Better Villain: Sarevok or Irenicus

happslapp

On one hand you have your half brother who killed your foster father and wants you dead, on the other you have an excommunicated elf mage who wants to steal your soul to reach godlike powers. i always leaned towards Jon, especially since ToB reunites you with your bro, but their both pretty bad.

Bjjorick

i don't care much for jon, yeah he's evil and yeah, he steals your soul, but from the moment i saw him, my first thought was arrogant prick. Sarevok i could relate to on a more human level. i liked his va better, athough i'm sure i'll get some hate for that comment, and in the end, the fact that saravok was there in some role or another through out the trilogy made him the greater char. Also, at the end, he sorta submits to you and admits that you are superior, and you can even turn him good.

There was no redeeming irenicus. He was a fool, pure and simple. He has a good life but he craved more. He gave up the woman he loved for a chance at that power, lost, and instead of learning from it, he tried to get around the system, again. He tried to hurt others for his own foolishness, and his only reason? They spanked me mama, i'm gonna get them back.

He was the type that grew powerful, but gave up everything he had for his vengence. His lack of concern for anyone but himself makes him unlikable in sooooo many ways in my eyes.

Drugar

Both are really awesome villains, but Sarevok scores juuuuust a little higher in my book.

Both basicly intended to do the same thing; achieve Godhood. One thought it would be through the mass-murder of thousands, to fuel his divine blood (except it didn't work like that), the other wanted to absorb the powers of the Tree of Life and storm into the Seldarine's backyard to get revenge on basicly everyone.

While Irenicus is an ass, I didn't hate him as much as Sarevok. Irenicus never really cared about me, and in turn I never *really* cared about him. Sarevok really, really wanted me dead. And he killed my dad. That's never smart.

Moomintroll

I enjoy Sarevok being a more distant figure and learning about him through evidence left lying around and conversation. With Irenicus it is pretty much rammed down your throat with dream sequences and cutscenes.

Shin

This has been up before I believe. Still, I prefer Irenicus - he's more of an evil scientist whereas Sarevok is more of an evil brute, and even though it's misguided, all the suffering he's causing isn't for the sake of misery in itself.
Unlike Bjjorick, I find Irenicus easier to relate to - I would think that in the D&D realms as on Earth, people who end up very gifted often feel they should be able to use those gifts as they see fit, and won't accept anyone trying to hold them back.

g314

Sarevok orchestrated such an intricate plan to unleash a war of sacrifice on the entire Sword Coast for his foolish quest to become the new Lord of Murder. Irenicus was just a random powerful mage with a thirst for revenge. Irenicus is definitely more dangerous than Sarevok, but his plans were much more focused on his hometown than anywhere else.

Grimo88

In defense of Irenicus:

The thing that has always impressed me about Irenicus is that he manages (or rather, the writers do) to pull off the most cliched and easy antagonist motivation in history, the power-hungry maniac, with aplomb and sincerity. His dream-speech on 'power' manages to push the character beyond any of his villainous video-game contemporaries by providing a chilling personal philosophy that is hard to fault.

He is the consummate arch-villain, always one step ahead. Get locked up in a magical prison? No problem, he'll manage to turn it into his own personal laboratory and draw you, the last piece in his game, straight to it. Pure evil genius perfection.

And to top it all off, the tragic wrinkle. You aren't jilted in love until you're room-full-of- insane-clones-of-your-beloved, consolation-dryad-sex-slave jilted.

Permidion_Stark

Sarevok. Irenicus talks too much.

Ken

Sarevok might be a fighter, but he sure knew how to make huge plans!

Besides, the final battle with him was much more personal.. With Irenicus you first had to beat him in Spellhold, then the Tree of Life, and yet AGAIN in hell, what a fucking pussy

Shin

@Ken I tend to view it as exciting to have an antagonist that you face off with a bit before the final encounter in multiple stages, a bit like Saren in ME for comparison. It also serves to give him more screen time, rather than only brief appearances at the very beginning and the very end.

sirseor

I like Irenicus, he is like many of the characters in BG: A little cheesy, perhaps even cliche, but pulled off so very well.

Besides, I love philosophy, and any character (good or evil) who will tell me about the philosophy of WHY they do what they do automatically scores points in my book. "Life, is strength... it seems logical enough."

Bjjorick

@shin oddly, i loved saren as a final boss, and though i haven't finished part 3 yet, i don't think anyone will replace him as the best of the series. But saren never made it personal, and he even doubted his own plans, a more 'human' trait to me then irenicus ever had. and my last play though, i took down sarevok after about 4 reloads, and the last batter was a bit rough.

Irenicus on the other hand, first time the game bugged, he didn't turn slayer, didn't summon his demons. So had to reload. But in spellhold, tree of life, and in hell, he was no challenge at all. I wasn't even high level. He was kind of a fight and lose, he runs away, you fight him again, he gets away but you get pulled along with him, and the final battle? i've beaten you twice already, why do you continue to talk like you stand a chance when you haven't even damaged me yet?

Jean_Luc

Was quite surprised to see Sarevok take such a big lead early on.

"Being cliche", I find, has become an almost pointless argument today, especially regarding something as old as the BG games. John is just so well done, the sad, tragic, mad, relentless, fear engine. What Patrick Stewart did for TNG, John's voice actor did for Irenicus, just brought it new heights of class.

Shin

@Bjjorick I guess it depends heavily on playstyle, experience with game mechanics and mod usage. In unmodded games it's common to beat BG1 by either pulling Sarevok's henchmen one by one, or by backstabbing him with the staff of striking and then just focusing him with the full party as the game ends when he dies. SCS improves this fight a fair bit and makes Sarevok invulnerable until you've finished off the other guys. For Irenicus, the SCS/Tactics component for him in SCS2 makes the showdown in hell very challenging indeed.

It's also a matter of AI since a fighter character like Sarevok with good stats (low AC, low thac0 and high magic resistance) will be very effective just by basic running around and meleeing, whereas a mage needs an extensive AI to hit peak potential. SCS improves this bit a whole lot as well.

In the spellhold fight I believe he's not meant to be all that challenging, optioning to cut the encounter short much like Saren on Virmire.

Bjjorick

@shin hmmm, i never played bg1 pure, i didn't hear about it until totsc was out and it was bundled set and i picked it up, and while all of my recent playthoughs have been on bgt, i thought you always went to the meeting before the game ended with totsc (so you could finish off the extra stuff before the game over scene). it could just be bgt and my memory playing tricks though.

and with saravok, i never do a single pull. I know you can, but i somehow doubt sarevok would just stand there and watch you 6 v 1 his people, since he was QUITE pissed at you at that time. Maybe that's why it's harder for me, but i do love the challenge. Kinda like saren(sauren?), i'm not very skilled on fps games, and that bugger started moving fast and hitting hard, and it was a much greater challenge then part 2, save up special ammo, nuke the baby terminator, he goes off screen, nuke him again, shoot of his last bit of healthy. Game over, man. Game over.

Ken

@Shin

I just felt "cheated" from my victory against Irenicus, like he is allowed to bend the rules by not dying proper!

I would mind being forced to fight against all of Sarevoks allies at once (force a cutscene as soon as you entered the temple) It would make it more epic!

Shin

@Bjjorick Yeah, personally I prefer to face Sarevok one-on-one and have my companions fight his - always made it feel more epic, and seem more proper. But as said, it depends a lot on personal playstyle.

And no, without BGT the game ends a few seconds after Sarevok dies. The only way to do more content after that is to reload an earlier save.

Mornmagor

Definetely Sarevok.

Not taking into account the fact that he has the most awesome voice acting for a villain, he is a richer character imo than Irenicus.

Both have some strong backrounds but Sarevok's story had more impact on me, since i could also redeem him, so he could at least give honor to his friends and people that cared for him (Tamoko).

Irenicus seems like, although highly intellectual, he was unable to understand why he was even exiled, and just thought of revenge. And we're not talking about revenge against someone that killed your loved ones. No, just people that denied you your power and tried to bring you to your senses.

Saying that, of course, i think some spanking should be in order for the genius elves who unleashed this individual into the world to "redeem" him.

Anyway, Sarevok it is!

Bjjorick

@mornmagor i claim the elf leader!!! umm, ellemiere? oy sleepy

Mornmagor

Ellesime

Majoca

I am suprised that people think Irenicus is the better villain, but I guese I hold a passion for baldurs gate 1 and I just find sarevok a really evil man, but he plays his role well and has a really powerful voice and the opening introduction is awesome

gfm50

Irenicus has more depth, but I am always biased towards just a pure power striving evil dude as a bad guy.

wissenschaft

Bah, I dislike Irenicus. Never been a fan of the mad mage villain. I liked Sarevok better because sometimes going for an unsympathetic straight up villain works best. Though even Sarevok gets a potential second chance in TOB. The fact that he can join your party makes me like him even more.

lDanielHolm

Sarevok, in my humble opinion. Especially since he comes back as a party member in TOB.

Dee

I prefer Irenicus, mostly because of David Warner. I do like Sarevok a lot, though; for as much as he seems to be a brute, he's kind of a criminal mastermind, taking over the Iron Throne and inventing the problems in Nashkel with the iron crisis. It's interesting that he's redeemable in ToB, although I'm not sure I buy it, personally.

Irenicus was a strong villain, considering that he bears no relation to the protagonist, and his presence in Amn seems to be more incidental than anything. But he still manages to capture your attention, and force you to pursue him. I don't know - something about his personality just draws me in. It's probably that philosophical side that someone mentioned; his presence in your dreams is a very interesting twist.

FrozenDervish

Sarevok was by far the better villian with his almost completed takeover and imminent war.

Irenicus was the better antagonist though as he is always in the characters head through dreams, kidnapping, his show of power and supreme confidence that his power is stronger. He steals your power, soul, immortality, and forces you to watch a friend and companion betray you and then force you to kill them. He violates everything that you have and simply doesn't care. You can't escape him until you erase him from existence.

So in the end while Sarevok gets you involved through repeated assassination attempts he's not really there as an antagonist outside of your need for revenge while Irenicus is pretty much beside you every step of the way.

Also for everyone saying that you just randomly appear in amn I believe the SoA tutorial shows you in the palace after beating Sarevok with your party and after you complete the tutorial it makes mention of your kidnapping or allowing you to assume you get kidnapped, so with this it is assumed your deed in the sword coast combined with Irenicus spies and possibly divination and rumors he captures you.

Sceptenar

CONTAINS MAJOR SPOILERS FROM BG1 and 2
Which is the better villain? Well, that would depend on your definition of better. Irenicus is certainly much more powerful than Sarevok, and Irenicus comes much closer to accomplishing his goals than Sarevok ever did, or could. Irenicus' plan was to drain the tree of life of its power to become a god, and he almost succeeds too, if not for the players intervention at the last moment. Sarevok on the other hand also intends to become a god, but his plan for doing so would simply not work, he only came up with the plan by misinterpreting the prophecies of Alaundo. Could Sarevok have managed to start a war between Baldur's Gate and Amn? Yes, he almost succeeds at this. But would that have triggered his apotheosis by "proving that he is worthy"? No, it would never happen, the essence of Bhaal doesn't work that way. As it was revealed in Throne of Bhaal, the essence was simply distributed to be returned to the throne when the Bhaalspawn die. When enough Bhaalspawn have died, and their essence returned to the source, Bhaal would be resurrected by his high priestess (let's hope she doesn't have ambitions of her own).
This is why I say Irenicus is a better villain than Sarevok, because his plan could actually succeed, Sarevok's plan could only partially succeed, and the primary goal is impossible for him to achieve.

taletotell

Sarevok was more personal. He tried to have you killed over and over. You occasionally caught up to irenicus but it didn't feel personal

Grif

Let's be honest, they're both pretty awesome.

srvk

I liked how Sarevok had his inner circle of followers within a broader circle of badies covered by the Iron Throne. Sarevok's group of followers included Tazok, Angelo, Zhalimar Cloudwulfe, Slythe, Tamoko, Prat and others while his father's Rieltar circle included Brunos, Tuth, Davaeorn, Mulahey, Tranzig. Irenicus' captains included his sister Bodhi, the Matron mother and Phaere, his dragon, an unknown Raksasha commander and that's it.

Sceptenar

@srvk
Technically most of those people you list are employed by the Iron Throne merchant company, and quite a few have a change of heart when Sarevok takes over. In the end, only Sarevok's inner circle stand by him. Semaj, Tazok and Angelo if I remember correctly.