Why I am partly disappointed by BG2EE *BG2EE SPOILERS"
Vendis
Member Posts: 6
I've played the vanillas of BG1 and 2 years ago multiple times and they definitely were some of my favorite games. I was about to replay them when I heard someone was remaking them and I was really excited. I bought BG1EE and started playing, and I was really impressed. You could have all the kits, even some more, new movies, better animations, widescreen, new iterface, new characters. I've also liked the Black Pits. So, I had no issues with the remake. I just played it once yet for time reasons, but I think I will have another run soon and I'm looking forward to it.
Ok, I'll get to the point. Why am I disappointed of BG2EE?
It starts right with the opening movie. I was expecting a new movie, like those in BG1EE. But, it was just the old crappy one. I was really disappointed when I saw this. (I get a feeling this doesn't bother anyone else. Not sure why.) I'm also having trouble with the new journal. I found the old one just perfect and don't see why it was changed; the scrolling is broken, too. This is the only point where the vanilla was better than the EE in my opinion, but it's not a big deal on the other hand.
My main issue about the EE is, however, that most of the new quests had, to me, some major annoyance in it. Maybe I'm just totally not getting them, lacked some obvious insight or whatever, but I really want to talk about it and hear (read, respectively) what others think.
I've only played the game once yet (again, time reasons) and finished it a few days ago. I've had Dorn and Rasaad in my group and did their quests in SoA and ToB, also I did Hexxat's initial quest and Neera's quest in SoA, but didn't keep them.
So to sum up, I did not like the new content I played, which is why I am disappointed. The characters were okay, I even romanced Dorn and thought it was fine, but the quests/stories made no sense or had other issues. In future playthroughs, I guess I will try to avoid them so I don't have to bother with their quests. Hexxat could be an exception, IF I can come up with an interesting CHARNAME to take her. At this point, I also want to say that although I've been pretty negative, it's just my opinion, so don't feel offended for anything. Just tell me what you think, you're welcome to change my mind.
What I liked about the game most was the new interface, of course, and the higher resolution. Actually the best thing about it in my opinion. Anything looks better, and in the inventory screen you have all that information you didn't have in the vanilla. There are also some new portraits, higher stack sizes and, when rolling a character, you get to see how many points you have in total, just a small addition, but it really makes rolling a character a lot easier. And maybe some other stuff I don't recall right now. This is why I was just "partly" disappointed. These were the advantages why this game was worth the money I spent and is, well, a good game, in my opinion.
So, what do you think?
Ok, I'll get to the point. Why am I disappointed of BG2EE?
It starts right with the opening movie. I was expecting a new movie, like those in BG1EE. But, it was just the old crappy one. I was really disappointed when I saw this. (I get a feeling this doesn't bother anyone else. Not sure why.) I'm also having trouble with the new journal. I found the old one just perfect and don't see why it was changed; the scrolling is broken, too. This is the only point where the vanilla was better than the EE in my opinion, but it's not a big deal on the other hand.
My main issue about the EE is, however, that most of the new quests had, to me, some major annoyance in it. Maybe I'm just totally not getting them, lacked some obvious insight or whatever, but I really want to talk about it and hear (read, respectively) what others think.
I've only played the game once yet (again, time reasons) and finished it a few days ago. I've had Dorn and Rasaad in my group and did their quests in SoA and ToB, also I did Hexxat's initial quest and Neera's quest in SoA, but didn't keep them.
I'll start with Hexxat's initial quest, and I'm gonna say in advance I was disappointed. But no, I'm not gonna roll out the I-wanna-save-Clara-thing. My issue here is that this "Hexxat" I met in the Copper Coronet was what intrigued me. I wondered why her face wasn't the one in the game start screen, why she was Neutral Evil (didn't feel like it) and, maybe it's just me, but her thieving skills seemed way too low for 10th level. Even her ability scores were pretty low, she seemed totally out of place. Then she had this weird behavior, speaking so slowly and about cloudy things. She seemed as if she was high, and in fact, I was waiting for the pink elephant reference. I've read some people did not like her voice acting, but I did, I immediately got it and found it fitting. All in all, it was her weirdness that wanted me to keep her. I wanted to see her quest through as quickly as possible to see how it would turn out. I suspected she'd be getting better and less weird through this or her future quests, I was definitely going for the story here. And then, well, you know what happened. I took the bait first, followed the real Heaxxat to the Coronet and checked her out. I reloaded soon after and ripped her to pieces for roleplay. I'll do this a bit more ordered so you can understand me (hopefully).
1. Every time a member of my group dies, I "kill the bastard what done it." Why should I make an exception this time and not just attack her, let alone trusting her, take her along? The only group I can come up with, the only CHARNAME, in fact, would be either a Chaotic Neutral madman doing random stuff or the "I am evil. I seek power above all else and will make this vampire serve me." guy, making the possibilities to take Hexxat in your group extremely limited. I myself had an evil CHARNAME, but she was Lawful and a lot into the "choose comrades with care, you need to trust them" thing, so no room for Hexxat. To those who did take her: I'd really like to know how you roleplayed this and what Chars you played.
2. That aside, she doesn't interest me one bit. Okay, I don't really qualify to judge her, since I didn't take her with me and practically don't know anything about her, but, so far, she's just a vampire coming out of her grave and feasting on the living - which is what every single random vampire does. This is even amplified, in my opinion, by her ridiculously high ability scores, making her feel out of place, just like the other Hexxat, only in the opposite direction. I don't even see anything to justify them, being a vampire surely doesn't.
3. I also wonder what's with her race. I remember telling to myself "So, what's her race? Vampire. So, what's her race?" Vampire is no race.
4. So I traded the weird, perhaps underpowered yet fascinating character (remember, I'm not talking about Clara, but about Hexxat who I met in the CC) in for an uninteresting vampirella who doesn't have a race that I can't use in most groups. And on top of that, I felt the game treats me like an idiot when I don't want to take the real Hexxat with me. The dialogue is pretty limited and basically calls to you to take her in your group, mechanically, she's just the better version of the other character I had before and the journal entry for Hexxat's quest did not move to the Done Quests section, as if this was an "invalid" ending to it.
So you can see I was pretty pissed off at this quest and how you get Hexxat.
I'll move on with Dorn's quests. I've had some minor issues with those, but I think they were fine because they made sense story wise. I especially liked the wedding, because it was funny and there were interactions with old npcs, namely Anomen and Jaheira, which I thought were fitting.
Rasaad's quest made sense on one hand, and on the other, It didn't. It's stupid in my opinion that you're doing all those trials if you are no monk, or at least you'd have to do them unarmed and without armour, not with your swords. I enjoyed the two-aspects-of-the-same-goddess-thing though and the twist in the end. But, I also felt it was an extremely short quest. The trials felt more like a pre-quest to me and I expected the real stuff to start after, but then it was already over. You did not learn anything about Alorgoth or anything else important.
What really bugged me was Neera's quest. It wasn't the quest itself, I was fine with the refugee and the Thayan wizards, but as I read, the condition for the wild mages to survive was that you did their respective quests. Seriously? This is just random and makes no sense at all.
Dorn's and Rasaad's ToB quests seemed to me like the developers needed to meet a deadline and just came up with something quickly and implemented it without second thought. The places are nice, but these are just short quests without much to do, especially Dorn's. I would have expected something with his patron but it was just random stuff. Only thing you could for Azothet was sticking a sword inside a tree. Yeah, she's super evil...Also, I don't see how erasing your names from a book will prevent them from hunting you, especially after you wasted the place. They should be after you because you did. And send those dragons after you, who are ridiculously powerful, the hardest fight in the game, if I'm not mistaken. And Rasaad's quest was just his story for blind revenge, nothing special either. The more I think about them, the more they appear bad to me.
1. Every time a member of my group dies, I "kill the bastard what done it." Why should I make an exception this time and not just attack her, let alone trusting her, take her along? The only group I can come up with, the only CHARNAME, in fact, would be either a Chaotic Neutral madman doing random stuff or the "I am evil. I seek power above all else and will make this vampire serve me." guy, making the possibilities to take Hexxat in your group extremely limited. I myself had an evil CHARNAME, but she was Lawful and a lot into the "choose comrades with care, you need to trust them" thing, so no room for Hexxat. To those who did take her: I'd really like to know how you roleplayed this and what Chars you played.
2. That aside, she doesn't interest me one bit. Okay, I don't really qualify to judge her, since I didn't take her with me and practically don't know anything about her, but, so far, she's just a vampire coming out of her grave and feasting on the living - which is what every single random vampire does. This is even amplified, in my opinion, by her ridiculously high ability scores, making her feel out of place, just like the other Hexxat, only in the opposite direction. I don't even see anything to justify them, being a vampire surely doesn't.
3. I also wonder what's with her race. I remember telling to myself "So, what's her race? Vampire. So, what's her race?" Vampire is no race.
4. So I traded the weird, perhaps underpowered yet fascinating character (remember, I'm not talking about Clara, but about Hexxat who I met in the CC) in for an uninteresting vampirella who doesn't have a race that I can't use in most groups. And on top of that, I felt the game treats me like an idiot when I don't want to take the real Hexxat with me. The dialogue is pretty limited and basically calls to you to take her in your group, mechanically, she's just the better version of the other character I had before and the journal entry for Hexxat's quest did not move to the Done Quests section, as if this was an "invalid" ending to it.
So you can see I was pretty pissed off at this quest and how you get Hexxat.
I'll move on with Dorn's quests. I've had some minor issues with those, but I think they were fine because they made sense story wise. I especially liked the wedding, because it was funny and there were interactions with old npcs, namely Anomen and Jaheira, which I thought were fitting.
Rasaad's quest made sense on one hand, and on the other, It didn't. It's stupid in my opinion that you're doing all those trials if you are no monk, or at least you'd have to do them unarmed and without armour, not with your swords. I enjoyed the two-aspects-of-the-same-goddess-thing though and the twist in the end. But, I also felt it was an extremely short quest. The trials felt more like a pre-quest to me and I expected the real stuff to start after, but then it was already over. You did not learn anything about Alorgoth or anything else important.
What really bugged me was Neera's quest. It wasn't the quest itself, I was fine with the refugee and the Thayan wizards, but as I read, the condition for the wild mages to survive was that you did their respective quests. Seriously? This is just random and makes no sense at all.
Dorn's and Rasaad's ToB quests seemed to me like the developers needed to meet a deadline and just came up with something quickly and implemented it without second thought. The places are nice, but these are just short quests without much to do, especially Dorn's. I would have expected something with his patron but it was just random stuff. Only thing you could for Azothet was sticking a sword inside a tree. Yeah, she's super evil...Also, I don't see how erasing your names from a book will prevent them from hunting you, especially after you wasted the place. They should be after you because you did. And send those dragons after you, who are ridiculously powerful, the hardest fight in the game, if I'm not mistaken. And Rasaad's quest was just his story for blind revenge, nothing special either. The more I think about them, the more they appear bad to me.
So to sum up, I did not like the new content I played, which is why I am disappointed. The characters were okay, I even romanced Dorn and thought it was fine, but the quests/stories made no sense or had other issues. In future playthroughs, I guess I will try to avoid them so I don't have to bother with their quests. Hexxat could be an exception, IF I can come up with an interesting CHARNAME to take her. At this point, I also want to say that although I've been pretty negative, it's just my opinion, so don't feel offended for anything. Just tell me what you think, you're welcome to change my mind.
What I liked about the game most was the new interface, of course, and the higher resolution. Actually the best thing about it in my opinion. Anything looks better, and in the inventory screen you have all that information you didn't have in the vanilla. There are also some new portraits, higher stack sizes and, when rolling a character, you get to see how many points you have in total, just a small addition, but it really makes rolling a character a lot easier. And maybe some other stuff I don't recall right now. This is why I was just "partly" disappointed. These were the advantages why this game was worth the money I spent and is, well, a good game, in my opinion.
So, what do you think?
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Comments
But I think in the end it doesn't matter. Because the replayability value is even higher than the original. The EE has brought the game to life again, and when you love something (even so a game in this case) it is just unconditional.
So no disappointment from me
A couple things I disagree with though:
-As far as recruiting Hexxat is concerned, you don't *have* to accept her and you can just kill her (though unfortunately you don't get much from this). A good character would not accept Edwin's quest either, but that does not mean this is a problem. If anything, the Dorn dialogue choices were far more limiting and made you seem like an idiot. You could just kill Hexxat and get on with her game.
It is a very fair point that even a character who didn't care about Clara's murder at all would still be stupid to carry around a person who sees you as food, but that is a different issue. I personally don't like a lot about Hexxat either, but for different reasons.
-Rasaad's quest was a classic revenge story, but that does not mean it was bad. Was it less involving than say Korgan's quest? I thought it was fun and well done. It did not really have many inconsistencies or plot holes. Maybe you didn't find it interesting, which is a fair enough point.
I can say with certainty that this was a no-win situation for Beamdog, and that leaving them alone was probably the best thing to do for BG2:EE.
I quite liked the new movies, but after the hundredth playthrough I have a tendency to just click past the cutscenes, new or old.
I've played through Hexxat's, Neera's and Rasaad's quests in SoA. The writing is very poorly done. The dialogue options for CHARNAME during EE quests are completely discordant with the original game and often incomprehensible; the typical options for CHARNAME in EE-content dialogue are 1.) say something completely idiotic that has nothing to do with the question asked or situation presented 2.) drop an unfunny sarcastic line 3.) say something only a complete douche would say. I have repeatedly found myself in situations where not a single dialogue option is presented that I would consider saying. The writing is so bad that sometimes I'm not sure who I'm even talking to (i.e. Rasaad and the Two-fold enthusiast at the Amphitheater). If you look at the original SoA writing it actually had some subtlety and humor to it (e.g. "Yet another corpse in my wake nothing odd about that", "You there, Unwashed One, I'd have a word with you!", etc.) as opposed to the hyperbolic and idiotic "Preach on, brother!" nonsense you get in aforementioned Amphitheater section of Rasaad's quest.
I've been skipping the EE-content on all my latest playthroughs. The proverbial straw that broke the camel's back was when I was working through Neera's quest and lost 75k gold due to a wild surge in ultra-bland and poorly-designed wild forest.
The Black Pits add-on is "good for a goof". If you ignore the bad writing (newsflash: alliterations are annoying and unfunny) and the fact you progress from peon to demigod after 2 weeks of fighting, it is an interesting challenge mode and a good place you can play test various classes. Even so, time spent on this would have been better served elsewhere.
I would have preferred if the "enhancements" were simply interface improvements (more quick slots, smart swapping between two-handers and sword & board, etc, etc, etc.). The simple fact of the matter is that this design team doesn't possess the creativity or writing chops to add content to one of the greatest games ever made.
As for the OP, I would to a large extent agree. Hexxat is a dreadful character in my opinion, with nothing to redeem her (because, sadly, her SoA sidequests were essentially palette swaps of the same quest). Both she and Dorn are incredibly jarring characters, because although they are evil, they are aggressively incompatible with - between both of them - at least one quarter of the other NPCs in the game. This does not promise versatility in replayability if you plan to reuse them (not that there is much temptation to do that anyway). I agree with the promotion of evil characters, however there is a collossal difference in the scale and credibility of the evil acts enacted by both new characters that makes them utterly polarising. I still respect the work that Overhaul put in, and can never have hoped it would be as artful as the original, but there are certain aspects of it that are disappointing beyond defense. I believe Overhaul may do better if they are allowed to make their own game: at least then the comparison of quality won't be so immediate as it is between BG content and EE content.
It is a pity that so many 'innovative' thinkers don't see the beauty and opportunity in normalcy.
I liked the Wild Forest - a great example of a wild magic place. I wish there was a dead magic place as well...
I would have preferred a better option for Dorn - a more powerful Liege, like a Demon Prince or a Duke of Hell.
So, to Hexxat : why my Charname took her in? Well, my Ranger fell in BG:EE, and romanced Neera. Viconia, Dorna (female version of Dorn due to the Belt of Masc/Fem), Rasaad and Imoen. In BGII:EE, met the Hexxat in the CC, and was kind of intrigued by the promise of treasure (needed the gold anyway, to free Imoen and get revenge on Irenicus) so off we went.
Charname (fallen ranger)
Viconia
Dorn
Jaheira
Hexxat
Yoshi
After "rescuing" Hexxat, I guess I was just fascinated by Hexxat - a vampire...hmmm. Dangerous, to be sure...but. Interesting. She piqued my Charname's interest. Of course, Neera was not all to pleased at my sudden interest, but she got over it. Later, she proved to be very helpful (bye, bye, Yoshi, you useless lump!), and she never tried to betray me.
Rasaad I have a hard time this time around getting interested in - I don't know why.
In conclusion, I feel that I got my money's worth, so I am not disappointed. I am sure that the Devs would have LOVED to have done more with the game - I bet the contract is just...horrible.
I mean, the Community basically "fixed" everything for BGII SoA and ToB. Why all this was not implemented most probably has to do with contract limitations and...whatever.
I mean, even NWN2 used Community stuff (with permission, of course) to fix some problems - like the AI issues, for example.
As for a "rush job" - you need to remember that Beamdog was in a court battle for awhile - I bet that put a real cramp on "zots" - resources (time, money, etc). We all remember what hoops Bioware had to jumpt through due to the very same issues with NWN, and they were much bigger than Beamdog is then.
My personal opinion : wait and see how they continue to patch the game.
Honestly I shared a number of your disappointments. it also disappointed me a little that after all the hoohah of adding homosexual characters they made them both very evil and unrealistic characters although that's a very minor gripe I just think its a shame that is an amazing line right there
However, I feel like Dorn's character is genuinely worthwhile. The Blackguard kit is solid, as are his stats (his stats are wonderful, maybe too good) and he is much more intriguing to me than, say, Korgan. It's also nice to see NPCs with more than one quest. Korgan's quest resembles Dorn's quest from BG1 except that Dorn's BG1 quest had more encounters and better loot. I feel like Dorn isn't that unrealistic (despite the obvious non-human Paladin thing, which I appreciate), albeit a little bloodthirsty, and his quest even allows you to keep rep in check as an evil group. It is not really abnormal (in my eyes) to have a power-hungry Blackguard with a patron demon, given that Keldorn yells "By Torm I shall strike you down!" and "Torm take you!" as battle cries.
I actually very much like Hexxat from a gameplay perspective, and don't mind her from a roleplaying one thus far. Gameplay-wise, she is far and away the best thief option for an evil party without Charname being one her/himself. Single-class thief is usually not great, but she holds her own (her statline helps here) in combat and obviously as a utility thief with her quick leveling. I have not been one to play many evil characters in BG2 because the necessity of being a thief or taking Jan/Imoen felt limiting. Hexxat solves this handily.
Incidentally Kheldorn worshipping Torm is totally different from having a patron demon. It's a bit like the difference between being a Catholic or a Cathar in the middle ages. Sure you're technically within the same pantheon, but one's a lot more socially acceptable!
As for Hexxat's race, she's a human. She can dual class, so she must be. I also think it's really silly for it to say Vampire.
"The dialogue options for CHARNAME during EE quests are completely discordant with the original game and often incomprehensible; the typical options for CHARNAME in EE-content dialogue are 1.) say something completely idiotic that has nothing to do with the question asked or situation presented 2.) drop an unfunny sarcastic line 3.) say something only a complete douche would say. I have repeatedly found myself in situations where not a single dialogue option is presented that I would consider saying. The writing is so bad that sometimes I'm not sure who I'm even talking to (i.e. Rasaad and the Two-fold enthusiast at the Amphitheater). If you look at the original SoA writing it actually had some subtlety and humor to it (e.g. "Yet another corpse in my wake nothing odd about that", "You there, Unwashed One, I'd have a word with you!", etc.) as opposed to the hyperbolic and idiotic "Preach on, brother!" nonsense you get in aforementioned Amphitheater section of Rasaad's quest."
THIS. The second time I played, I just chose to hack and slash my way through the Amphitheater/Temple part to avoid having to say much at all. Speaking of lack of subtlety,
That said, I really liked Rasaad's quest in ToB. A few of the dialogue options there were pretty good, too.
The only other new character I've tried yet is Neera, and I rather enjoyed her quests.
Edit: As for the old movies, the only one I really, really miss is the wyvern flying off with a cow.
I think it would be really silly for it to say Human when she is a Vampire, personally.
I think it would be really silly for it to say Human when she is a Vampire, personally.
But Vampire isn't a race. It's (if anything) a status effect. It'd be like if CHARNAME said "Godchild". Like with Liches, you're still a human/elf/whatever - hence why different races even have different names for their type of lich.
Your reasoning is a bit off. If she was still "human" (like all Vampires, Liches, etc) then Rangers would get their bonuses from racial type only against whatever Race the Undead were, instead of against Undead itself.
As for a Bhaalspawn, they are still whatever Race they were born into - only a part of their soul (if I am understanding the whole Bhaalspawn thing correctly) is from Bhaal.
And it was more to address the OP's point.
Its counted as a race in the game for the vampires you come across. Its a distinction that's generally not particularly important but rangers can use it as a racial enemy. I don't really see why it wouldn't be used in the case of Hexxat. Presumably the vampires you come across were also once something other than a vampire, but they are still racially considered vampires.
I do wish that his patron wasn't prone to being slain by some mid-level adventurers.
I was disappointed by BG2 EE in that there are several places in the original BG2 that look like they were left incomplete when the developers were creating the original game. I've read on other sites before that these were left like that because the developers needed to make a deadline, so they didn't finish all their content. I had assumed that the EE would have finished at least some of these obviously unfinished sections, but so far everyone of them that I've come across is the same as it is in the original BG2.
Some of these unfinished areas, (not all of them by any stretch of the imagination, just what I can remember off the top of my head), are:
1.) The unfinished staircase in the beholder lair in the Underdark. There is also a similar staircase somewhere in Athkatla, but I forget where.
2.) The unfinished/non functional doorways to nothing in several buildings in Athkatla
3.) The Drow from House DeVir in Ust Natha who mention something about rescuing them, but whom Viconia never says anything about and whom you have no option to rescue, even though you can rescue some random human slaves.
There are also some other issues with dialogue in terms of context that I think could be improved, such as:
4.) Viconia commenting about the "collected rivvin" while in Ust Natha
5.) Aerie commenting on being able to see the sky while in the Underdark
Some new errors in dialogue context that didn't exist in the old game are:
6.) Hexxat asking me about why I want to rescue Imoen while Imoen is standing right beside her in the Underdark.
7.) Imoen asking Hexxat if she should worry about not having her soul, and Hexxat telling her what she wants to hear just to cheer her up (which would make perfect sense in Spellhold or the Underdark) while in Suldanesselar after getting her soul back from Bodhi.
To Hexxat's race: I didn't mean to bring this out as a major issue, it was just a minor disturbance along with the others. I recall vampire being a race for technical reasons (a ranger's racial enemy), but it's still odd in my opinion to call it an actual race. You're still a human, elf, dwarf, whatever who happens to be a vampire.
One last note on dialogues: In my current BGEE replay I'm recognizing a lot of dialogue choices where no choice is what I would like to say (original content). The question I want to raise is if the gap between the dialogues in the original content and the respective EE content is really that large.
1) The right thing to say, being interested in the story/what's going on. Sometimes there are two of these.
2) The sarcastic remark. Not always present, but sticks out like a sore thumb.
3) The *wrong* thing to say. So obviously wrong that it seems odd you haven't just Reform Party'd them out by now. This may be replaced by the sarcastic remark as well.
My best example from BG1 is at the end of Neera's first "get to know me" talk, and one of the responses is like "BY THE GODS, HER STORY IS FINISHED. I HAVE CRIED MYSELF DEHYDRATED." Obviously a way to kill the conversation and the friendship.
In terms of the third option, I don't have an example in mind.
AFAIK, however, the natural abilities of whatever is afflicted by Vampirism (or becomes a Lich) are lost. So it is more like changing Race than anything else.