Go(ing) to Hell
CTKnightOwl
Member Posts: 88
So I have one major issue with the trials of hell and I apologize if this has been covered.
If you are neutral, you have to choose ALL good paths. Otherwise, you instantly become evil. If you choose all good and even 1 evil, you are evil. This seems a bit odd to me.
Would someone kindly explain to me how this is justified or perhaps make a case that all good choices are more realistic to a neutral character? Some of the "evil" rewards (like Black Razor or certain stat increases) are way more attractive to my neutral character but I am unable to claim them lest my alignment shifts to evil.
I find it odd that you can be evil and choose all good choices and still remain evil/
One more thought: Can the Helm of Alignment Change be used to fool the trials into maintaining a non evil alignment with evil choices?
If you are neutral, you have to choose ALL good paths. Otherwise, you instantly become evil. If you choose all good and even 1 evil, you are evil. This seems a bit odd to me.
Would someone kindly explain to me how this is justified or perhaps make a case that all good choices are more realistic to a neutral character? Some of the "evil" rewards (like Black Razor or certain stat increases) are way more attractive to my neutral character but I am unable to claim them lest my alignment shifts to evil.
I find it odd that you can be evil and choose all good choices and still remain evil/
One more thought: Can the Helm of Alignment Change be used to fool the trials into maintaining a non evil alignment with evil choices?
Post edited by CTKnightOwl on
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cant help you with the helm question though sorry
I guess there no concept of redemption. Once you are evil you are evil forever but it is very easy to go from good or neutral to evil. This just doesn't seem right.
Redemption is for people who make horrible mistakes or change their entire way of life. Not for people who make a calculated decision to kill someone in exchange for a material reward, no matter how valuable they find it. Honestly, that would be out of character for all good characters and the vast majority of neutral characters.
edit: just looked it up. Djinn are supposedly only True Neutral or Chaotic Good (though I feel like the Trademeet ones were LE so the game may not follow the same rules) http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Djinn
I don't want this thread to digress into a discussion about semantics. I appreciate the info on Djinns. This was just one example I gave.
I agree that a good character should choose all good paths. The main point of this thread is that Neutral characters have but one option which to me does not seem to be the essence of balance. Neutral characters sometimes do things that are considered evil. This rule seems to be suspended in hell and I guess I would like to see that change.
Also most people don't see neutral as "sometimes good, sometimes evil". I mean, which neutral npc would kill the Djinn? I seriously doubt Cernd, Jan or Haer'Dalis would, and I know Jaheira wouldn't. Maybe Yoshimo. There is good, neutral and evil according to this system, not good, sometimes good and evil. I think you are interpreting the alignment system differently than the game does.
You misunderstand what I said. The word "the" means "this particular djinn" not "djinn in general"
come on man. This thread is degenerating and I would really like for it to get back on topic
You seem like you know a lot about this realm which is great. I enjoy a spirited debate.
You know nothing about djinn=you don't know about the race
You know nothing about the djinn=you know nothing about the djinn you kill for blackrazor.
I was trying to say the second one. I thought I was clear, but I can see how the mistake can be made.
The questions are this: 1. How is killing a person you don't know in exchange for a weapon anything but evil? and 2. What does "neutral" mean. I think that is the crux of the debate.
I love redemption stories (Xena for the win)
That would make for an interesting mod actually
You begin as TN. If you choose one option it might shift your alignment 1/2 points toward chaos or lawfulness. It also may shift you toward good or evil. The sliding scale decides what your characters alignment is. It is a very elegant take on the alignment system, definitely more so than the hell trials (though I do like them).
It is worth checking out if you haven't. Very fun game to play and adored by most fans.
Adahn, original author, writes:
Originally intended as a small contribution to a larger project that is now never to be completed, this mod deals with the five tests that occur in the Abyss (or Gehenna, depending on whom you ask) during chapter 7. From a roleplaying standpoint, this final stage of the game seemed somewhat unsatisfying, especially for neutral characters. And the fact that a neutral protagonist had to complete all five tests in the "good" manner in order to remain neutral doesn't appear too logical, either. Therefore, this mod attempts to resolve these issues by changing the following things:
For each of the tests there's now a "neutral" path to take, resulting in a different reward as well. Sometimes the neutral path is closer to the original evil way, sometimes to the good one, and sometimes it is completely different to either of them.
After the last test the protagonist's alignment is judged, which can result both in a positive or negative adjustment. It's generally easier to drop down to evil than to become good, though.
The conditions for a paladin's or ranger's loss of his class have been slightly refined, causing a higher tolerance of neutral and evil acts for the ranger. In addition, specialist clerics will now lose their kit if they stray from the alignment dictated by the respective god.
I'd love to see this on the next patch
Anyone tried this mod?
As the thread owner you can too edit the category by clicking on the gear icon on the top right side of the OP and then by selecting the right category from the cascade menu you'll find.
For the question of morality, I believe this is the "lesser evil" option. You are essentially taking an indifference of someone's suffering. In this case, the Djnni is suffering because it can not return to its plane. Giving him the sword is like releasing someone's bondage and killing him with the sword is like committing murder. Stealing the Bhaal Tear is like robbing a prisoner and abandoning him to his doom fate.
Actually nevermind, I feel like a monster justifying my "lesser evil" option.
If I were a good aligned character and I donned said helm, then proceeded to make some, most, or even all evil choices(trials), and then remove curse(helm) when all is done, would my alignment remain evil or return to it's original state?
My reasoning behind this is that the (hell trials)alignment change may not be coded(for lack of a better word) if it reads that you are evil to begin with. Also, from a role-playing standpoint, my good character is acting under the influence of the cursed helm and is making trial choices accordingly.
I am going to try this out the next time I get there but if anyone else wants to give it a shot, I would be interested in hearing of the results.
I think having an alignment fluctuate based on personal actions (as in NWN) is a better system than reputation. Of course, stuff like the Sarevok and Nymph Cloak dilemmas would have to be avoided. Doing things that are completely opposed to your alignment should cause a big shift, while smaller actions would have lesser consequences (ie a neutral good thief pickpocketing a local merchant=2 shifts toward evil/chaos while a Paladin killing Noober=*automatically* fallen)