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Is Killing Drizzt Do'Urden as a Ranger "Evil?"

ArndasArndas Member Posts: 42
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
I suppose the main question comes down to asking whether or not a Ranger killing a Ranger is wrong, but I always looked for justification for killing Drizzt. Obviously, he carries very strong weapons and armour, however I do not believe that would be a realistic reason for a Chaotic Good Ranger and friends to kill Drizzt.

Indiscriminate killing goes against the Ranger honor system (AD&D ED 1 rules), although what is the chance that the protagonist would know Drizzt was not an evil Drow?

If anyone has any ideas, I would love to hear them!
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Comments

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    How much int and wis your character have? A low int and wis character has a good excuse to mistake drizzt for an evil representative of drow race. Some roleplays also give the same excuse.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Simple solution: Admit you just want the gear, kill him, don't roleplay encounter and pretend it never happened.
  • ArndasArndas Member Posts: 42
    edited February 2014
    kamuizin said:

    How much int and wis your character have? A low int and wis character has a good excuse to mistake drizzt for an evil representative of drow race. Some roleplays also give the same excuse.

    Frankly it depends on what I role each time. If I play with a Ranger, then I like to have 15 or so Wisdom and 10-12 Intelligence. A person with above average wisdom and average intelligence would likely not attack Drizzt if he knew who Drizzt was. The way you put it, you are right, it would not make sense for my character to initiate a fight.

    edit: -Thanks for the feedback!
  • ArndasArndas Member Posts: 42
    edited February 2014
    Blackraven said:

    One time my cleric/ranger murdered the drow ranger after being "arsked" by the latter to clear out a bunch of gnolls. As my ranger proceeded to get the job done, Drizzt himself retreated, and curiously the gnolls didn't attack Drizzt either. My cleric/ranger decided that he must have been tricked by a phony Drizzt, probably a mage in disguise who loosed his pet gnolls upon him. It was only after the "evil wizard" died that my ranger was able to get Drizzt's weapons and armor identified. (This was a BGT run, I probably had issues with one of the mods.)
    Otherwise I see no legit ways for a ranger to kill Drizzt. Maybe self-defense? You could roleplay that one of your companions tries to pickpocket Drizzt of his/her own accord. For example Chaotic Neutral Garrick or Safana. Drizzt will not only kill the wannabe thief but turn all aggro on your ranger and the other companions as well, completely ignoring your ranger's pleas of innocence... I say defend yourselves.

    I actually like the idea of having an unwise Thief make a petty attempt to steal from Drizzt Do'Urden. Perhaps a greedy, neutral or evil character might have "loose hands," and try to take a few gold or say...a powerful sword. I would just hope that the Drow does not kill the whole party...just the feeble Thief.

    edit: -Thanks for the feedback!
  • ArndasArndas Member Posts: 42
    edited February 2014
    CrevsDaak said:

    Yes, sorry but it's evil.
    Unless you are roleplaying Lawful Stupid :)
    You can go Invisible and wait for the gnolls to kill him, this is going to get fixed in 1.3 anyway.

    This is true, however I would never play a Lawful character (unless it was a class requirement). Despite my dislike for playing a Lawful character, I occasionally have a Lawful party member who might not take kindly to killing a random stranger in the woods.

    edit: -Thanks for the feedback!
  • ArndasArndas Member Posts: 42
    KidCarnival said:

    Simple solution: Admit you just want the gear, kill him, don't roleplay encounter and pretend it never happened.

    I often find myself taking this path, regardless of the class I choose. Either I keep it for myself, or I give it to a party member (if I can't use the equipment).

    -Thanks for the feedback!
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    Killing Drizzt has little to do with being Chaotic or Lawful or a Ranger or not.

    You are killing a renowned hero of Faerun, which is an evil act no matter what class you are or what your character's attitude to Order vs Anarchy.

    That said in my first playthough, I used KidCarnival's solution, or a variant of it.

    "Oh sorry I had no idea it was Drizzt! I thought it was just an evil Drow! I feel so terrible!"
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    How about an unwise mage in the party.

    He's a drow, has high MR, surrounded by Gnolls. A quick fireball will take out all the Gnolls and leave the drow unsinged. I cast fireball.

    Drizzt argos because he thinks you are attacking him

    Gotta defend yourself now and you weren't the aggressor. It was just a misunderstanding.
  • SharShar Member Posts: 158
    Invisibility potion and few traps? He fell on my knife etc? 33 times...
  • KarashiKarashi Member Posts: 38
    I'll admit it would be tough to rp this as a ranger. But i could see it happening on a chaotic ranger thats having a bit of a bad day. When you first get to drizzt, he initiates a convo that demands that you go out of your way to help him slay these gnolls attacking him. As long as your not a stupid ranger you would plainly see that he would not need your help in the slightest and because of your foul mood, simply refuse to help him. As soon as you do he will threaten you to help him or else! at this point its not about getting gear or killing someone famous, its just standing up to a bully! Just say no to him again and he will attack you first and from there it is all just legit self defense. Course nobody that hears the rumors of his death will believe that you were just an innocent bystander who was forced to fight for his life and you will take the huge rep hit. But hey, you will know you just defended yourself, and thats all that will matter every night when you go to sleep after polishing your fancy new scimitars.
  • ArizaelArizael Member Posts: 263
    Provoking fight with Drizzt is under the circumstances presented by the game absolutely evil. I believe even chaotic neutral wouldn't do that.

    Winning the fight with Drizzt is under the circumstances presented by the game absolutely cheesy.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    edited February 2014
    Here's another way to look at it.

    If the OP's ranger is Chaotic good, they aren't going to strike unless they know (not Believe, but actually confirm) that this Drow is evil. Racial prejudices do not have a 'get out of jail free' card when it comes to alignment. Even if said ranger had never heard of Drizzt (highly unlikely given the time), the fact of the matter is, to strike based on an assumption (or racial prejudice) instead of facts or confirmations is outright EVIL.

    And even IF it is an EVIL drow that they are facing, better to prove it before striking. And better still to take out the Gnolls, capture the Drow and bring them to a court for justice. Because striking without cause is the hallmark of EVIL, not good.
  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    its pretty evil but you can justify it with a good character if it suits your rp id never do it though seems dumb
  • ArizaelArizael Member Posts: 263
    The entire point anyway is to kill a good character just to obtain his powerful loot. If you want to do that, you better stop preteding being good and roll something evil.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    @the_spyder‌

    Hehe again we seem to differ on the details of an alignment issue, though we generally seem to share a similar framework for looking at issues. Whereas I am extremely strict on theft in comparison to you. I am less so about racism in a Fantasy context.

    The views you have described are very modern, liberal and enlightened. I would say that in a Medieval setting like the FR, particularly with races that are explicitly evil, being a racist against evil races does not make you evil.

    Frankly given that there are many thousands of Drow, and only one is known to be Good, then common sense would be to attack on sight unless given a good reason not to.

    I wonder if people are overly sympathetic to Drow due to Viconia's charms and the metagame knowledge that she can be redeemed... I mean would everyone we so concerned about 'racism' if this character was less human-like and was ... a Good Mindflayer or Beholder?
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @Heindrich - I respect your opinions on this topic, and in fact most of what you post.

    In this instance, here is the way I see it. People who bow to racial prejudice are evil. They merely think that they aren't evil and say "Well the 'evil' that i do is justified because I am prejudiced against them due to their race (or whatever prejudice they hold)." it isn't "Less Evil" because they are prejudiced, it's merely an excuse that allows them to continue to think that they are good.

    all in my humble opinion, and in no way intended to offend anyone.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    edited February 2014
    @Heindrich I really don't get why a single individual has to be rated/judged due it's group's traits.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @‌Kamigoroshi - bigotry is just like racism in that it doesn't get a pass on alignment. Even if you are "Otherwise good", being a Bigot or a racist is the taint and makes you either less good or not good at all.

    Nor is it a 'Trait' of a given class. You get to play any class any way you want. That's role playing. Not so good Authors may write certain stereotypes that way in books, but saying 'All rangers tend to be bigots' is a form of bigotry.

    And the Gnolls attack first in all cases in BG save one. If they attack first, it is very easy to defend a good alignment.

    Plus, the truth of the matter is that Charname and their group are all mass murderers dozens of times over. If truth be told, they should all end up as Chaotic Evil, considering all of the deaths on their hands. It's the nature of video games to be such.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    What about Ajantis then? He's clearly prejudiced against all evil creatures, even if they don't do anything evil. Best example, Kagain; he doesn't even have banters lines that would offend a paladin. Ajantis is blindly hating him anyway.
    For contrast, see Keldorn (and redeemed Anomen) and Korgan - no-one attacks the other and there is even a certain level of respect for the skills of the other.

    Ajantis is prejudiced and he is lawful good, so apparently, he got a "pass".
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Wait, what?

    According to websters dictionary, 'prejudice' means - "an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason." It goes on to say "unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group."

    Ajantis has a reason to hate evil creatures, i.e they are EVIL. This is based on knowledge of evil people doing evil things. And it isn't a blind label against a group or race that may encompass non-evil beings (regardless of if you know about them or not). Therefore it isn't prejudice.

    True racial prejudice or bigotry is when you hate all Xvarts because you believe (right or wrong) that all Xvarts are lesser, evil (usually, though not always), creatures regardless of the facts of the matter.

    Ajantis doesn't hate Kagain because he is a Dwarf. He hates him because he is evil. and living in close quarters with someone for months on end, you get more of a sense of them than is represented in a few off hand comments.
  • iAmGoatBoyiAmGoatBoy Member Posts: 72
    Or perhaps your good character is simply convinced that their own mission is so utterly vital to the greater good that they MUST have Drizz't's gear at all costs in order to succeed. Granted, it's slightly spurious given that at your current stage of the game, your character probably doesn't know about their own significance as a Bhaalspawn, but if you RP a good character with a somewhat psychopathic commitment to their goals, you can justify more or less any act of violent powergaming.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited February 2014
    deltago said:

    How about an unwise mage in the party.

    He's a drow, has high MR, surrounded by Gnolls. A quick fireball will take out all the Gnolls and leave the drow unsinged. I cast fireball.

    Drizzt argos because he thinks you are attacking him

    Gotta defend yourself now and you weren't the aggressor. It was just a misunderstanding.

    I can see the justification for having to fight him but I'm not seeing the justification for having to kill him. You have the spell Fireball, so you clearly are a fairly advanced group. Why not just accept that it was your fault, distract him with some summons and leave?
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Coutelier said:

    The comic book justification; whenever heroes from different series meet, they have to throw down at some point. It's the law.

    Except rarely do they Kill each other.

    Also, remember. Just because you are not smart enough or wise enough to know what you are doing is evil, doesn't mean it is any less evil. It just makes you an evil fool.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    the_spyder said:

    Wait, what?

    According to websters dictionary, 'prejudice' means - "an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason." It goes on to say "unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group."

    Ajantis has a reason to hate evil creatures, i.e they are EVIL. This is based on knowledge of evil people doing evil things. And it isn't a blind label against a group or race that may encompass non-evil beings (regardless of if you know about them or not). Therefore it isn't prejudice.

    True racial prejudice or bigotry is when you hate all Xvarts because you believe (right or wrong) that all Xvarts are lesser, evil (usually, though not always), creatures regardless of the facts of the matter.

    Ajantis doesn't hate Kagain because he is a Dwarf. He hates him because he is evil. and living in close quarters with someone for months on end, you get more of a sense of them than is represented in a few off hand comments.

    And just showing up on a paladin radar as "evil" is reason enough to attack? Kagain doesn't do anything evil. He runs a lawful business. People in Beregost apparently hire him and have nothing against him offering his services there. He's not bothering anyone. The banter lines aren't aggressive. They are laid back. Kagain doesn't even react to insults in kind; he replies with "yeah whatever, shut up". His "evil" nature exists only on paper/know alignment. No-one would guess from his personality or behavior; he comes across as lawful, maybe true, neutral.

    So, it is prejudice to attack based on nothing but "shows up when casting Detect Evil". Viconia does, too, but if you get to know her, she's not that evil anymore (and can be redeemed to prove the point). Unless someone actually does something evil, the paladin can't know if that person is on a way to redemption or simply not a problem for anyone even if they are "evil", like Kagain.
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