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Is Blackguard overpowered ?

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  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    edited February 2014
    Guys. This isn't turd -- I mean third edition. Kind of an unfair comparison don't ya think? EVERYTHING is more powerful in third edition.
    booinyoureyesjackjackCrevsDaakDrakeICN
  • TarlugnTarlugn Member Posts: 203
    edited February 2014
    Nah, it isn´t, because the new kits have their origin in Neverwinter Nights, where they were prestige classes, only selectable at level up, and if the character in question met the requirements, which in turn weren´t attainable before leves 10+, if I remember correctly...
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    Tarlugn said:

    Nah, it isn´t, because the new kits have their origin in Neverwinter Nights, where they were prestige classes, only selectable at level up, and if the character in question met the requirements, which in turn weren´t attainable before leves 10+, if I remember correctly...

    You didn't address my primary concern:
    "EVERYTHING is more powerful in third edition."
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    I once made a Bard 5/Fighter 3/Barbarian 2 in NWN (3rd Ed.). I felt very dirty about it, and it took a long time for me to play again. I agree 3rd can be absurdly OP.
    QuartzCrevsDaak
  • TarlugnTarlugn Member Posts: 203
    Versatile, yes, but powerful, er, not. Though it might be that the character I was trying to recreate, an elven fighter/mage from SoA+ToB, and the end result in some fighter/sorcerer/red dragon disciple in NWN+SoU+HotU, wasn´t as elegant as the demi-human multiclass by the 2nd edition rules.
  • ZaknafeinBaenreZaknafeinBaenre Member Posts: 348
    Someone mentioned Carsomyr as being an advantage for paladins, but Blackguards get an evil version of Carsomyr in Watchers Keep (+5 2-handed sword usable only by blackguards with magic resistance and other similar bonuses to Carsomyr).

    That being said, My dragon disciple felt much more powerful than my blackguard, especially in the later rounds. Plus, there's a major drawback to being a blackguard: you're really, REALLY evil. Everybody hates you if you roleplay it right, and you'll have a difficult time getting things done. For instance, if you are role-playing a blackguard, you and Dorn will have to go to the Radiant Heart headquarters and slaughter the entire pack of paladins. It's just gotta be done.

  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    edited February 2014
    But said sword does not Dispel on hit, which is Carsomyr's main selling point, as far as I'm aware.
    Someone said that Paladin and its kits in general were somewhat OP. I agree with that sentiment, and don't find that Blackguards deviate from the norm in that regard. They are one in a group of somewhat OP choices, and none of them bother me.
    In PnP, you'd have to roll ability scores good enough to qualify for them, but that's never been how it works in-game.
    Edit: my iPhone autocorrects its to it's and that drives me Crazy!
    Post edited by jackjack on
    Illustair
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,305
    edited February 2014
    jackjack said:

    But said sword does not Dispel on hit, which is Carsomyr's main selling point, as far as I'm aware.

    Its a 50% chance to dispel on hit. But with multiple attacks per round hitting shouldn't be too difficult. It doesn't provide any kind of castable dispel magic though.
    jackjackCrevsDaak
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    It's fine. I certainly find it harder to play than Berserker.
  • ZaknafeinBaenreZaknafeinBaenre Member Posts: 348
    I thought Berzerker was so easy. Army of illithid? no problem, click rage and hack away
    SchneidendQuartzCrevsDaak
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    edited February 2014
    Tarlugn said:

    Without backstab (or "death attack" as it was in NWN 1, rising in the same manner as backstab multiplier) the blackguard isn´t so overpowering as an idea as it was as a prestige class with some restrictions in NWN 1. If only the aura was always active, then it might be too powerful, but as it is, it is nicely balanced.

    It isn't really being compared to the NWN blackguards, only to other classes and kits in BG2. The OP basically said that. In that case its definitely more powerful than the vast majority of kits/classes, and people can definitely argue that its overpowered. Its not equal to many prestige classes in NWN2, but no kit/class in BG makes for a good comparison to the other (very different) game.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited February 2014

    I thought Berzerker was so easy. Army of illithid? no problem, click rage and hack away

    I'm playing BG2 with Dorn and Korgan at the moment, and the Berzerker's kill stats mop the floor with the Blackguard's. Immunity to almost everything, 5 star weapon specialization, and 2 more levels beats everything the Blackguard has.

    Post edited by Fardragon on
    ArizaelSchneidendCrevsDaak
  • TarlugnTarlugn Member Posts: 203


    It isn't really being compared to the NWN blackguards, only to other classes and kits in BG2. The OP basically said that. In that case its definitely more powerful than the vast majority of kits/classes, and people can definitely argue that its overpowered. Its not equal to many prestige classes in NWN2, but no kit/class in BG makes for a good comparison to the other (very different) game.

    I referred to NWN 1 HotU only because I´ve seen blackguard last there. But which is more powerful, when comparing blackguard special abilities to other classes likely to get in melee contact - ability to scare enemies, or to make character immune to fear? Absorb health reminds me of inflict spells, with an added bonus to heal the character - but otherwise healing takes either Laying of Hands by some palading kits, or healing spells by cleric or druid. Poison Weapon was a skill of an assasin previosly - I presume blackguard can hit things a bit better due to exceptional strength and better thaco. With these three skills in mind, what other class can do the same? A mage/cleric, perhaps, by casting either Spook, Horror, or Symbol:Fear for a fear effect, then casting Chant - I don´t remember if any other spell lowers enemy thaco and damage - then, mage/cleric could cast a serie of Inflict Wounds/Cure X Wounds, but that would be impractical... and poisoning effect by casting Poison, though I´ve got no knowledge whether it works or not.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    I've never seen a Blackguard fear anything. It only works on mobs too low level to bother using special abilities on.
    GreenWarlock
  • DagothDagoth Member Posts: 3
    I have yet to play a Blackguard. Recently I was torn between an Assassin and a Shadow Dancer... but I wanted to also be a mage-- but Dual Class is boring and sometimes too much power gaming to really appreciate the role playing.. But after reading this -- I can get the spell casting, the poison and a fighter to boot... without any of that pain.
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,425
    Dagoth said:

    I have yet to play a Blackguard. Recently I was torn between an Assassin and a Shadow Dancer... but I wanted to also be a mage-- but Dual Class is boring and sometimes too much power gaming to really appreciate the role playing.. But after reading this -- I can get the spell casting, the poison and a fighter to boot... without any of that pain.

    The poison has been significantly nerfed since this discussion happened, so while I think it's still on par with, say, the Cavalier, it's hardly an angel of death anymore.
  • AstafasAstafas Member Posts: 448
    It's really strong in BG1 but starts to lag behind some other warrior classes in SOA. The poison has been nerfed down as well.
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 676
    A sort of equal opportunity would have been to place Ir'revrykal in SoA, instead of Watchers keep. Since it's already inferior to Carsomyr anyway.

    I liked the poison nerf as well.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,299
    They are, but rp-wise both paladins and blackguards are very special beings, therefore rarer than other classes. With hard physical training any young man could become a fighter, but it takes a seriously faithful or wicked being to bear the conduct of a paladin or blackguard .
    tbone1
  • GenderNihilismGirdleGenderNihilismGirdle Member Posts: 1,353
    I'm just voting this because my husband Dorn needs more power.
    CrevsDaak
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,985
    One thing I keep forgetting is that you cannot compare level to level; you need to compare XP to XP. So when a Paladin just reaches level 2, a thief is nearly at level 3. There are a few places where this gets out of whack, like mages from levels 6-9, but it's a pretty good rule of thumb for comparing classes and kits.
  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited February 2017
    It is actually hilarious discussing class(or kit) balance of 2nd edition.

    That's all i'm gonna say.

    It just doesn't exist.

    Actually, make that all editions, maaaaaybe less for 4rth.
  • ArizaelArizael Member Posts: 263
    The thread has actually awoken from it's slumber.

    I probably should have stressed the topic better - the aim was not to nerf blackguard, compare it to different editions or create some overall class balance. I simply wanted to know peoples opinion if the blackguard fits the Infinity engine kit design - that is some advantage over base class at the cost of some disadvantage over said base class. I believed that in case of blackguard the advantages are pretty good, while disadvantages are way too low. The topic was about blackguard and not about say berserker, because the blackguard was the new kid in the house.
    ThacoBell
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @Arizael Cleric kits have no disadvantages
    CrevsDaak
  • BigfishBigfish Member Posts: 367
    Fardragon said:

    Nothing in BG, or indeed 2nd edition, is balanced. That's it's charm. Modern games have all the soul sucked out of them with an obsession with balance.

    So much this. There is no competitive scene in Baldur's Gate. It's doesn't matter if something is overpowered or underpowered because the only thing that matters is how you choose to play. I really don't care how Blackguards perform because their advantages mean very little to people looking to add challenge or RP by playing this class or that.
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,425
    It's almost impossible to balance gain and loss in a kit, simply because of min-maxing. The Archer becomes rather miserable in melee, but who cares, when you can haste yourself and kite everybody into the grave? On the other hand, the Beastmaster loses most useful weapons and gets rather weak summons in return, so there's not much maxing to do. Balance and kits don't go together too well, really. I suppose Thief is probably the best-balanced, since I can see advantages to taking any of the kits or even the pure class that are all distinct from each other, with nothing being objectively better than the others.
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 992
    edited February 2017

    . I suppose Thief is probably the best-balanced, since I can see advantages to taking any of the kits or even the pure class that are all distinct from each other, with nothing being objectively better than the others.

    I almost agree with you. While I agree Thief is arguably the most balance archetype of all, the Bounty Hunter has huge benefits and little drawbacks. Awesome traps for 5 skill points less per level. C'mon.

    But, for the general idea, yes you right : balance is not really possible, nor really too important in my opinion.
    CrevsDaak
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,425
    Arctodus said:


    I almost agree with you. While I agree Thief is arguably the most balance archetype of all, the Bounty Hunter has huge benefits and little drawbacks. Awesome traps for 5 skill points less per level. C'mon.

    There are two counter-considerations here. The first is that five points per level makes a big difference at low levels, when Hide in Shadows is a massive point sink to use reliably, and even mid-levels, when you'll want to start pumping Detect Illusions, so there's a sacrifice in general utility for Bounty Hunter that at least makes vanilla Thief still worth considering, which I can't really say for vanilla Cleric or Paladin or even Fighter, really. This is especially pronounced for thieves precisely because they're the utility class, so sacrificing anything is something significant in the end. The second being that at really high levels, the BH traps are kind of superceded by Spike and Time Traps anyways, so it doesn't stand out as much anymore. Also, it feels like they keep changing what the bonus traps do when they patch the game, so there's that additional uncertainty.
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 992
    edited February 2017
    It does make a difference at lower levels, but, at the same time, thieves level up so fast that it usually becomes a moot point rather fast. If you also count in the fact that you can use thieves potions to make up for the small difference, then there is little reason to go for pure thief, even at lower level.

    When you get in HLA territory, it's absolutely true that Bounty Hunter's speciality is not nearly as significant. While it can be useful to Maze a few enemy to make a fight more managable, that's nothing a good time-stop trap cannot do. So yeah, at higher level, there's little reason to go for Bounty Hunter and lose those skill points. But, before you get in HLA territory, which take quite some time, Bounty Hunter seems to be the better choice.

    That's actually one of the reason I only play with Rogue Rebalance nowadays. Rogue's HLA are a lot more balanced with it : no more silly time-stop trap. Bounty Hunters specific traps, while different from their vanilla counterpart, stay relevant in the end game.

    Anyway, I don't want to highjack the thread so yeah, balance with kits, not possible.
    CrevsDaak
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 676
    edited February 2017
    Bigfish said:

    Fardragon said:

    Nothing in BG, or indeed 2nd edition, is balanced. That's it's charm. Modern games have all the soul sucked out of them with an obsession with balance.

    So much this. There is no competitive scene in Baldur's Gate. It's doesn't matter if something is overpowered or underpowered because the only thing that matters is how you choose to play. I really don't care how Blackguards perform because their advantages mean very little to people looking to add challenge or RP by playing this class or that.
    This is actually one thing that could be improved IMO, since it misses out on all the rp fluff the paladin gets. The stronghold, falling below certain reputation and no consequences in the hell trials.

    Not even in Dorns quest is there anything specific for Blackguards, not even an acknowledgement from him. It's much the same with Neera and Rasaads quests though, to be fair.
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