@SionIV Not sure where you are getting your numbers, but they are off.
1. MR is 2% per level, capped at L20 for 40%. Anomen gets 40% MR at L20. Not too far off Viconia since 7 levels in Fighter hardly hurts his XP progression. For Viconia, I'd say there is a way to tap into her MR, but for a character who support from the back, wouldn't she be targeted LESS by monsters unless you put her at the front lines (and hence contradicting your strategy)?
There is a good way to use Viconia's MR, but I doubt it's as clear-cut as expected, at least in practice
2. Hmm. I'm not giving any points here to anyone. If Viconia is graded highly because of high strength from an item, and another character in comparison can also use the item, it is only logical that no points are given to anyone.
3. Druid vs. Cleric argument. There are pros and cons for both, though at the high levels, for spell selection, clerics win at the lower levels, but druids come out ahead at the higher levels. Situational I'd say
4. Eh... you can identify with spells, scrolls, items (glasses), at temples, bards... surely you don't need that measly lore bonus that will be superseded by another option? o.O
Yes, Cernd's base stats are depressing. I don't like him, but I like to root for the underdog
1.) You're correct here, was thinking of something else. That's a level 20 anomen that has 40% from a SPELL which is still 25% less than a naked Viconia on level 8 without a spell. You'll never reach 100% on Anomen while it's quite simple to reach for Viconia.
2.) Viconia is graded highly because the weakness she has (STR/CON) can all be taken care of very early on in the game. She can even improve on them herself with DuHM, something Cernd and Jaheira can't.
3.) I do love druids and enjoy playing them, but having one or two amazing spells doesn't make their spell list better than the cleric. This is opinion based so i'm not saying you're wrong, just saying we rate and value spells differently.
4.) It's still a nice bonus, try making a C/M with 19/21 (tomes from BG) and you'll have enough lore to never need to use an identify spell. I personally love Lore.
If you would give her 65% MR to anyone else, that person would have been the best in their category. Minsc would have been better than Valygar. Mazzy would be better than Korgan, Korgan would be better than Sarevok. It is that powerful.
I'm enjoying this actually. Instead of running conflicting arguments with my mind I'm running arguments with others. If I can defend a position with reasonable grounds it will mean the argument has more merit.
I'm cool with #1. MR is Viconia's unique advantage, and should remain so. #3 is also subjective, but I'm more offensive (in ways more than one LOL)
2. Actually, I beg to differ. Whatever Str/Con she can boost herself with, so can Cernd and Jaheira. For DUHM, I'd say she will outclass Cernd in combat ability and AC, but all the AC in the world cannot save her from a physical hit the way that an Iron Skin can. No matter how low she can get her AC to, any natural roll of 20 is an automatic hit on her.
And for the comparison with Jaheira, Jaheira has the THAC0 of a fighter which is better than Viconia's. Viconia may swing for more damage per hit with DUHM, but Jaheira has multiple attacks (2.5x Viconia's). Like you say, a 19 Str belt can be obtained fairly easily. If we're talking about physical damage, Jaheira will always outclass Viconia.
And if you're not using Viconia to do physical damage... probably the belt should be worn by another who can, thus weakening your point. And again, Jaheira can buff herself with Iron Skins. Viconia will get hit pretty frequently.
4. Clerics only get 1 Lore per level. At 18 Wis and 16 Int, Viconia has a +15 bonus max. L40 cleric with 15 Lore bonus comes to only 55 Lore. Even Aerie can reach 55 Lore when she gets to L15 as a mage (15x3=45+10 from stats). There is no point counting this bonus when it's eventually inconsequential
I'm enjoying this actually. Instead of running conflicting arguments with my mind I'm running arguments with others. If I can defend a position with reasonable grounds it will mean the argument has more merit.
I'm cool with #1. MR is Viconia's unique advantage, and should remain so. #3 is also subjective, but I'm more offensive (in ways more than one LOL)
2. Actually, I beg to differ. Whatever Str/Con she can boost herself with, so can Cernd and Jaheira. For DUHM, I'd say she will outclass Cernd in combat ability and AC, but all the AC in the world cannot save her from a physical hit the way that an Iron Skin can. No matter how low she can get her AC to, any natural roll of 20 is an automatic hit on her.
And for the comparison with Jaheira, Jaheira has the THAC0 of a fighter which is better than Viconia's. Viconia may swing for more damage per hit with DUHM, but Jaheira has multiple attacks (2.5x Viconia's). Like you say, a 19 Str belt can be obtained fairly easily. If we're talking about physical damage, Jaheira will always outclass Viconia.
And if you're not using Viconia to do physical damage... probably the belt should be worn by another who can, thus weakening your point. And again, Jaheira can buff herself with Iron Skins. Viconia will get hit pretty frequently.
4. Clerics only get 1 Lore per level. At 18 Wis and 16 Int, Viconia has a +15 bonus max. L40 cleric with 15 Lore bonus comes to only 55 Lore. Even Aerie can reach 55 Lore when she gets to L15 as a mage (15x3=45+10 from stats). There is no point counting this bonus when it's eventually inconsequential
1.) Viconia and Cernd should stand in the back, if they are getting hit you're playing something wrong. And having an AC on -15 to -20 will still prevent most attacks until you hit ToB where you really should keep them back. I'll agree with Iron Skin on Jaheira as she is a F/D.
2.) Viconia can get 24/24/23 with DuHM, Cernd and Jaheira can't even get close to this. Having that high stats doesn't really matter, especially not to a pure cleric like Viconia, but it's possible.
3.) I agree fully that Jaheira is better in close combat as a F/D.
4.) There are so many items that grant you Strength that it doesn't matter. You can give her the mace from cooper coronet to improve her Strength to 18. Then you got 3 belts, 1 pair of gauntlets and Angurvadale (?) that will also boost your strength. It shouldn't be a problem to give her one of these items, and she can boost her STR up to 18 by spells.
5.) I'm not trying to say that those +5 lore she gets from her intellect score will make much of a difference, but it's a nice thing to have. The reason i'm adding it is because she is one of the few NPC's that can actually identify stuff with her lore from the start. Even if it's only stuff like short sword +1 and arrows, it's still something that will save a little bit of money.
1. Cernd can cast Iron Skins too. But my question is, if Viconia's MR is so amazing, and she has to stay in the back where she is hit far less often with spells... Awesome ability, but less relevant as it could be because she'll be at the back. An ability which cannot be used readily should score less, since it will be used less often
2. First, I notice you said Viconia's Str/Con can be taken care of early in the game. But DUHM only adds 1 Str/Dex/Con per three levels. To get the full +6 bonus, she has to be at least L18. I don't consider L18 "early in the game" at all, so you may need to revise your assessment.
3. There will be many items that grant strength, but they often come late: - Girdle of Hill Giant Strength - Athkatla in Ch.2 - Girdle of Stone Giant Strength - Suldanessellar in Ch.6 - Girdle of Frost Giant Strength - Underdark in Ch.5 - Girdle of Fire Giant Strength - Fire Giant Temple in TOB - Gauntlets of Ogre Power - Planar Sphere in Ch.2, assuming you do it in Ch.2 - Angurvadal - TOB after obtaining items - Mauler's Arm - Athkatla in Ch.2
Only the Girdle of Hill Giant Strength and Gauntlets of Ogre Power are readily accessible (pre-Spellhold). Until then, Viconia will have no love. She can use the Mauler's Arm, but it only grants a Strength bonus when equipped, so she'll suck in slings early game, unless you want her at the front lines.
The point of highlighting this is that your statement that "Viconia's Str/Con can be taken care of early in the game" is not as straightforward as it looks, since it's pretty conditional.
4. Doesn't matter at all. If you play cheap.
Highest-level Viconia spawn in SOA Government District is 1.2m XP, which is L13. That means she has a Lore of 13+15=28. If you can get Viconia at 1.2m, you can also get Jan at 1.2m XP (since they spawn in the same area). Jan will be a L12 thief. Total Lore is 12x3+5=41 which is much higher than Viconia. Just recruit Jan, get him to look at all your items, and boot him :P
And nobody says you can't recruit Jan, get him to memorize all the Identify spells he can, identify your items, then kick him out. Poor turnip guy
Even if you are unable to recruit and dismiss him frequently, if you are playing a Thief or Mage PC, you should be able to overtake Viconia in Lore as long as one of the classes is at L10, not counting Lore bonuses from Int/Wis. Or if you are importing a powerful character, it's also possible. Even if you can't DIY for identification, most items don't require identification to use, especially for many veterans with metagaming knowledge... you only need to identify them when you are selling them
I know I might have sounded argumentative, but in the interest of sound reasoning, it can be healthy to debate.
The fact remains that the one single advantage where Viconia is clearly superior compared to all other divine casters is her MR. All her other alleged advantages over other divine casters are debatable (Druid vs Cleric), count for very little (e.g. 18 Wis, Lore bonus), or are conditional (e.g. stats from DUHM, a spell that lasts merely 1 turn).
She is not even a "better divine caster" because spell effects are capped at L20 (so all the divine casters can cast at same effectiveness eventually) and clerics reach max spell progression at L38 so Anomen gets it too since his max level is F7/C39. A few more memorizations of inconsequential low level spells do not a better caster make.
If we look at her objectively as a character, it's difficult to conclude that she is decidedly more powerful than other divine casters. To make the best use of her, it probably has to come down to how to leverage her MR (boosting her to 100% MR with items and boots of speed, then drawing spell attacks on herself, etc.). Otherwise, she brings relatively little to the table other than her sex appeal.
- Viconias MR is amazing. - Viconia is a better divine SPELL CASTER than the other options. - Cleric Vs Druid is opinion based, we all value them differently.
@SionIV I'm not sure #2 is true in any meaningful way. For example, I never once found Anomen lacking in my game.
Anomen has a very slightly slower progression (64k XP slower). But when we talk about mid-to-endgame effectiveness, probably not.
1. Viconia's spells are not more potent than Anomen's eventually because spell effects are capped at L20 unless you use a mod. A C20 will cast a spell at the same potency as a C40
2. Viconia has 6 more low-level spells than Anomen from Levels 1 through 4. Eventual spell progression is
Viconia: 11/11/10/10/9/9/8 with WIS bonus and Holy Symbol Anomen: 11/11/9/9/9/9/8 with WIS bonus at WIS 16 after his knighthood and Holy Symbol
Unless the extra L3 and L4 is going to make a difference, they are functionally equally powerful. Victoria trades off APR for MR. That's about it.
I'd go with Anomen (preferably CN, if you don't mind sacrificing a few spells to get his awesome personality in return).
I may be biased because Anomen is my favourite NPC in BG2, but it can't be disputed that he's a fine Cleric with more than enough spells (even if CN) at all levels because he's almost single class. He'll also become great at Turning (destroying!) Undead. What distinguishes him from the rest, are his Fighter levels, allowing him to master his weapons, for example FoA and DoE, and to take full advantage of all the powerful buff spells to tranform him into a beast on the battlefield. It's true that he hasn't got Vicky's magic resistance, but with gear and spells such as Chaotic Commands, one can come a long way in protecting him well.
@jacobtan Ultimately, I think Jaheira's more powerful in the late game.
I'm inclined to agree.
Cleric spell access is better from L1-3, but druids start to close in by L4-6 (Woodland Beings, Insect Plague, Iron Skins, Fire Elemental), and they blow clerics away at L7-Quest (Nature's Beauty, Greater Elemental Summoning). Druids get all cleric HLAs plus Greater Elemental Summoning and at 3m XP, and they have 6 L7 slots, compared to a cleric who can only get his 6th L7 slot at L34 or 5.85m XP. That's a lot of L7 divine spells for the druid to play with while waiting for the poor cleric to catch up.
But clerics make life a lot easier at low through mid-high levels with Turn Undead, spells like Holy Smite, Animate Dead, etc. From my personal experience Animate Dead tends to be unreliable by TOB unless I'm fighting monsters who use mainly magic.
@SionIV I'm not sure #2 is true in any meaningful way. For example, I never once found Anomen lacking in my game.
Anomen has a very slightly slower progression (64k XP slower). But when we talk about mid-to-endgame effectiveness, probably not.
1. Viconia's spells are not more potent than Anomen's eventually because spell effects are capped at L20 unless you use a mod. A C20 will cast a spell at the same potency as a C40
2. Viconia has 6 more low-level spells than Anomen from Levels 1 through 4. Eventual spell progression is
Viconia: 11/11/10/10/9/9/8 with WIS bonus and Holy Symbol Anomen: 11/11/9/9/9/9/8 with WIS bonus at WIS 16 after his knighthood and Holy Symbol
Unless the extra L3 and L4 is going to make a difference, they are functionally equally powerful. Victoria trades off APR for MR. That's about it.
This is not even a question, Viconia is the better CASTER because she has a higher wisdom. This doesn't mean she is the better character.
People seem to have a hard time grasping that we're talking about a which is the better CLERIC. We're not talking about who is the better character or NPC. A F/M might be more powerful than Edwin because of the combination, but there is no question that Edwin is the more powerful MAGE.
I prefer to play with Viconia over Jaheira and Anomen because in my team setup and the way i play the game, those extra spells, the 19 DEX and that 65% MR does more for my party than either of Jaheira or Anomen do.
A pure class cleric will never be as powerful as a F/C when you look at the character as a whole. Just as a pure class druid will never be as powerful as a F/D. But even if Jaheira is the more powerful character, Cernd is the better druid because of his 18 wisdom and doesn't have to share XP.
If Viconia didn't have her 65% MR i would pick Anomen over her, the fact that she does have it make me pick her instead of Anomen. And 65% MR is exactly that good.
With all due respect, your argument falls flat. If you are talking about who is the better caster using Wisdom as the benchmark as you have mentioned, remember that all Viconia's Wisdom offers is just a few more low level spells.
Consider two guns. One is loaded with 6 bullets. The other is loaded with 5 bullets. In no way does this mean the first gun is "better" than the second gun. Both are the same model, fire the same bullets, and unless you are in a situation where the 6th bullet in the first gun is critical, one is as good as the other.
Similarly, from L20, both Viconia and Anomen cast spells at the same potency (spell effects capped at L20). Unless you are telling me that Anomen's 11/11/9/9/9/9/8 spell progression is not enough to beat a bunch of enemies, and you need Viconia's 11/11/10/10/9/9/8 spell progression to see you through (that additional L3 and L4 divine spell), there is no contest. Both are equally potent as clerics, and your argument is invalid.
To make it simple for you, if you can answer this with confidence, I rest my case:
By mid-to-lategame, will you EVER find yourself in a situation where you use up ALL of Viconia's spells?
With all due respect, your argument falls flat. If you are talking about who is the better caster using Wisdom as the benchmark as you have mentioned, remember that all Viconia's Wisdom offers is just a few more low level spells.
Consider two guns. One is loaded with 6 bullets. The other is loaded with 5 bullets. In no way does this mean the first gun is "better" than the second gun. Both are the same model, fire the same bullets, and unless you are in a situation where the 6th bullet in the first gun is critical, one is as good as the other.
Similarly, from L20, both Viconia and Anomen cast spells at the same potency (spell effects capped at L20). Unless you are telling me that Anomen's 11/11/9/9/9/9/8 spell progression is not enough to beat a bunch of enemies, and you need Viconia's 11/11/10/10/9/9/8 spell progression to see you through (that additional L3 and L4 divine spell), there is no contest. Both are equally potent as clerics, and your argument is invalid.
It doesn't matter if it's just a few spells, it's more spells than he can have. This makes her the better CASTER. How hard is this to understand? It's like saying Nalia is just as good mage as Edwin, because Edwin only gets a few extra spells.
Remove Anomes fighter levels, put them up against each other as a CLERIC.
They cast spells at the same level. Viconia got more spells.
1+1 = 2.
I'm not saying Viconia is the more powerful CHARACTER. I'm saying that she is the better CASTER/CLERIC.
It's like saying if Jaheira was dual classed instead of multi, she was just as good druid as Cernd. No because Jaheira got 14 WIS and Cernd got 18 WIS.
I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise, i don't feel that i need to.
@SionIV You're getting it already, now that you acknowledge it's just a few spells.
So... will those "extra" few spells make any meaningful contribution to any fight?
Those 'few spells' along with her superior DEX and 65% MR? Yes i'll pick her over him anyday. I don't need another fighter.
I used her in my last trilogy SCS no-reload run. Gave her the 3 WIS tomes in BG1 (i would have kept her even with 18 WIS) and she did her job amazingly. Threw the right gear on her to get her to 100% MR quickly and she pretty much soloed most of the hard mage fights.
I didn't need a fighter in my party, and she did a better job as a backline support character.
"Viconia is the better CASTER because she has a higher wisdom. This doesn't mean she is the better character."
So we talk about how Viconia's higher Wisdom makes her a better CASTER.
Then you started talking about her Dex and MR:
"Those 'few spells' along with her superior DEX and 65% MR? Yes i'll pick her over him anyday. I don't need another fighter."
From a discussion about how her Wisdom makes her a better CASTER, you moved the topic to how she is a better CHARACTER because of her superior DEX and 65% MR (since DEX and MR do not directly affect casting ability).
My discussion with you over Viconia ends here. Proof will be in the eye of the beholder
@jacobtan, in your original post you did specifically use the term 'divine caster', so in that sense I can follow @SionIV's answer that the best divine caster in your party would be Viconia, or even Cernd. This is raw spellcasting power, without taking other feats into account (innate abilities, resistances, fighting prowess). On the other hand jacobtan states that he attaches importance to fighting prowess (Melee/Ranged 20%). So from that perspective one could argue that trading in two midlevel spells and 65% magic resistance for clearly superior fighting power, would make Anomen the "better" Cleric (especially if you could protect him from mind and movement affecting magic).
@Blackraven Took the words out of my mind you did
I'm having a hard time planning because from my previous play patterns, the percentages are about how I use my divine casters. The ideal "divine caster" to me, is not necessarily the one with the most spells, but the one who can meet the specific needs that I outlined. Hence @SionIV and I argued to the death, though I found it fun.
I'm not writing off Viconia. But she tends to falter because I have that 20% melee/ranged requirement that Jaheira and Anomen fit in admirably. Aerie makes an even more potent buffer/debuffer/summoner, but falters a bit in melee/ranged so that evens out.
I also expect my Clerics to be decent fighters, just because it makes them more flexible in battle: you can have them cast spells (summons, heals) from the background if the siuation calls for it, or have them buff themselves and join the fight. Even in a party with three warriors, a thief, and a mage, I'd pick Anomen to have a fourth "fighter" (not taking any roleplaying preferences into account).
I agree with one of the earlier posters that Jaheira (if you can bear with her), is a great option as well, especially once Undead become less of an issue (late SoA and ToB).
Edit: As to your comment about Aerie, I've been wondering whether it would be possible to play a Cleric/Mage (with better stats than Aerie's) as a warrior type, using mostly buff spells and become an invincible champion on the battlefield.
@Blackraven Agreed. I dislike Jaheira (sorta like the mother or mother-in-law from Hell who harps on everything you do... she's a Harper/Harpy after all), but I recognize that clerics tend to start strong and falter later, but druids start weak and grow stronger, due to a favorable spell selection at L6/7 and a favorable spell progression, plus what you say, undead becoming less of an issue. All these factor in to make a druid more attractive.
Admittedly, from the various discussions here, including those with @SionIV, you and everyone, I'm trying to consider scenarios where every one of the divine casters tap into their unique abilities, then matching them up. I spend ages contemplating parties, and a lot less time playing actually.
1. Jaheira - swinging with two weapons as a DPS fighter 2. Anomen - swinging with a blunt weapon and a shield as a tank 3. Aerie - chaining cleric spells in sequencers and bombarding enemies 4. Viconia - 100% MR decoy (which was what I mentioned was possibly the best way to use her and which @SionIV confirmed with the SCS-no-reload attempt with Viconia) 5. Cernd - swinging as a greater werewolf (meh, but he warrants a review)
I also expect my Clerics to be decent fighters, just because it makes them more flexible in battle: you can have them cast spells (summons, heals) from the background if the siuation calls for it, or have them buff themselves and join the fight. Even in a party with three warriors, a thief, and a mage, I'd pick Anomen to have a fourth "fighter" (not taking any roleplaying preferences into account).
I agree with one of the earlier posters that Jaheira (if you can bare with her), is a great option as well, especially once Undead become less of an issue (late SoA and ToB).
Edit: As to your comment about Aerie, I've been wondering whether it would be possible to play a Cleric/Mage (with better stats than Aerie's) as a warrior type, using mostly buff spells and become an invincible champion on the battlefield.
Actually, she can. I have mulled over this option.
Holy Power + Enhanced Bard Song + Crom Faeyr/FoA (the 25 Str boosts THAC0 by 7 points which offsets the dual-wielding penalties of -2/-6 assuming 1 point) + bonus from Girdle of Fortitude + Improved Haste/Stoneskin/Mirror Image
BOOM! But DPS is still crimped due to the loss of APR. Nevertheless, Aerie will still do a much better job than Viconia in this capacity, since Viconia has no arcane self-buffs like Stoneskin/Mirror Image
The other major drawback is that she will be like a glass cannon. I'm not a big fan of clerical self-buffs on divine casters with merely semi-decent THAC0 because once they run out, or if you accidentally get dispelled (friendly fire or scripted dispel), you'll be trapped at the front line scrambling to recast the buffs, when you'll should be focusing on recasting the more important protections like Stoneskin and Mirror Image.
I think the list you just posted shows the best uses you can make of each of them. I'd have Anomen use two flails though (DoE is like a shield that you can swing at your enemies, maybe keep the Shield of Harmony close at hand against certain spellcasters) As to Cernd, BG2Tweaks unnerfs the Shapeshifter (who was simply implemented in a sloppy way). With it, you'llhave the best druidic spellcaster plus a pretty good fighter. For the Greater Werewolf: THAC0 6, Saves 1/1/1/2/1, base elemental resistance of 50%, base magic resistance of 40%, immunity to normal weapons, Paw is +3 weapon that deals 2d8 slashing damage, regeneration of 3 HP per second.
I think the list you just posted shows the best uses you can make of each of them. I'd have Anomen use two flails though (DoE is like a shield that you can swing at your enemies, maybe keep the Shield of Harmony close at hand against certain spellcasters) As to Cernd, BG2Tweaks unnerfs the Shapeshifter (who was simply implemented in a sloppy way). With it, you'llhave the best druidic spellcaster plus a pretty good fighter. For the Greater Werewolf: THAC0 6, Saves 1/1/1/2/1, base elemental resistance of 50%, base magic resistance of 40%, immunity to normal weapons, Paw is +3 weapon that deals 2d8 slashing damage, regeneration of 3 HP per second.
Yeah... most of the players here seem like veterans to me and hence we have probably fiddled the game from inside out. I'll most certainly agree that DoE is a better weapon in TOB when AC starts to become useless (that, plus the fact that clerics have no stone/iron skin, discounts the awesomeness of Viconia's Dex :P). The last time I used Anomen I experimented with the BMU on him and it didn't work out well in practice, confirming the theoretical figures. (Melissan probably has at least -10 THAC0 and even the max AC of -26 will mean she can hit on a 16 and above on 1d20, or 25%... ugh).
I wouldn't mind having Cernd actually. I don't like the guy (though he has some pretty b****y lines), but I could try to use him if he's useful.
Shapeshifter wasn't itself so much implemented in a sloppy way as shapeshifting itself was. The greater werewolf form is actually pretty good for SoA because druids have access to Chaotic Commands and Death Ward (eliminating a host of status effects they face). The problem with them really is they just didn't improve the form for ToB levels. Next to the Blades Defensive Spin the Greater Werewolf form is probably the least item demanding way of getting high strength/dexterity, AC of less than -10, 40% magic resistance, and 50% elemental resistances. To tie this a bit into the thread its probably Cernd's biggest selling point (before level 15 at least). That and access to Nature's Beauty long before Jaheira.
Now I'm trying to think if the unnerfed Greater Werewolf is viable for TOB... how to milk the most out of this class, how to micromanage the team...
Though I'd say that since i"m running with three F/Ms of various stripes up front, even if Cernd remains behind as a human casting spells, I'm not too bothered as long as I can maneuver him out of harm's way.
If Cernd can cast spells while shapeshifted I'll take him over Jaheira in a heartbeat.
My no-reload SCS charname has just awoken in Chateau Irenicus, I think I'll have him literally "use" (he's a devious little bugger) some of the unpopular NPCs like Cernd.
It's true that as the game develops physical resistance becomes more important. AC should nevertheless always be as low as possible, which is why I don't tend to have both Keldorn and Anomen in one party. Ideally you have a heavily armoured Anomen with the Gaunts of Dex + Armour of Faith + DoE to make him last in battle.
Comments
2.) Viconia is graded highly because the weakness she has (STR/CON) can all be taken care of very early on in the game. She can even improve on them herself with DuHM, something Cernd and Jaheira can't.
3.) I do love druids and enjoy playing them, but having one or two amazing spells doesn't make their spell list better than the cleric. This is opinion based so i'm not saying you're wrong, just saying we rate and value spells differently.
4.) It's still a nice bonus, try making a C/M with 19/21 (tomes from BG) and you'll have enough lore to never need to use an identify spell. I personally love Lore.
If you would give her 65% MR to anyone else, that person would have been the best in their category. Minsc would have been better than Valygar. Mazzy would be better than Korgan, Korgan would be better than Sarevok. It is that powerful.
I'm enjoying this actually. Instead of running conflicting arguments with my mind I'm running arguments with others. If I can defend a position with reasonable grounds it will mean the argument has more merit.
I'm cool with #1. MR is Viconia's unique advantage, and should remain so. #3 is also subjective, but I'm more offensive (in ways more than one LOL)
2. Actually, I beg to differ. Whatever Str/Con she can boost herself with, so can Cernd and Jaheira. For DUHM, I'd say she will outclass Cernd in combat ability and AC, but all the AC in the world cannot save her from a physical hit the way that an Iron Skin can. No matter how low she can get her AC to, any natural roll of 20 is an automatic hit on her.
And for the comparison with Jaheira, Jaheira has the THAC0 of a fighter which is better than Viconia's. Viconia may swing for more damage per hit with DUHM, but Jaheira has multiple attacks (2.5x Viconia's). Like you say, a 19 Str belt can be obtained fairly easily. If we're talking about physical damage, Jaheira will always outclass Viconia.
And if you're not using Viconia to do physical damage... probably the belt should be worn by another who can, thus weakening your point. And again, Jaheira can buff herself with Iron Skins. Viconia will get hit pretty frequently.
4. Clerics only get 1 Lore per level. At 18 Wis and 16 Int, Viconia has a +15 bonus max. L40 cleric with 15 Lore bonus comes to only 55 Lore. Even Aerie can reach 55 Lore when she gets to L15 as a mage (15x3=45+10 from stats). There is no point counting this bonus when it's eventually inconsequential
2.) Viconia can get 24/24/23 with DuHM, Cernd and Jaheira can't even get close to this. Having that high stats doesn't really matter, especially not to a pure cleric like Viconia, but it's possible.
3.) I agree fully that Jaheira is better in close combat as a F/D.
4.) There are so many items that grant you Strength that it doesn't matter. You can give her the mace from cooper coronet to improve her Strength to 18. Then you got 3 belts, 1 pair of gauntlets and Angurvadale (?) that will also boost your strength. It shouldn't be a problem to give her one of these items, and she can boost her STR up to 18 by spells.
5.) I'm not trying to say that those +5 lore she gets from her intellect score will make much of a difference, but it's a nice thing to have. The reason i'm adding it is because she is one of the few NPC's that can actually identify stuff with her lore from the start. Even if it's only stuff like short sword +1 and arrows, it's still something that will save a little bit of money.
1. Cernd can cast Iron Skins too. But my question is, if Viconia's MR is so amazing, and she has to stay in the back where she is hit far less often with spells... Awesome ability, but less relevant as it could be because she'll be at the back. An ability which cannot be used readily should score less, since it will be used less often
2. First, I notice you said Viconia's Str/Con can be taken care of early in the game. But DUHM only adds 1 Str/Dex/Con per three levels. To get the full +6 bonus, she has to be at least L18. I don't consider L18 "early in the game" at all, so you may need to revise your assessment.
3. There will be many items that grant strength, but they often come late:
- Girdle of Hill Giant Strength - Athkatla in Ch.2
- Girdle of Stone Giant Strength - Suldanessellar in Ch.6
- Girdle of Frost Giant Strength - Underdark in Ch.5
- Girdle of Fire Giant Strength - Fire Giant Temple in TOB
- Gauntlets of Ogre Power - Planar Sphere in Ch.2, assuming you do it in Ch.2
- Angurvadal - TOB after obtaining items
- Mauler's Arm - Athkatla in Ch.2
Only the Girdle of Hill Giant Strength and Gauntlets of Ogre Power are readily accessible (pre-Spellhold). Until then, Viconia will have no love. She can use the Mauler's Arm, but it only grants a Strength bonus when equipped, so she'll suck in slings early game, unless you want her at the front lines.
The point of highlighting this is that your statement that "Viconia's Str/Con can be taken care of early in the game" is not as straightforward as it looks, since it's pretty conditional.
4. Doesn't matter at all. If you play cheap.
Highest-level Viconia spawn in SOA Government District is 1.2m XP, which is L13. That means she has a Lore of 13+15=28. If you can get Viconia at 1.2m, you can also get Jan at 1.2m XP (since they spawn in the same area). Jan will be a L12 thief. Total Lore is 12x3+5=41 which is much higher than Viconia. Just recruit Jan, get him to look at all your items, and boot him :P
And nobody says you can't recruit Jan, get him to memorize all the Identify spells he can, identify your items, then kick him out. Poor turnip guy
Even if you are unable to recruit and dismiss him frequently, if you are playing a Thief or Mage PC, you should be able to overtake Viconia in Lore as long as one of the classes is at L10, not counting Lore bonuses from Int/Wis. Or if you are importing a powerful character, it's also possible. Even if you can't DIY for identification, most items don't require identification to use, especially for many veterans with metagaming knowledge... you only need to identify them when you are selling them
I know I might have sounded argumentative, but in the interest of sound reasoning, it can be healthy to debate.
The fact remains that the one single advantage where Viconia is clearly superior compared to all other divine casters is her MR. All her other alleged advantages over other divine casters are debatable (Druid vs Cleric), count for very little (e.g. 18 Wis, Lore bonus), or are conditional (e.g. stats from DUHM, a spell that lasts merely 1 turn).
She is not even a "better divine caster" because spell effects are capped at L20 (so all the divine casters can cast at same effectiveness eventually) and clerics reach max spell progression at L38 so Anomen gets it too since his max level is F7/C39. A few more memorizations of inconsequential low level spells do not a better caster make.
If we look at her objectively as a character, it's difficult to conclude that she is decidedly more powerful than other divine casters. To make the best use of her, it probably has to come down to how to leverage her MR (boosting her to 100% MR with items and boots of speed, then drawing spell attacks on herself, etc.). Otherwise, she brings relatively little to the table other than her sex appeal.
- Viconias MR is amazing.
- Viconia is a better divine SPELL CASTER than the other options.
- Cleric Vs Druid is opinion based, we all value them differently.
1. Viconia's spells are not more potent than Anomen's eventually because spell effects are capped at L20 unless you use a mod. A C20 will cast a spell at the same potency as a C40
2. Viconia has 6 more low-level spells than Anomen from Levels 1 through 4. Eventual spell progression is
Viconia: 11/11/10/10/9/9/8 with WIS bonus and Holy Symbol
Anomen: 11/11/9/9/9/9/8 with WIS bonus at WIS 16 after his knighthood and Holy Symbol
Unless the extra L3 and L4 is going to make a difference, they are functionally equally powerful. Victoria trades off APR for MR. That's about it.
I may be biased because Anomen is my favourite NPC in BG2, but it can't be disputed that he's a fine Cleric with more than enough spells (even if CN) at all levels because he's almost single class. He'll also become great at Turning (destroying!) Undead.
What distinguishes him from the rest, are his Fighter levels, allowing him to master his weapons, for example FoA and DoE, and to take full advantage of all the powerful buff spells to tranform him into a beast on the battlefield.
It's true that he hasn't got Vicky's magic resistance, but with gear and spells such as Chaotic Commands, one can come a long way in protecting him well.
1. Buffing
2. Healing
3. Melee/Ranged
4. Debuffing
5. Summoning
Still hearing arguments. Thanks all for contributing!
@jacobtan Ultimately, I think Jaheira's more powerful in the late game.
Cleric spell access is better from L1-3, but druids start to close in by L4-6 (Woodland Beings, Insect Plague, Iron Skins, Fire Elemental), and they blow clerics away at L7-Quest (Nature's Beauty, Greater Elemental Summoning). Druids get all cleric HLAs plus Greater Elemental Summoning and at 3m XP, and they have 6 L7 slots, compared to a cleric who can only get his 6th L7 slot at L34 or 5.85m XP. That's a lot of L7 divine spells for the druid to play with while waiting for the poor cleric to catch up.
But clerics make life a lot easier at low through mid-high levels with Turn Undead, spells like Holy Smite, Animate Dead, etc. From my personal experience Animate Dead tends to be unreliable by TOB unless I'm fighting monsters who use mainly magic.
People seem to have a hard time grasping that we're talking about a which is the better CLERIC. We're not talking about who is the better character or NPC. A F/M might be more powerful than Edwin because of the combination, but there is no question that Edwin is the more powerful MAGE.
I prefer to play with Viconia over Jaheira and Anomen because in my team setup and the way i play the game, those extra spells, the 19 DEX and that 65% MR does more for my party than either of Jaheira or Anomen do.
A pure class cleric will never be as powerful as a F/C when you look at the character as a whole. Just as a pure class druid will never be as powerful as a F/D. But even if Jaheira is the more powerful character, Cernd is the better druid because of his 18 wisdom and doesn't have to share XP.
If Viconia didn't have her 65% MR i would pick Anomen over her, the fact that she does have it make me pick her instead of Anomen. And 65% MR is exactly that good.
With all due respect, your argument falls flat. If you are talking about who is the better caster using Wisdom as the benchmark as you have mentioned, remember that all Viconia's Wisdom offers is just a few more low level spells.
Consider two guns. One is loaded with 6 bullets. The other is loaded with 5 bullets. In no way does this mean the first gun is "better" than the second gun. Both are the same model, fire the same bullets, and unless you are in a situation where the 6th bullet in the first gun is critical, one is as good as the other.
Similarly, from L20, both Viconia and Anomen cast spells at the same potency (spell effects capped at L20). Unless you are telling me that Anomen's 11/11/9/9/9/9/8 spell progression is not enough to beat a bunch of enemies, and you need Viconia's 11/11/10/10/9/9/8 spell progression to see you through (that additional L3 and L4 divine spell), there is no contest. Both are equally potent as clerics, and your argument is invalid.
To make it simple for you, if you can answer this with confidence, I rest my case:
By mid-to-lategame, will you EVER find yourself in a situation where you use up ALL of Viconia's spells?
Remove Anomes fighter levels, put them up against each other as a CLERIC.
They cast spells at the same level.
Viconia got more spells.
1+1 = 2.
I'm not saying Viconia is the more powerful CHARACTER. I'm saying that she is the better CASTER/CLERIC.
It's like saying if Jaheira was dual classed instead of multi, she was just as good druid as Cernd. No because Jaheira got 14 WIS and Cernd got 18 WIS.
I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise, i don't feel that i need to.
So... will those "extra" few spells make any meaningful contribution to any fight by mid-to-lategame?
I used her in my last trilogy SCS no-reload run. Gave her the 3 WIS tomes in BG1 (i would have kept her even with 18 WIS) and she did her job amazingly. Threw the right gear on her to get her to 100% MR quickly and she pretty much soloed most of the hard mage fights.
I didn't need a fighter in my party, and she did a better job as a backline support character.
"Viconia is the better CASTER because she has a higher wisdom. This doesn't mean she is the better character."
So we talk about how Viconia's higher Wisdom makes her a better CASTER.
Then you started talking about her Dex and MR:
"Those 'few spells' along with her superior DEX and 65% MR? Yes i'll pick her over him anyday. I don't need another fighter."
From a discussion about how her Wisdom makes her a better CASTER, you moved the topic to how she is a better CHARACTER because of her superior DEX and 65% MR (since DEX and MR do not directly affect casting ability).
My discussion with you over Viconia ends here. Proof will be in the eye of the beholder
On the other hand jacobtan states that he attaches importance to fighting prowess (Melee/Ranged 20%). So from that perspective one could argue that trading in two midlevel spells and 65% magic resistance for clearly superior fighting power, would make Anomen the "better" Cleric (especially if you could protect him from mind and movement affecting magic).
I'm having a hard time planning because from my previous play patterns, the percentages are about how I use my divine casters. The ideal "divine caster" to me, is not necessarily the one with the most spells, but the one who can meet the specific needs that I outlined. Hence @SionIV and I argued to the death, though I found it fun.
I'm not writing off Viconia. But she tends to falter because I have that 20% melee/ranged requirement that Jaheira and Anomen fit in admirably. Aerie makes an even more potent buffer/debuffer/summoner, but falters a bit in melee/ranged so that evens out.
I agree with one of the earlier posters that Jaheira (if you can bear with her), is a great option as well, especially once Undead become less of an issue (late SoA and ToB).
Edit: As to your comment about Aerie, I've been wondering whether it would be possible to play a Cleric/Mage (with better stats than Aerie's) as a warrior type, using mostly buff spells and become an invincible champion on the battlefield.
Admittedly, from the various discussions here, including those with @SionIV, you and everyone, I'm trying to consider scenarios where every one of the divine casters tap into their unique abilities, then matching them up. I spend ages contemplating parties, and a lot less time playing actually.
1. Jaheira - swinging with two weapons as a DPS fighter
2. Anomen - swinging with a blunt weapon and a shield as a tank
3. Aerie - chaining cleric spells in sequencers and bombarding enemies
4. Viconia - 100% MR decoy (which was what I mentioned was possibly the best way to use her and which @SionIV confirmed with the SCS-no-reload attempt with Viconia)
5. Cernd - swinging as a greater werewolf (meh, but he warrants a review)
Holy Power + Enhanced Bard Song + Crom Faeyr/FoA (the 25 Str boosts THAC0 by 7 points which offsets the dual-wielding penalties of -2/-6 assuming 1 point) + bonus from Girdle of Fortitude + Improved Haste/Stoneskin/Mirror Image
BOOM! But DPS is still crimped due to the loss of APR. Nevertheless, Aerie will still do a much better job than Viconia in this capacity, since Viconia has no arcane self-buffs like Stoneskin/Mirror Image
The other major drawback is that she will be like a glass cannon. I'm not a big fan of clerical self-buffs on divine casters with merely semi-decent THAC0 because once they run out, or if you accidentally get dispelled (friendly fire or scripted dispel), you'll be trapped at the front line scrambling to recast the buffs, when you'll should be focusing on recasting the more important protections like Stoneskin and Mirror Image.
I think the list you just posted shows the best uses you can make of each of them.
I'd have Anomen use two flails though (DoE is like a shield that you can swing at your enemies, maybe keep the Shield of Harmony close at hand against certain spellcasters)
As to Cernd, BG2Tweaks unnerfs the Shapeshifter (who was simply implemented in a sloppy way). With it, you'llhave the best druidic spellcaster plus a pretty good fighter. For the Greater Werewolf: THAC0 6, Saves 1/1/1/2/1, base elemental resistance of 50%, base magic resistance of 40%, immunity to normal weapons, Paw is +3 weapon that deals 2d8 slashing damage, regeneration of 3 HP per second.
I wouldn't mind having Cernd actually. I don't like the guy (though he has some pretty b****y lines), but I could try to use him if he's useful.
Though I'd say that since i"m running with three F/Ms of various stripes up front, even if Cernd remains behind as a human casting spells, I'm not too bothered as long as I can maneuver him out of harm's way.
If Cernd can cast spells while shapeshifted I'll take him over Jaheira in a heartbeat.
It's true that as the game develops physical resistance becomes more important.
AC should nevertheless always be as low as possible, which is why I don't tend to have both Keldorn and Anomen in one party. Ideally you have a heavily armoured Anomen with the Gaunts of Dex + Armour of Faith + DoE to make him last in battle.