And of course I have to throw in... Chaotic Neutral
Save - Because fish taste like purple. Don't Save - OooooOoooOooohhhhh, a barbecue!
Oh no... Chaotic Neutral can be crazy, but doesn't need to be!
Chaotic: Aversion to heirachy and order. Sees most organisations and governments as tools of oppression and infringement on personal liberties.
Neutral: Actions are not driven by altruistic or malicious intent. (I don't buy the 'druid balance' thing in a serious moral compass sense).
Thus: BG 1
Save:
Them damned Flaming Fists behaving like they own the place. Judge, jury and executioner... I must put an end to such a blatant abuse of official power.
Don't Save:
Ugh... those damned Flaming Fists behaving like they own the place. Oh well, at least they aren't bothering me, it's not my problem.
BG 2
Save or Don't Save pretty much depends on Charname's attitudes to Drow/Shar, whether he/she can see any personal net benefit in going through the trouble of saving Viconia. The fact that a lynch mob is hardly a manifestation of Law and Order, means that Charname's Chaotic tendency is irrelevant to the decision making. His/her lack of moral obligation to prevent a potential miscarriage of justice also means there is no reason to intervene, nor any reason not to.
I would think that a Chaotic Character of any moral persuasion would see a Lynch Mob as exactly why you can't rely on lawful orders - because they break down in the end.
Lawful Evil: Save - You say she's a murderer? Show me the body. Don't Save - Sorry, lady. My hands are tied.
I'm going to agree with @Heindrich about how CN and LN are being perceived. From the newer descriptions of the alignments CN is more about freedom than anything else. A CN character's choice to save Viconia or let her burn is based entirely on their own leanings. It may outrage a CN character to see someone bound up and cruelly murdered for their race. It could evoke feelings of fear or guilt in them if they have the ability to stop it, so they could even be motivated to help her for selfish reasons. CN can save her without needing to do it on a blind impulse. They're allowed to be rational. Remember, Neera is CN but she still cares about other wild mages. She might save Viconia out of a feeling of empathy for baseless persecution over who you are.
LN is obviously about order, but it can also refer to a personal code of ethics as opposed to whatever law is in place. In this way a LN character would be more than willing to break the laws of the land if it kept their own personal ethics. It's not like a LN character crosses a country's borders and suddenly just swaps over to blindly following the new countries laws. Even if they felt that the burning was justified under the law (she's a drow and of an evil goddess) they might object to it because capital punishment is against their personal code of ethics.
Both of the alignments have more depth than I feel people are giving them credit for.
For BG1: Chaotic Lawful Crevs - I came to this thread thinking of a song by Bob Marley (really, no joke)... Oh, look! A drow! She's beatiful... Chaotic Good Crevs - I will save her, I don't know what evil things she has done, but I feel that it's right to save her. Chaotic Evil Crevs - Murder! Death!! KIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILL!!!!! Oh, a bird, oh fuuuuuuunny! I'm gonna fry it!! Look my dear drow, I could save you, but I could also... KILL YOU!! But, you are pretty, evil, and you don't really need my help, find your own way to escape this Flaming Fist Enforcer, or just die under me!! Chaotic Neutral Crevs - Brave, brave sir... What do you want my lady? Certainly, em, I'm, well, busy, yeah, I'm busy hunting squirrels, em, I have to go! I'm sorry, but I don't really want to help... Neutral Good Crevs - I won't let you get killed nor kill the Flaming Fist, look, just go back to the Underdark or just go away, we don't want you here, and you my dear Enforcer, you can't kill this woman just because of the color of her skin, that's very unconsidered from you! Go away you too! Neutral Evil Crevs - Hahaha! A drow, uhm? A servant of Shar looking for our help, certainly, you'll have to give me the favour back, and don't expect anything else from me, this Enforcer can burn in Hell!! True Neutral Crevs - *Casts Invisibility: Crevs Daak* May Destiny decide thier fates! For Balance! Lawful Chaotic Crevs - Sure, sure, I can help you, but, wouldn't you mind if I, well, if we... I think I have to save you first, that's my guess, what do you think? Viccy...? Lawful Good Crevs - We'll judge the Drow, but you are no longer an Enforcer, and you're gonna have a trial too... The laws are here to be respected! Lawful Evil Crevs - Oooh, what do we have here *hahaha* a drow being pursued by a Flaming Fist, how... Funny *hahaha* take her, she has enough rights to be traded as a slave *evil grin*. Lawful Neutral Crevs - *Takes sword out* In the name of the Watcher! What is going on here?!? You! Before killing her, we must let Helm decide her fate *A lighting strucks Viconia* well, looks like Helm was already decided.
For BG2: Chaotic Lawful Crevs - *singing* saaaave thaaaat droooow, saaaave thaaaat droooow, hi Viconia my beauty, we are here to save you my beautiful drow lady! Chaotic Good Crevs - I don't know why those evil men want to burn this evil woman... *shouting* THIS HAS SOMETHING TO DO ABOUT GENDER?!?!? *no one replies* well, I can't let her die for their short-minded ideas, for greater good I'll save you! Chaotic Evil Crevs - I won't save you unless you show me your breasts promise me that you will give me the power, yes, I can feel it, you dislike cookies! You can't live and dislike cookies! I, I will save you to kill you myself for disliking cookies! Chaotic Neutral Crevs - *Walks by without paying attention and whistling* certainly I would like a Flash Launcher, where's that gnome that sells em'? Neutral Evil Crevs - Again! You need my help to survive Viconia? Hahaha! How.. Ironic, you gave me back my favor once, I am sure you can do it twice! Die Full-plated-drow-burner, I'm going to keep all the loot!! Haha!! Neutral Good Crevs - Dear folks of Athkatla, we've canceled this, I don't allow to burn the drow, send her to rot in prison, don't burn her. You'll go to prison too, for trying to burn people! True Neutral Crevs - *Casts Fireball: Viconia* may those ten d6 decide their fate! For Balance! Lawful Good Crevs - Don't hurry to burn her! These evil men are going to be burnt alongside her today! For justice and greater good! In Torm's name! Lawful Evil Crevs - *Hahaha* Viconia, again you are in the path to death... *Hahaha* And I am the one who tells you were to go, You will prove vey valuable as a slave, or maybe I can ally with you for Shar's favor? *evil grin*. Lawful Neutral Crevs - By Helm! Why did everyone wants to kill this woman? Haven't we talked about this before? Oh, Helm, give me patience to surpass the small minds on this world, as I've said before this woman will be sent into exile, as you will too! Lawful Chaotic Crevs - Oooh, dear Viconia, I want to sing you a song of our love *Starts singing* *the fanatics get deaf* *the fanatics burn Viccy* oh, I certainly thought that you will enjoy it...
Don't Save: If she was banished from the Under Dark, it must have been for a very damn good (evil?) reason. She must be too weak to have been cast out of the darkness by her own people, or perhaps she's another goody-goody ranger out to throw sparkles into the open air and prance around marveling the grass. If she's the latter... She's lucky I don't kill her on sight.
Save: She's a drow. She's hot. And she's good with whips. What more could I want? (Also, I hate the Flaming Fist.)
My chaotic evil sorcerer always saves her for those reasons. He hooked up with Dorn in the end, but he's certainly not going to deny himself a little eye-candy. :P
An extremely attractive Distressed Damsel begs my Chaotic Good Swashbuckler for aid. The one attacking her is doing so purely on the basis of her race with no evidence of a crime whatsoever. And he's part of the same exact group that attacked me randomly because they decided I was a highwaman. Again without evidence.
There is nothing in that scenario that does not involve me saving her.
@Aristillius You only need to look at her BG1 portrait which makes her look more like a Hag than a Drow. Big curvy nose. Thick eyebrows. Purple hair. Sunburnt skin and kinda chubby. (An oxymoron for drow)
Don't get me started on Coran that looks like a fat rapist that's not even remotely an Elf.
@Archaos A hag? Granted, Viconia is a very attractive woman in BG2, but the BG1 pic isnt particularly bad in my opinion. I guess Im just a bit tired of all the objectification. Oh, and sorry if this is taking the subject off-topic, please interject if you want to end this end of the discussion @Potoka - the thread has been very entertaining and interesting so far!
All the focus on Viconia's looks makes me wonder how many would save her if she was unattractive?
Of course I would. I try and save anyone who genuinely asks for my help. There are moments throughout the game where you can rescue people of all levels of looks and genders. Attractiveness is just a delightful bonus.
And again, the Flaming Fist are idiots who define everything a Chaotic Good Swashbuckler finds wrong with the 'Law.' Reason enough to rescue anyone from them. Even Noober.
Well, if a Troll Hag would ask me for help, I ´d be very confused. For example, that sea troll in the temple sewers - what would you do, if it would express it´s opinion about the shady potion brewer? I mean, what the sea troll has done to deserve such a mugging? But what is the weapon Viconia is wielding two-handed?
For someone lawful good, why would you knowingly save a follower of Shar? Isn't their goal to reset everything to a time before light and life? They also are known for being rather murderous, no?
Going from Lloth to Shar seems like it's going from following Hitler to Pol Pot. It's good that you left one, but it's too bad that the move was lateral.
Ironically, I feel that it's easier to justify saving Viconia if you're a good-aligned character than an evil one. IMO, a good-aligned character would intervene to stop someone from being killed in cold-blood in place of an arrest and fair trial, whereas an evil character would just say, "Meh, who cares!"
Comments
Chaotic Neutral
Save - Because fish taste like purple.
Don't Save - OooooOoooOooohhhhh, a barbecue!
Chaotic: Aversion to heirachy and order. Sees most organisations and governments as tools of oppression and infringement on personal liberties.
Neutral: Actions are not driven by altruistic or malicious intent. (I don't buy the 'druid balance' thing in a serious moral compass sense).
Thus:
BG 1
Save:
Them damned Flaming Fists behaving like they own the place. Judge, jury and executioner... I must put an end to such a blatant abuse of official power.
Don't Save:
Ugh... those damned Flaming Fists behaving like they own the place. Oh well, at least they aren't bothering me, it's not my problem.
BG 2
Save or Don't Save pretty much depends on Charname's attitudes to Drow/Shar, whether he/she can see any personal net benefit in going through the trouble of saving Viconia. The fact that a lynch mob is hardly a manifestation of Law and Order, means that Charname's Chaotic tendency is irrelevant to the decision making. His/her lack of moral obligation to prevent a potential miscarriage of justice also means there is no reason to intervene, nor any reason not to.
Lawful Evil:
Save - You say she's a murderer? Show me the body.
Don't Save - Sorry, lady. My hands are tied.
LN is obviously about order, but it can also refer to a personal code of ethics as opposed to whatever law is in place. In this way a LN character would be more than willing to break the laws of the land if it kept their own personal ethics. It's not like a LN character crosses a country's borders and suddenly just swaps over to blindly following the new countries laws. Even if they felt that the burning was justified under the law (she's a drow and of an evil goddess) they might object to it because capital punishment is against their personal code of ethics.
Both of the alignments have more depth than I feel people are giving them credit for.
Chaotic Lawful Crevs - I came to this thread thinking of a song by Bob Marley (really, no joke)... Oh, look! A drow! She's beatiful...
Chaotic Good Crevs - I will save her, I don't know what evil things she has done, but I feel that it's right to save her.
Chaotic Evil Crevs - Murder! Death!! KIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILL!!!!! Oh, a bird, oh fuuuuuuunny! I'm gonna fry it!! Look my dear drow, I could save you, but I could also... KILL YOU!! But, you are pretty, evil, and you don't really need my help, find your own way to escape this Flaming Fist Enforcer, or just die under me!!
Chaotic Neutral Crevs - Brave, brave sir... What do you want my lady? Certainly, em, I'm, well, busy, yeah, I'm busy hunting squirrels, em, I have to go! I'm sorry, but I don't really want to help...
Neutral Good Crevs - I won't let you get killed nor kill the Flaming Fist, look, just go back to the Underdark or just go away, we don't want you here, and you my dear Enforcer, you can't kill this woman just because of the color of her skin, that's very unconsidered from you! Go away you too!
Neutral Evil Crevs - Hahaha! A drow, uhm? A servant of Shar looking for our help, certainly, you'll have to give me the favour back, and don't expect anything else from me, this Enforcer can burn in Hell!!
True Neutral Crevs - *Casts Invisibility: Crevs Daak* May Destiny decide thier fates! For Balance!
Lawful Chaotic Crevs - Sure, sure, I can help you, but, wouldn't you mind if I, well, if we... I think I have to save you first, that's my guess, what do you think? Viccy...?
Lawful Good Crevs - We'll judge the Drow, but you are no longer an Enforcer, and you're gonna have a trial too... The laws are here to be respected!
Lawful Evil Crevs - Oooh, what do we have here *hahaha* a drow being pursued by a Flaming Fist, how... Funny *hahaha* take her, she has enough rights to be traded as a slave *evil grin*.
Lawful Neutral Crevs - *Takes sword out* In the name of the Watcher! What is going on here?!? You! Before killing her, we must let Helm decide her fate *A lighting strucks Viconia* well, looks like Helm was already decided.
Chaotic Lawful Crevs - *singing* saaaave thaaaat droooow, saaaave thaaaat droooow, hi Viconia my beauty, we are here to save you my beautiful drow lady!
Chaotic Good Crevs - I don't know why those evil men want to burn this evil woman... *shouting* THIS HAS SOMETHING TO DO ABOUT GENDER?!?!? *no one replies* well, I can't let her die for their short-minded ideas, for greater good I'll save you!
Chaotic Evil Crevs - I won't save you unless you show me your breasts promise me that you will give me the power, yes, I can feel it, you dislike cookies! You can't live and dislike cookies! I, I will save you to kill you myself for disliking cookies!
Chaotic Neutral Crevs - *Walks by without paying attention and whistling* certainly I would like a Flash Launcher, where's that gnome that sells em'?
Neutral Evil Crevs - Again! You need my help to survive Viconia? Hahaha! How.. Ironic, you gave me back my favor once, I am sure you can do it twice! Die Full-plated-drow-burner, I'm going to keep all the loot!! Haha!!
Neutral Good Crevs - Dear folks of Athkatla, we've canceled this, I don't allow to burn the drow, send her to rot in prison, don't burn her. You'll go to prison too, for trying to burn people!
True Neutral Crevs - *Casts Fireball: Viconia* may those ten d6 decide their fate! For Balance!
Lawful Good Crevs - Don't hurry to burn her! These evil men are going to be burnt alongside her today! For justice and greater good! In Torm's name!
Lawful Evil Crevs - *Hahaha* Viconia, again you are in the path to death... *Hahaha* And I am the one who tells you were to go, You will prove vey valuable as a slave, or maybe I can ally with you for Shar's favor? *evil grin*.
Lawful Neutral Crevs - By Helm! Why did everyone wants to kill this woman? Haven't we talked about this before? Oh, Helm, give me patience to surpass the small minds on this world, as I've said before this woman will be sent into exile, as you will too!
Lawful Chaotic Crevs - Oooh, dear Viconia, I want to sing you a song of our love *Starts singing* *the fanatics get deaf* *the fanatics burn Viccy* oh, I certainly thought that you will enjoy it...
Don't Save: If she was banished from the Under Dark, it must have been for a very damn good (evil?) reason. She must be too weak to have been cast out of the darkness by her own people, or perhaps she's another goody-goody ranger out to throw sparkles into the open air and prance around marveling the grass. If she's the latter... She's lucky I don't kill her on sight.
Save: She's a drow. She's hot. And she's good with whips. What more could I want? (Also, I hate the Flaming Fist.)
My chaotic evil sorcerer always saves her for those reasons. He hooked up with Dorn in the end, but he's certainly not going to deny himself a little eye-candy. :P
There is nothing in that scenario that does not involve me saving her.
@Aristillius - surfacers can be so shallow.
You only need to look at her BG1 portrait which makes her look more like a Hag than a Drow.
Big curvy nose. Thick eyebrows. Purple hair. Sunburnt skin and kinda chubby. (An oxymoron for drow)
Don't get me started on Coran that looks like a fat rapist that's not even remotely an Elf.
A hag? Granted, Viconia is a very attractive woman in BG2, but the BG1 pic isnt particularly bad in my opinion.
I guess Im just a bit tired of all the objectification.
Oh, and sorry if this is taking the subject off-topic, please interject if you want to end this end of the discussion @Potoka - the thread has been very entertaining and interesting so far!
And again, the Flaming Fist are idiots who define everything a Chaotic Good Swashbuckler finds wrong with the 'Law.' Reason enough to rescue anyone from them. Even Noober.
Going from Lloth to Shar seems like it's going from following Hitler to Pol Pot. It's good that you left one, but it's too bad that the move was lateral.