Ultimate frontline tank charname in no-reload - F/M, F/M/C, Paladin, or Berserker?

Ygramul

Contrary to what one might expect, what *kills* a front line tank is usually not melee. (The Dwarven Defender would have been the undisputed king there.)

In a no-reload game, a frontline tank charname, will most likely be killed by being targeted with all the nasty magic (mages, beholders, demons etc.), including being stunned mid-melee, protections dispelled, petrified, or outright disintegrated.

So, who offers the best odds for a frontline charname to make it through a no-reload trilogy run?

I'm inclined to suggest a carefully played F/M/C [theoretical, never tried] that keeps M/C buffs up and *locked* with Spell Shield & Spell Immunity. Probably more reliable than any of the non-caster classes with immunities (e.g. Berserker) despite the troubles of triple class progression.

Any thoughts welcome...

mumumomo

i don't think BG has a concept of tank since they have no mean to manage the aggro.

The most resilient character is a high level mage (Staff of the magi + PFMW makes you immune to almost everything)

FMC or ranger cleric are also very resilient but you would probably need a lot of buff which can be painfully boring

Berserker is probably a good pick. Within 1 click you get immune to all nasty effects in the game for 10 rounds, which is usually enough to obliterate all opposition. His weakness compared to FMC or RC would be physical damage (no armor of faith, no ironskin)

Ygramul

Well, actually, in BG most agro defaults to "nearest visible enemy" (even for most SCS mobs). Regardless, whoever is front-and-center receives the blunt of the punishment, including spells.

A high level mage (even with SotM and PFMW) is probably a poor choice to be on the front line consistently, no?

Berserker is tempting, but no-reload means you can get caught without berserk charges (no scrolls or wands to replicate that effect).

Never tried ranger/cleric. Not sure if I can survive without any arcane casting. Any experience there?

CrevsDaak

Fighter/Mage/Cleric, can use SotM, can cast PfMW, Death Ward and much more, can cast (some) spells while wearing armor, might use Crom and other good weapons.

Corvino

I'd say that while a F/M/C does have the ability to cast Death Ward and Chaotic Commands themself, both of these spells can be cast by the party cleric on any other character unless you play solo. Personally I've always been sceptical of triple-class multis due to the painfully slow levelling and delayed or blocked access to any high-level spells. Cleric buffs just don't have the same scope for abuse as arcane buffs.

As a balance between immunities/resistances and XP splitting I'd suggest either a Gnome Fighter/Illusionist multiclass for great saves and mage protections or a Berserker->Mage multiclass who can exploit berserker rage immunities in common with mage protections.

FinneousPJ

F/M/C levels too slowly in a party, so I'd say F/M multi or dual, then R/C multi. Barbarian, berserker and paladin kits are nice too, if you prefer single classes.

Blackraven

I'm inclined to say Cleric/Mage, so without the Fighter part. The only advangtage a F/M/C would get for tanking purposes would eventually be about 20 more hitpoints, and at epic levels the Hardiness HLA.
For example a F/M/C with 19 CON and 750000 XP would be level 9/10/10 and have a maximum of 96 hitpoints, whereas a C/M with 16+ CON and 750000 XP would be level 10/11 and have 76 hitpoints. At the TOB level cap the F/M/C would have a maxiumum of 113 hitpoints and the C/M 96.

IMO the best tanks aren't those that can take an extra hit but those that are impossible to hit or hurt (I'm including status effects here), be it through physical, elemental or magical attacks. I think that the C/M with noticeably more spells than the F/M/C is preferable. Some of the C/M's spell slots can be filled with buffs/protections to turn them into a great tank; other spells slots can be used for damage dealing, crowd controlling, healing etc. spells.

Of course the F/M/C would also have better thac0 and more APR (which are characteristics of a good damage dealer though not necessarily of a good tank), but these disadvantages can be overcome by the C/M with the aforementioned flexibility that comes with a larger number of available spell slots.

Ygramul

I understand that a lot of important Cleric spells can be cast on the charname by a party priest. But aren't there crucial self-only buff spells for a front-line combatant? (Again this is for a no-reload SCS game, so charname will need to not only hit hard, but stay safe.)

DUHM, Holy Power, Cloak of Fear come to mind. But are they worth the trade of several fewer Mage levels (read: 2-3 lvl 9 spells & HLAS) even when the rest of Priest Spellbook thrown in?...

Corvino

Holy Power is mediocre for a multiclass due to low cleric caster level. Cloak of Fear is just mediocre. The strength bonus from DUHM can be compensated for in half a dozen ways. And none of those addresses the immunities/resistances that actually help with survival in a no reload run.

Arguably the best self-only Cleric buff is Righteous magic, which gives a Str bonus and max damage on hit for the duration. It's great, but it's offensive rather than something that will stop an elder orb imprisoning you.

A F/M/C is subpar because it gimps casting so much and the delayed fighter THAC0 you gain is little better than a plain C/M. There's a reason they're played pretty rarely.

bob_veng

ranger/cleric or cleric/mage for a party, depending on it's configuration. mage/cleric for solo.

Frosty

Halfling barabarion, shorty saves, large HP Pool, DR, and a lot of immunity's while enraged.

CrevsDaak

Frosty said:

Halfling barabarion, shorty saves, large HP Pool, DR, and a lot of immunity's while enraged.

I think that a Dwarf could do better, since they get another CON point and no STR penalty.

Demonoid_Limewire

Roll a berserker. Dual to mage at level 9 or 13. Problem solved.

elminster

Gnome Fighter/Illusionist. You get the gnomes saving throws and a ton of other useful spells for stopping either magic or physical damage. Eventually you'll even get time stop.

FinneousPJ

I think Berserker->Mage is overrated, because you can get the effects of rage from mage spells as well. With rage being redundant it's not that great a build. Also, for no reload games the cooldown with rage can be quite devastating.

Dragonspear

Cavalier

bob_veng

how is cavalier going to compete with mage's protections or ranger/cleric's buffs and iron skins, tell me please

Corvino

Paladins can actually compete with Mages in some ways if you're prepared to abuse Carsomyr to get absurdly high MR. Carsomyr + Ring of Gaxx + Amulet of the Seldarine/10% MR is 70% already. It's not complete immunity but it's nonspecific enough to cover multiple spells, has infinite duration and is immune to dispelling/breaching. With the Cloak of Mirroring, Chaotic Commands and Death Ward they're very tricky to kill.

Cavaliers or pure Paladins can also stack Hardiness, the DoE and AoF for high levels of physical damage resistance when needed. I don't think they're necessarily the "best" in terms of survivability but they have a number of options available to them.

Any class can also now gain the benefits of mirror image 3 times per day with a ring available as part of Rasaad's Quest in BG2.

elminster

bob_veng said:

how is cavalier going to compete with mage's protections or ranger/cleric's buffs and iron skins, tell me please

Its not the direction I would go either way but a case could be made for it.

+2 saving throws will help out a little. Like @Corvino pointed out they'll also get access to a lot of weapons and items that will help out with protection (some of which a Cleric/Ranger can't use). If you are going two handed style you can even give them specialisation in a bow of some kind which will let them take down mages (and more importantly other spellcasting creatures like dragons) fairly easily (especially in BG1 and even BG2 thanks to Arrows of Dispelling).

Necomancer

The lack of mage defensive spells can really hurt a paladin as far as being a tank goes, however Carsomyr can more then make up for this later on. Imoen casting Breach+Carsomyr basically decimated many enemy mages in my playthrough. Also being immune to poison (ala Cavalier) is a big bonus early BG1, especially if you come across spiders.

Still, you lose stone skin and other defense spells that make you a much better tank. I remember with some shame how I faced Firkraag and kept dying as a paladin with 19 con and tons of AC and a decent level to boot. Then Haer'Dalis cast stone skin and tanked the guy the entire time. With just stoneskin. I have never forgiven him and to this day he was amongst those left behind when I went to face Mellisan and my pocket plane ceased to exist, I imagine him stuck in some endless void of nothingness learning just how boring oblivion really is. Mwahahahahaha...Neera was stuck there too but only because the game doesn't give you the option to toss people out. Oh well.

Dragonspear

I like cavalier earlier in the game when I'm more likely to need it in a no reload run.

Immune to fear and poison (2 major BG1 killers right there), and can easily make themselves fully immune to fire in both games without much trouble, heck you can easily start healing from fire by the end of the Windspire Hills quest if you want to.

Extremely late, I think a mage does it better, but a paladin cannot be discounted, especially early on and for most of BG1. By the time BG2 comes along, you have a plethora of both weapon skills available and weapons to suit them.

If good shields existed (I hear rumors but I've never actually met one, I'd still prolly use the dragon scale shield for flavor), you could also use the purifier +5 in ToB with the shield and be a walking red menance with a holy sword which is always fun.

Also cavalier over inquisitors just due to priest spells.

SionIV

I would pick a cleric/ranger over any of those for the 'ultimate' tank in a no-reload game.

Ironskin
Chaotic Command
Death Ward
Shield of Archon
Armor of Faith

And then you got a nicer level progression not to mention you'll be good tank even without buffs, something a F/M would fail quite horribly if s/he somehow got his protections removed.

Nothing beats an arcane caster if you got 100% meta knowledge about every single fight. But otherwise i would rank a C/R as a more comfortable tank that is also more 'reliable' for most people in a no-reload game.

jackjack

A myopic Bard. Who would hit a guy with glasses?

Ygramul

For M/C or F/M/C are there any good Contingency & Spell Trigger options that can be employed along with priest spells?

SionIV

Ygramul said:

For M/C or F/M/C are there any good Contingency & Spell Trigger options that can be employed along with priest spells?

No priest spells are worth using in a Contingency or spell trigger. The good priest spells all have a long duration and can be used before the fight.

Blackraven

Dragonspear said:

If good shields existed (I hear rumors but I've never actually met one, I'd still prolly use the dragon scale shield for flavor), you could also use the purifier +5 in ToB with the shield and be a walking red menance with a holy sword which is always fun.

Also cavalier over inquisitors just due to priest spells.

I always liked the Shield of Harmony the best, immunity to Charm, Hold and Confusion, combined with the Cavlier's innate immunity to Fear sounds pretty good for a tank. I believe it doesn't protects against psionics and domination though.

elminster

Ygramul said:

For M/C or F/M/C are there any good Contingency & Spell Trigger options that can be employed along with priest spells?

In a no reload challenge Holy Smite is probably going to be the best offensive priest spell to use in a trigger. But from a tank/fighter standpoint Righteous Magic is also another good choice. It has a long casting time and depending on your level it can have as little as a 9 round duration (it will reach 2 turns by level 20).

Regeneration is an example of a good choice for a defensive spell in a trigger (or Chain Continguency). It has a long casting time and also has a fairly short duration.

bbear

Blackraven said:

Dragonspear said:

If good shields existed (I hear rumors but I've never actually met one, I'd still prolly use the dragon scale shield for flavor), you could also use the purifier +5 in ToB with the shield and be a walking red menance with a holy sword which is always fun.

Also cavalier over inquisitors just due to priest spells.

I always liked the Shield of Harmony the best, immunity to Charm, Hold and Confusion, combined with the Cavlier's innate immunity to Fear sounds pretty good for a tank. I believe it doesn't protects against psionics and domination though.

The way the game works, charm is the same as domination. The only thing the Shield of Harmony doesnt protect is stun. Ring of Free Action should take care of that if you dont have access to Chaotic Commands.

Blackraven

bbear said:

Blackraven said:

Dragonspear said:

The way the game works, charm is the same as domination. The only thing the Shield of Harmony doesnt protect is stun.

@bbear wow that's even better than I'd thought. Do you know whether Charm Protection also covers other "mind control" spells from the Enchantment/Charm school, specifically (Greater) Command and Emotion: Hopelessness? In BG1, a number of enemies cast these spells (e.g. Bassilus and Narcillus). In BG2, I think domination is the most common form.

bbear

@Blackraven: No, it's just that charm and domination has the same effect in the game. The Shield of Harmony does not protect against sleep/unconsciousness or other enchantment effects not listed in the item description.

In a solo no reload run using FMT, my PC would usually equip the Shield of Harmony and Amulet of Power. Depending on the situations, he would equip the Ring of Free Action and Dragon Slayer Longsword/Blackrazor. Hindo's Doom+4 is there for any Death Magic protection (Balthzar likes to use Quivering Palm).

Blackraven

@bbear, thanks! I got confused (another nasty status effect), when I read the Helm of Charm Protection's description, which explicitly states that it stops all forms of emotional manipulation.
You got your FMT covered nevertheless