Is Blackguard overpowered ?
Arizael
Member Posts: 263
I am currently tinkering with NI, trying to create some custom kits which would spice up my next playtrough. I am currently in the middle of balance phase, so I've carefuly read trough all kits so I can compare to them. The Blackguard struck me as much more generous than other kits in bonus/malus ratio - especially when compared to other paladins. I would like to ask for public opinion about this issue.
Summary of blackguard kit:
+Lay on Hands upgraded to Absorb Health
+ Immunities to fear and level drain
+ Can control undead, like evil clerics
+ Powerful Poison weapon ability, with more uses/day per 5 levels
+ Powerful Aura of Despair ability, with good level progression
+ Can choose from wider range of alignments (CE, NE, LE - Paladin can be only LG)
- No detect Evil
- No protection from Evil (but may cast it as spell eventually).
Note: I am aware that this is singleplayer game and by no means needs super-duper balanced classes. However I still think that there is a line, which if crossed means less fun in the end.
Summary of blackguard kit:
+Lay on Hands upgraded to Absorb Health
+ Immunities to fear and level drain
+ Can control undead, like evil clerics
+ Powerful Poison weapon ability, with more uses/day per 5 levels
+ Powerful Aura of Despair ability, with good level progression
+ Can choose from wider range of alignments (CE, NE, LE - Paladin can be only LG)
- No detect Evil
- No protection from Evil (but may cast it as spell eventually).
Note: I am aware that this is singleplayer game and by no means needs super-duper balanced classes. However I still think that there is a line, which if crossed means less fun in the end.
- Is Blackguard overpowered ?150 votes
- Blackguard is indeed overpowered37.33%
- Blackguard is just as balanced as other kits.30.00%
- Blackguard is actualy underpowered6.00%
- I don't care.26.67%
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Comments
For the rest they are very close to cavalier or undead hunter with spell casting, undead turning and good immunities. The blackguard has aura of despair but he paladins can use carsomyr (much greater asset IMO)
Poison weapon however is insanely powerful and should clearly be toned down :
- probably the highest damage output in the game due to stacking
- bypasses magical protections like stoneskin and mirror image
- disrupt all spell casting
Therefore, it is currently both the ultimate mage killer AND the ultimate standard mob killer.
This should be changed :
- option 1: it should not stack. The damage would be pitiful but it would still be very strong against casters
- option 2 : it should not bypass magical protections. That would make it a lot less useful against mages but still a very damaging options against everything else
When making kits, you should just make sure they are balanced in themselves - don't give a kit only upsides and no or laughable/non-issue drawbacks. For example, cleric "kits" - the alignment restriction is no drawback at all. I highly doubt anyone in the history of ever wanted... let's say Stormshield and being neutral aligned so badly that they ragequit over the inability to have the ability as neutral cleric.
If you add a powerful ability, balance it with something that hurts at least a bit. Don't use alignment restrictions or stats that aren't relevant for the class (-2 charisma for a fighter class, -2 strength for mages) as "downsides" and you should be fine.
But we are talking about a game where a character like Garrick can become somewhat OP: it is just a bit easier to become OP with a blackguard.
Obviously, some crazy class which allowed you to kill every enemy instantly wouldnt be fun, as such, my only parameter is "fun" or "no-fun"
Forget the 19 str and good weapon (most warrior charnames get that as well anyway with the tome). Focus on kit itself.
Consideringg the kit construction, isn't the blackguard kit exactly a collection of big pluses only minor downside (prot. and det. evil)?
U confused me with the alingment restriction. U first say it is downside and than continue with cleric comment, where it suddenly isn't downside at all :P. I personaly think it's a minor downsided indeed (rep. and stuff) but nothing what can compare to new or upgraded ability. Besides he can pick to be chaotic or neutral.
The real downgrade on Blackguards is that they don't get lightsabers :P
The cleric example:
Blackguard: does not get all benefits of all other paladins
Any "kitted" cleric: gets all benefits of all other clerics, plus special abilities depending on alignment
It's the most overpowered kit by a very, very large margin. Based on lots of things, mainly poison weapon
But poison weapon isnt as strong in bg2 and compared to someone who knows how to push the inquisitor its decent.
The Cavalier is not bad either, the second game is riddled with fire damage and easily getting 100+ resistance helps alot.
In PnP, I think the Dispel is only x1.5 times as strong. Not x2.
The Blackguard is perfectly balanced, it gives you Paladin stuff but you can be any evil. Poison Weapon that works better for him than an Assassin because of better THAC0 and great defenses. Absorb Health is fun too.
And I was looking FOREVER for a Blackguard kit in modding sites. Most were crappy Fighter ones and one was just an evil Inquisitor *rolls eyes*.
Love the Blackguard, by far my favorite kit. Not for it's power but because it's implemented correctly keeping it's flavor as a true Antipaladin class.
Same goes with insect swarm, anyway, so it is not overpowered for BG2. For BG1, it is very easy to disrupt with a good archer, so again not overpowered.
About stacking... Yes, stacking shouldnt happen but I am all for things that kill trash faster
Yeah, you're right. Balance doesn't belong in a single player RPG.
Let's make a class called GOD (that's all capitals) that rolls d100 for HP, has access to all Mage, Druid and Cleric spells, 500 on all Thief skills and has all HLAs of every class at level 1.
Also they should totally put a +850 dagger that does 1200 base damage in the first dungeon. Who cares about balance?
Balanced means that it's not overshadowing and making obsolete the other options by being too good.
Every class/kit etc should be worthwhile, because if it isn't people wouldn't care to pick it up.
Look at Wizard Slayer. Everyone is calling it a garbage kit. Because what it tries to do, the Inquisitor and Monk do it better.
Balance IS important. It's called good game design. Anyone can design a class that is the best one ever.
But only people that know about balance can make a class etc that is neither too good or too bad.
Here, the thing that prevent blackguard from completely overshadowing the other fighter classes is the fact that it is an evil class IMO.
Apart from that, poison weapon is so OP (mage killing is almost as easy as with an inquisitor and everything else drops like flies) that there is no reason to play other fighter types.
Human only. Evil only. And at too high reputation you become fallen so you suffer through higher prices, plus no Carsormyr. One of the best weapons in the game.
Now a review of the class:
-Lay on Hands is better because it works on anyone, it's instant, you don't have to find and attack an enemy.
-With Command Undead, you still need to attack them afterwards but I'm not sure if they break free of it, then.
-Immunity to Fear and Level Drain. One from Cavalier and one from Undead Hunter, I believe. Both good.
-The Poison Weapon is quite good indeed but a Inquisitor destroys the protections of mages, anyway.
-Detect Evil is fun to use at the first playthrough so you know who's evil or not. That's it.
-The multiple uses of Protection from Evil are very very good to have in BG1 early on.
-Aura of Despair is a debuff right? -2 Saves and AC? Don't remember. Good ability.
The Blackguard might have an edge over the other Paladins except Inquisitor, with the Poison Weapon ability true but it's a nice bonus that only one other class has and you pay it with what I described above.
Evil was always a bit stronger in the games. To counter the fact that it was the harder path.
You are rewarded with great abilities by taking the challenging path.
If you're too good you will fall and if you're too evil you'll be despised and hunted.
I think it's a fair trade.
one thing I genuinely dislike though is his poison weapon. considering its one of the main plus points of the assassin who has to suffer quite significant penalties to obtain it the blackguard gets it for little to no trade-off
id dump his version of it or change it for something else then the class would be pretty decently done imo
@element I'd argue the Assassin's disadvantages were more trade-offs for the 7x backstab. There's just more synergy of the ability with the Blackguard since it's attacking at much better thac0 with more APR. Also consider that the ability was never designed for BG1 where it is more powerful.
The paladin's OPness has always been counterbalanced by the fact that a player is restricted to a particular race and alignment. The same is also true of the Blackguard.
Despite the fact that I consider the Blackguard to be so powerful, I will seldom, if ever play as one, because I don't typically play as evil chars. That just goes to show how much of an offset its race/alignment restrictions are.
I definitively do NOT want to see the devs nerf another class that they've created - especially after so much time has passed.
Edit: After reading the posts, apparently a lot of people already said that they agree with this