have real new fun with that Cernd though - and feel he his actually 'special' (and coherent!^) ..and what an ultra specialized shaftshifter 'wolfie' only dude like he would actually mean to be anyway..) ^- (for the few moments i had real play testing time with him..after january^), and i can say it seems totally natural for me like that, now.. and the way it should have always been actually^ ..Not sure how we can claim Cernd was fun (and more importantly balanced has it was though.. but i can understand 'underpowered' (or rather..'unbalanced' maybe^) chars DO have their charms too (it just makes the game more difficult/challenging too..in its own way). I remember i tried everything too in my days to incorporate 'vanilla' that 'new' Cernd in my runs (as i liked his..personality too.. funnily) )... maybe if someone is interested i could post the whole new thing in the mod section. Who knows. At least, he really acts & feels like a real were*, now.. *) ..and true original 'hidden' asset to any band till the end (somehow). with his own.. unexpected little tricks (and no, he always can't throw spells under his transforms with my patch, contrarily to one patch i remembered from the days.. but now, that is obviously even more fun with that limitation too though -contrarily to the end game Elemental Princes that can throw spells too btw..- .. that keeps his gameplay as a very specifical unusual/tricky/fun one always.. but/and his transforms are fun till the end for other things, always tricky to use -spells or transforms- , but add some spice & real *were persona at least..at least when he decides to use them, temporarily or not..)) ). */
I even DLed every piece of AD&D pdfs i could find (1.0 way to 4.0 lol), just to check the original AD&D 'real' *were abilities to do my 'little' transfoms modifications..and to keep it in the limit a BG game could need (compared & balanced to others NPCs/classes of course..) ).
cheers.
PS;
BTw.. did you even notice that the EE introduced a new bug, right in 'our face', with the Cernd Tranforms?!.. In the original BG2, you had Force, Dexterity _and_ Constitution modified (reddened) during the Tranforms (temporarily adjusted with the real transform partial but actual *were beasties first half stats used obviously).. normal^. Now in the vanilla EE.. only the F./D. is actually 'harmonized'/reddened.. I corrected that one frst too, obviouly.. that may add some 'sensations' feels too (and basic HPs little boost too..or not^ - at least for poor Cernd low initial Const., that is..if only that, especially at low lvls^)..if not only esthetical/'gameplay feel' effect too..especially if you remember what a basic 25 regen means too, in the basic rules too.. if only to vaguely remember the regen part..obviously, to add real werew* regen levels, there is a little more than that..that's a little more tricky (and a few more script lines to add..), but yes, doable..the funny thing is i could see thx to DLTCEP _why_ the (at least g.)were* regen did not work; they actually initially (original BG2 real files!) put the regen script line at the wrong place lol.. but that was there already (2hp/s for the greater w..if i remember well..a troll is 1hp/sec in comparison^).. i just (among a few other too.. though, not fair, under EE1, an early wannabe shaftshifter will never have (yet) the g.werew ability, but will have real fun and pleasure to talk to his lesser nephews/cousins^.. instead of just sitting there unable to hit them.. little 'common sense' things).. as for the g.regen part, just had to put the exact same script line in the right place (hint; on claws, not on char.. *) ) .. etc. and yes.. that is working now). Well.. now the guy in the Island, in BG1 ("Karog"?!), could have a real buddy to talk to..at high enough lvls^ ..even if not exactly the same specie, hating, killing and hunting each others with love (well reflected in the original BG1 island scenario btw..almost^).. will have some answers (real) barking to them too -as if even the lesser were* could not hit each others lol.. in the current unmodified vanillas again.. */ - (nota; in BG2, a shaftshifter/Cernd will never have, anyway, a lot of daily GWW transforms available due to the lv15/16 huge xp gap alas..most part of the standard game, before TOB^..and under TOB, as such, that was indeed, actually becoming useless then, untouched too.. / )... but will be already closer to what a 'real' werew. is anyway.. lol ^
And now.. when you see the damages a new char like the 1/2 Black Orc can do.. don't feel my modif is unbalancing anything at all.. at least the shapeshift special fun (but also limitations) is (are) preserved.. ))
(end of the parenthesis.. */ )
The only saving grace he has is his high STR but that can be worked around in both BG1 and BG2.
The ranger class is also pretty horrible in both BG1 and BG2 and his rage isn't useful. I wouldn't pick him over any other 'fighter' in any of the games.
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Edwin - The best spell caster in the game, will be better than CHARNAME as well because his amulet. He might not have the best stats but mages don't need high stats and he has maximum health from his constitution, highest possible intellect and +2 extra spells.
Keldorn - The only paladin in the game which means he is the only one that can use Carsomyr/Purifier (except CHARNAME) which puts him in a great spot. Throw the gauntlets of Dexterity on him and he got some of the best stats in the entire game.
He also comes with two amazing personal items, a full plate +1 with freedom on it and a nice two handed sword +2. With a STR belt, the gauntlets of Dexterity and Carsomyr he is going to wreck things. He also has a natural 18 charisma so he can be the party leader. His kit is also one of the strongest in the entire game, that dispel is so powerful you won't ever need anything else. He makes every mage fight trivial and mage fights are the hardest fights in the game.
Imoen - The only fault with Imoen is that you're losing her most of BG2. But she has amazing stats and makes up for the best rogue in BG1 and a great mage in BG2. She also has all the rogue skills that she'll need for BG2.
Haer'Dalis - There is nothing impressive with his stats or his personal equipment. But he is a blade and if you can play this class properly, he will be incredible powerful. His class will carry him.
Viconia - She has 65% innate magic resistance, the only one in the game that can reach 100% easily without stacking too many items onto herself. Throw onto her Human flesh +5 to gain 20% magic resistance, this brings her 85% now throw in the amulet that gives you 10% MR and she's sitting on 95%. Both of these items won't be items that other characters will fight for, so it's both easy to get and you won't sacrifice that much for it, unless you're playing with a good party.
She also has 18 wisdom and 19 dexterity, her con isn't that fatal as she should be on the back line. She is a great CLERIC, while she won't be that good in close combat, she's still very powerful. She's getting carried by her 65% innate magic resistance.
Jan - The only progressive thief that you can keep the entire game. He's a great thief and a wonderful mage, he's specialized so he'll gain one more spell and his personal equipment is great. He is by far the best thief in the game, and i would even put him above Imoen when it comes to usefulness.
Minsc: ~Kivan fills almost exactly the same strategic purpose in any full party [GOOD] without competing for the Gauntlets of Dexterity. Minsc is great fun as a temporary flavor in BG Chap.1-3 when his strength is very useful and having his big body along with Ajantis makes for good on-screen presence as a "Bring it on!!" Frontline. But I cannot agree with anything about him being a longer-term "must-have" from either a Power-Game or RP perspective. Besides-- my Cosmic Cockatiel gets insanely jealous of Boo...
Jaheira: ~Exhibit A: Her Animate Dead is pathetic.
Exhibit B: Her Silence 15ft radius is.....
Exhibit C: Her Command:Die....well you get the picture!
Exhibit
Exhibit E: "Better Leadership would help..." is not a comment I choose to ignore indefinitely.
Perhaps it could be deleted from her scripts by a Mod.
Imoen: I am wondering just how Bioware Devs might have journaled the course of Imoen's Dual-Classing until she regained Thief abilities. Was it a party running without a reliable strategy for Traps [60% min] other than Tanks and Sanctuary? After Nashkel Mines and Bandit Camp that is strongly Metagamish, IMHO.
If there is only one NPC that cries out for Stats-Mod it must be Coran who turns up at just the right time and place for upgrading the good party's Ranger Stealth that will be lost in Baldur's Gate city and also taking over Trap Finding duties from Imoen. But he needs 60,000+ full party XP before he can get 60% Trap-finding... And his class-breaking Archery stats are total overkill. ~Phooey!!
Silence 15ft is incredible powerful if you can use it correctly.
Her Multi-Class is what makes her stronger than ordinary fighters. Iron Skin, Defensive Harmony, Insect Plague, Summons. Yes she might level up slower, but she can do several things at once and mid-end game she'll be a very powerful fighter with some amazing defensive spells and summons to aid her.
Her personality can be very frustrating, but gameplay wise she is a very solid choice. She is mediocre in BG1 but with her stat boost in BG2 she's very good.
Imoen in BG2 is actually very true to her BG1 character. The best option for her if you want to dual class is to reach level 7 rogue and then dual class her to mage and get to level 8 to reclaim your rogue skills in BG1. This is the exact same level progression she starts out with in BG2.
My answer is Edwin. It was soooo close, however. Viconia nearly beat him, but at least as a character I find her mildly interesting. I don't find her interesting as a romance, and she's only a good cleric, hardly what I would call the best. However, Edwin has no redeeming qualities in my book. He has extra spells. Whoopdi-*bleeping*-doo. Not to mention, he's one of the most grating characters as a completely moral-less character who never struck me as having any depth. I also dislike him simply because he has a fan club. Why does he have a fan club?! I understand lots of people think "evil is cool", but I've absolutely never understood why he has a fan club. SO many people seem to like him, and why? Is it just because of his extra spells? I will never understand, nor will I ever like him. Even if they're weaker, I prefer every other evil caster than him.
*Note: I said he's moral-less, but I do like other moral-less characters. It's because they're ACTUALLY ENTERTAINING. He's just an arrogant brat. The lack of morals just makes me dislike him more.
Aside from those two, my opinions are as thus:
Keldorn: He's overrated? I knew people thought he was good, but I thought everyone believed him to be only a good party member, not a dominating god of death.
Imoen: Not what I would call overrated. I love Imoen, but she's not spectacular. I like her because of her connection to the main character and to the story.
Haer'Dalis: I didn't know everyone thought he was that good. I thought he was considered the "extra" of vanilla BG2's evil party, and that he wasn't spectacular.
Minsc: Ah, Minsc... Yeah. He's overrated. I love Minsc, and his stupid charm hasn't yet worn off for me, but he is overrated. I never considered his combat abilities to be exceptional, though.
Baeloth: People thought he was OP? Well even if he is an "almighty sorcerer", he's not too devastating. He's good, but he's only in BG1, which is so low-level as to make it not that challenging anyway. I feel like he could have been monstrous in BG2, but there are too many other good arcane casters in BG1 for him to be overrated.
Dorn: Not overrated at all. His stats are completely legitimate and are in no way "OP".
Jan: I don't think Jan's overrated. He's very funny, and I feel that the people who disagree aren't necessarily wrong, but just have a different sense of humour. But appealing to a wide audience with your comedy isn't a bad thing, and I don't think it makes him overrated.
Anyway, those're my opinions. Feel free to disagree. I'm sure people will.
Keldorn - Inquisitor. This class is incredible powerful to the point of breaking the game.
Haer'Dalis - Bad stats and wouldn't be that good of a character if it wasn't because he is a BLADE. Blades are amazingly good in this game.
Edwin - Arcane casters are the most powerful characters in the game. That he is a specialized conjurer is insanely good as he won't lose out on any important spells. Giving him his amulet with additional spells on top of this is just insane. People might not see how good this is, but it isn't JUST two more magic missile, it's two more level 9 spells as well. The reason he has a fan club is because he's the most powerful character in the game, even more so than CHARNAME.
Just a question to throw at the both of you. Other readers are welcome to weigh in too ^_^
Let's say you are fighting each other in a gunfighting duel like those portrayed in old Westerns. Each of you has a 0.44 Magnum (say, the newest Smith and Wesson Model 29) that you are using for the duel. @Elrandir has three bullets in his handgun. @SionIV has six bullets in his handgun.
I have two questions:
1. Who has the more powerful gun?
2. Who will win the duel, and why?
This is more for curiosity and amusement - not just for myself, but also to illustrate something for the reader. No need to read too much into the questions for now - just answer the two questions I posed. Thank you
But when you can dodge (AC), be immune (Mantle, PFMW) or have thick hide like a Rhino (Damage reduction) then you'll want as many shots as possible. :P
For simplicity, may I request that the answers are presented so it's easier for the reader to digest:
1. Who has the more powerful gun?
2. Who will win the duel, and why?
You missed the second question too. Just humor me for now. It should be an enlightening discussion for all
EDIT: I have moved this diversionary discussion to another thread that I opened. Thanks all.
2.) Hopefully Elrandir has a horrible aim so 3 bullets might not be enough for him. I do know that i have a horrible aim, but i'm sure that i'll hit at least one out of six. So, i'll be the winner! Unless he's like REALLY lucky or very skilled with firearms, then i'll demand someone else to be tested against.
Nevertheless, I also agree with @Elrandir that one extra spell per level doesn't make Edwin some kind of God. The only difference with other specialist mages (charname or mod NPCs) is that you might have to rest a few times less.
Mages -> Highest on the food chain.
CHARNAME -> Child of Bhaal.
Edwin -> DEMI god.
Let's not go over the top here *nods*
My second choice would be Viconia. Her low constitution and strength means she has less versatility than say Branwen or Jaheria. She often acts stupid evil and becomes so annoying and needy when romanced.
- crappy class/kit. If you want a ranger, play valygar. If you want something good, play keldorn
- crappy stats. His strength his good but that's it. And strength is anyway easy to raise artificially.
Jaheira is overrated in bg1 but really OP in bg2.
I think Edwin's bonus number of spells would be a lot more significant pre-level 18 if you could actually get reliable access to all the level 7 and 8 spells before the underdark. You can buy a few scrolls for them before then (like Spell Sequencer and Limited Wish), get some from drops/pickpocketing guards (which is still random though) and you can get a few of them from the ambushes involving the cowled wizards. Also Edwin starts out with Power Word: Stun. But overall what you end up with is kind of a crapshoot.
The thing is though that getting to level 12 as a mage (750,000 xp) gives you at least 4 spells from spell levels 1-5. That is not counting any rings or magical items that might boost them further. So a good portion of the spell levels that end up getting edwins +3 bonus (+3 compared to a normal mage like Nalia) are going to be for spells that you already have a pretty good number of castings for already.
Given that (prior to Improve Alacrity) you are restricted to casting one spell a round anyways that makes the benefit for these spell levels pretty marginal.
His access to level 6 spells does make a big difference though, mostly because of Improved Haste. However, there are a bunch of level 6 spells like the Death Spell you only really need one casting of (unless you don't plan on resting).
In the underdark the access to additional spells is nice but in the case of Mind Flayers and Beholders lower level spells (like Animate Dead) end up working fine (not amazing apparently in the case of Mind Flayers but fine).
Level 18 in later is a an entirely different situation. But at that stage even your basic regular mage can cast a Timestop followed by a horrid wilting and 6 skull traps (through triggers). At that level every mage basically becomes extremely powerful.
Also for those playing on a no/low-reload, core+ difficulty run technically speaking he has a greater chance of failing to learn any non-conjuration spell compared to Neera, Nalia or Imoen (he has a 70% success rate for these spells vs their 75). The difference being if you really need them to they can have 100% success rate when it comes to learning spells (with enough potion/item boosts) while he maxes out at 85%. Doesn't mean much for anyone willing to just reload or lower the difficulty to learn spells, but for anyone looking to not reload or to stay on core (or greater) difficulty its certainly a negative. The fact that he can learn level 9 spells without assistance is also pretty minor compared to this I think.
So overall I'd say like every single class mage he becomes godlike at the end of SoA/start of BG2, but overall he is the most overrated NPC.
It's not uncommon to have most of the level 7 or 8 spells before reaching spellhold.
Indeed. I actually prefer two Fighter/Mages to one pure Mage and one pure Fighter, even if the pure mage has more spells. For mages to be effective, a lot of factors are in play:
1. Quality of spells
2. Number of spells
3. Casting speed
4. Rate of casting (that which you mentioned. One mage can only cast one spell per round, so his spell output is fixed at one spell per round even if he has a lot of spells)
Unless you are going around pickpocketing every guard you can find and are really lucky and don't get repeats, its actually pretty uncommon to have most of the level 7 or 8 spells before spellhold.
You're able to pick them up as random drop from loads of places. Have had goblins in Irenicus Dungeon drop pierce shield (level 8) and the cooper coronet guards normally give them to me as well.
The lady that sells scroll in Ribalds store also sell 1 level 7 spell and two or three level 8 spells.
You'll also find them in the containers in the Temple Ruins.
[Edited] : I'm loading up one of my saves now to see at Ribalds what i've sold him when it comes to scrolls and report back what i've found this run.
Project Image
Control Undead
Improved Mantle
Cacofiend
Sphere of Chaos
Mass Invisibility
Mantle
Protection from Energy
Mordenkaine's sword
Summon Hakeashar
Symbol Fear
Pierce Shield
Abi'Dalzim's horrid wilting
And i'm sure i've sold other scrolls to other vendors that i can't remember.
If you look at the scrolls you can buy from shops, here you go.
Scroll seller at Ribalds :
Limited Wish (7)
Symbol Stun (8)
Symbol death (8)
Now let's look at Bernard in cooper coronet.
Spell Turning (7)
Cacofiend (7)
Spell Sequencer (7)
Prismatic Spray (7)
Controll Undead (7)
Summon Efreeti (7)
Incindery cloud (8)
Summon fiend (8)
Simulacrum (8)
7 Level 7 scrolls
5 Level 8 scrolls
Purely from vendors.
There are 13 (14 with ToB) level 8 scrolls in the game.
There are 20 (21 with ToB) level 7 scrolls in the game.
So from those two vendors alone you're up on 5/13 and 7/20. There are loads out there in the dungeons, you get some from random drops, you can pick up a ton of spells from pickpocketing guards including level 9 spells. If you're a mage then it's also possible that you end up killing the cowled wizards instead of paying them, this will grant you even MORE spells.
So yes it's not very hard to get most of the level 7-8 spells in chapter 2.
So from the stuff i've sold to Ribald and buying scrolls in the shop, my party would right now have.
10/13 level 8 spells.
14/20 level 7 spells.
This is without having stolen a single scroll and i haven't killed any cowled wizard.
[Edited] :
Scouting a bit on the Internet for some locations where you always pick up high level scrolls, i've found two more of each level.
Summon Hakeashar (7) - Gracien in Ployers house.
Sphere of Chaos (7) - Planar Prison.
Warding Whip (8) - Planar sphere.
Spell Trigger (8) - Malacazar in Ployers house.
So along with the scrolls you get from the two shops and throw in those we're sitting on.
7/13 level 8 spells.
9/20 level 7 spells.
This is without having looted a single random scroll in the game, and i'm sure there are other scrolls that are permanently in their location that i'm forgetting.
So yes even with minimal luck you'll be able to get most of the spells (7&8) in chapter 2.
Either way the scrolls of this level that you are guaranteed to get before spellhold are pretty limited (and many of them like Symbol Death, Cacofiend, Prismatic Spray, Control Undead, Summon Efreeti, Summon Fiend aren't even that good). Even amongst the ones you've listed that you are likely to be able to use at that stage (and are any good frankly) are limited wish and spell turning. Its certainly possible for Edwin to get the 2,225,000 experience needed to get to level 16 (and thus level 8 spells) before spellhold. But in my experience this is going to be stretching it.
7/13 level 8 spells.
9/20 level 7 spells.
The spells listed.
Summon Hakeashar (7)
Sphere of Chaos (7)
Spell Turning (7)
Limited Wish (7)
Cacofiend (7)
Spell Sequencer (7)
Prismatic Spray (7)
Controll Undead (7)
Summon Efreeti (7)
Incindery cloud (8)
Summon fiend (8)
Simulacrum (8)
Symbol Stun (8)
Symbol death (8)
Warding Whip (8)
Spell Trigger (8)
Might not be the 'best' spells around, but ALMOST (looking at you Cacofiend) all of them are useful with the right tactic.
And with minimal luck you'll still be picking up 2-3 more spell scrolls. I'm normally missing out on only a few of the spells before i reach spellhold.
For the spells i would pick on my Edwin.
[Level 7]
Spell Sequencer
Prismatic Spray
Summon Efreeti
[Level 8]
Spell Trigger
Warding Whip
Simulacrum
The spells are there, you just need to find a way to use them.
This will be my last post when it comes to Edwin in this thread, have taken up enough space when it comes to him. Arcane casters are the strongest in the game, and Edwin is the best you can get if you're after a mage.