"I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints - the sinners are much more fun!"
Dwarves are SO much more fun than the Elves. All that lifespan (elves) and no JOY to it.
That said, I more usually play an elf, because +1 DEX helps survivability AND fighting, while +1 CON only helps the latter (I usually go the Ranger route). As pure fighters, their racial a
Umm Most of the Elves in the D&D universe are FAR from open minded, instead they are a closed and insular society and rather Snooty to boot.
"Elves are more often amused than excited, and more likely to be curious than greedy. With such a long life span, they tend to keep a broad perspective on events, remaining aloof and unfazed by petty happenstance. When pursuing a goal, however, whether an adventurous mission or learning a new skill or art, they can be focused and relentless. They are slow to make friends and enemies, and even slower to forget them. They reply to petty insults with disdain and to serious insults with vengeance."
"While haughty, elves are not particular the way halflings and dwarves can be, and they are generally pleasant and gracious even to those who fall short of elven standards (a category that encompasses just about everybody who’s not an elf)."
"Since elves love freedom, [b]variety, and self-expression[/b]. They lean strongly toward the gentler aspects of chaos. Generally, they value and protect others’ freedom as well as their own, and they are more often good than not."
Haughty/aloof =/= close minded. Anyone can be arrogant regardless of race (and generally every race considers itself the best). In the case of elves it is the perspective of those who don't understand that someone with a long lifespan would have a different perspective on events and, even more often, accusations of arrogance tend to stem from envy/jealousy and the sheer inability to handle the fact that someone might be "better" (in whichever way). There are arrogant elves of course before someone accuses me of claiming to the contrary.
EDIT: Yeah, I suppose that the more rustic sub-groups of elves (wood, wild...) are indeed insular and a lot more "inward".
"I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints - the sinners are much more fun!"
Dwarves are SO much more fun than the Elves. All that lifespan (elves) and no JOY to it.
"Dwarves are slow to laugh or jest and suspicious of strangers, but they are generous to those few who earn their trust."
The handbook says one thing, the Novels and Characters used in the game and games run in Lake Geneva pretty much tell a different story. (I speak from historical perspective on the game.) Grayhawk was a bit different but in the end Faerun dominated.
I call on the precedent set in the case of Mass Effect: Deception vs. Fans and claim that established core canon trumps third-party fiction.
But seriously, I think people just tend to cling to stereotypes quite hard and most often unconsciously simply because they're shoved into our brains by pop-culture.
Many of the elf stereotypes are said to come from Tolkien yet in the SIlmarilion elves (well, Noldor primarily) are typically described as both taller and physically stronger than humans. Later on they "decline" but no such comparisons are made at that point.
The problem is the stereotypes were taken from LoTR where almost all we have are the "wood elves" while everything else was marginalized so we almost never see the Noldor-like elves that are quite urban and industrial. Yet, not even LoTR provides basis for the -2 con thing which was added in d&d as a matter of balance and because it "fit" (I assume). And the idea that elves are always uptight and joyless is even stranger as it's unsupported by the descriptions given in either JRR's work or the DnD handbook.
@Jean_Luc Ahhh but in the case of the Lake Geneva games and novels...those WERE the people who established Canon
I think part of the problem was the varying nature of the different "elves" from lore they range from mischievous spirits to cruel menaces......and then came Faerun where they became a race in its twilight, haughty and proud, and of the opinion that these "HUMANS" with their short lives and brutish manners could never be civilized.
these "HUMANS" with their short lives and brutish manners could never be civilized.
The view of human culture seems to be pretty much shared among the other "common races" though probably to varying degrees.
"Members of longer-lived races find human culture exciting but eventually a little wearying or even bewildering. Since humans lead such short lives, their leaders are all young compared to the political, religious, and military leaders among the other races. Even where individual humans are conservative traditionalists, human institutions change with the generations, adapting and evolving faster than parallel institutions among the elves, dwarves, gnomes, and halflings. Individually and as a group, humans are adaptable opportunists, and they stay on top of changing political dynamics. Human lands generally include relatively large numbers of nonhumans (compared, for instance, to the number of non-dwarves who live in dwarven lands)."
Of course this is because popular fiction in general is all just human wankery. Humans are always the best, the most progressive, the most adaptable and when there is a race that is supposedly superior, humans always have an ace in the sleeve, that je ne sais quoi, a.k.a. "the human spirit" that always makes them win out in the end and be dominant. It's the humans' world, everyone else is just living in it. Even in Star Trek that I like so much, the Federation is pretty much a human hegemony.
In terms of tropes, humans are the true "elves" imo. But that's a whole different story.
Yeah, don't get me started. Omnipotence and omniscience aren't good enough for humans, no. We're going to go beyond that into some kind of abstractedly abstract meta-meta-divinity/supra-maybe-existence. And all those god-like Qs are actually soooo jelly of us because they're stuck being mere masters of space-time so they have to tease us constantly. Durrrr.
If I wanted to listen to your yip, ya prissy elf, I'd pull you over my knee and smack your bottom. Atleast then I'd have meself something interesting to do while you blathered on.
Dwarven culture appeals to me much more (craftsmanship, ale, directness, etc), and I enjoy playing one. Too bad dwarves can't be mages in BG. On the other hand Elven culture (nature, meditation, evasiveness, etc) seems boring to me and their extreme longevity alienates them for me. They can be mages and are much prettier, but that doesn't appeal to me enough to play them as often as I do dwarves.
Races by order of preference:
Dwarf Planetouched Half-Elf Elf Half-Orc Human Halfling Gnome
It's a mistake to believe Dwarves are "over weight", their physiology is not the same as humans, where Humans store Fat for quick energy reserves (belley and thighs) there is dense muscle mass in Dwarves and thicker bone structure surrounding and supporting.
Dwarves are wasted on cross country, they are Sprinters!
Though I am human myself, I am a follower of Lathander. Priests of the Morninglord and elves go way back. At the time of Middle Earth, Galadriel herself was Queen of the Morning Star (while Arwen of Rivendell was of the Evening Star). I never could relate to the dwarves' near-obsession with riches. Their craftsmanship is to be admired though. Many believe that elves have a superiority complex, or at least aristocratic about their natural abilities. Perhaps it goes with being 800+ years old and looking not a day over 35. Like all races, there are elves I like, those I do not. So my vote was cast based on history of famous elves, as well as who I would most like to visit and spend time with.
@Cleric_of_Lathander the Dwarves "Obsession" with riches was not really that extreme until duped into accepting the 7 Rings which warped, distorted and perverted their worst chacteristics to evil. They were Builders and Crafter in the beginning much like the Noldorin creators of the Silmarils.
Dwarves are much more fun. I like fighter types and dwarves do well in that role. Plus, I find the typical dwarven personality to be better than elves. Elves are too delicate and snooty and I generally find them annoying.
Ever heard of muls; the half-dwarves from the good ol' Dark Sun campaign setting?
Oh, Dark Sun. Such a magical setting. The only fantasy tabletop game I'm aware of where cannibalism would be met with a shrug of indifference. (Assuming you're not the one about to be cannibalized, of course.)
I hate elves. Stuck-up little braggarts. Actually, the elves in BG and DnD in general aren't as annoying, but all of the bad fantasy series (e.g., the Eragon series) like to overdo them, which I can't stand. Dwarves are so much more down to earth. (What a fitting expression- that wasn't even on purpose. Don't you love how these things work out sometimes?)
Comments
Dwarves are SO much more fun than the Elves. All that lifespan (elves) and no JOY to it.
That said, I more usually play an elf, because +1 DEX helps survivability AND fighting, while +1 CON only helps the latter (I usually go the Ranger route). As pure fighters, their racial a
likely to be curious than greedy. With such a long life span, they
tend to keep a broad perspective on events, remaining aloof and
unfazed by petty happenstance. When pursuing a goal, however,
whether an adventurous mission or learning a new skill or art, they
can be focused and relentless. They are slow to make friends and
enemies, and even slower to forget them. They reply to petty insults
with disdain and to serious insults with vengeance."
"While haughty, elves are not particular the way halflings and dwarves can be, and they are generally
pleasant and gracious even to those who fall short of elven standards (a category that encompasses just about everybody who’s not an elf)."
"Since elves love freedom, [b]variety, and self-expression[/b]. They lean strongly toward the gentler aspects of chaos. Generally, they value and protect others’ freedom as well as their own,
and they are more often good than not."
Haughty/aloof =/= close minded. Anyone can be arrogant regardless of race (and generally every race considers itself the best). In the case of elves it is the perspective of those who don't understand that someone with a long lifespan would have a different perspective on events and, even more often, accusations of arrogance tend to stem from envy/jealousy and the sheer inability to handle the fact that someone might be "better" (in whichever way). There are arrogant elves of course before someone accuses me of claiming to the contrary.
EDIT: Yeah, I suppose that the more rustic sub-groups of elves (wood, wild...) are indeed insular and a lot more "inward".
"I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints - the sinners are much more fun!"
Dwarves are SO much more fun than the Elves. All that lifespan (elves) and no JOY to it.
"Dwarves are slow to laugh or jest and suspicious of strangers, but they are generous to those few who earn their trust."
Read the handbook people.
But seriously, I think people just tend to cling to stereotypes quite hard and most often unconsciously simply because they're shoved into our brains by pop-culture.
Many of the elf stereotypes are said to come from Tolkien yet in the SIlmarilion elves (well, Noldor primarily) are typically described as both taller and physically stronger than humans. Later on they "decline" but no such comparisons are made at that point.
The problem is the stereotypes were taken from LoTR where almost all we have are the "wood elves" while everything else was marginalized so we almost never see the Noldor-like elves that are quite urban and industrial. Yet, not even LoTR provides basis for the -2 con thing which was added in d&d as a matter of balance and because it "fit" (I assume). And the idea that elves are always uptight and joyless is even stranger as it's unsupported by the descriptions given in either JRR's work or the DnD handbook.
Ahhh but in the case of the Lake Geneva games and novels...those WERE the people who established Canon
I think part of the problem was the varying nature of the different "elves" from lore they range from mischievous spirits to cruel menaces......and then came Faerun where they became a race in its twilight, haughty and proud, and of the opinion that these "HUMANS" with their short lives and brutish manners could never be civilized.
"Members of longer-lived races find human culture exciting
but eventually a little wearying or even bewildering.
Since humans lead such short lives, their leaders are all young
compared to the political, religious, and military leaders among the
other races. Even where individual humans are conservative
traditionalists, human institutions change with the generations,
adapting and evolving faster than parallel institutions among the
elves, dwarves, gnomes, and halflings. Individually and as a group,
humans are adaptable opportunists, and they stay on top of changing
political dynamics.
Human lands generally include relatively large numbers of
nonhumans (compared, for instance, to the number of non-dwarves
who live in dwarven lands)."
Of course this is because popular fiction in general is all just human wankery. Humans are always the best, the most progressive, the most adaptable and when there is a race that is supposedly superior, humans always have an ace in the sleeve, that je ne sais quoi, a.k.a. "the human spirit" that always makes them win out in the end and be dominant. It's the humans' world, everyone else is just living in it. Even in Star Trek that I like so much, the Federation is pretty much a human hegemony.
In terms of tropes, humans are the true "elves" imo. But that's a whole different story.
But I love Q so what can ya do.
Races by order of preference:
Dwarf
Planetouched
Half-Elf
Elf
Half-Orc
Human
Halfling
Gnome
I never play halflings or gnomes.
No, they don't.
Any Munchkin players here?
Dwarves are wasted on cross country, they are Sprinters!
get your CON to 19 + 1 (tome) =regen in BG1 (pretty useful imo)
Ever heard of muls; the half-dwarves from the good ol' Dark Sun campaign setting?