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Meagloth's Alignment Test

meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
edited April 2014 in Off-Topic
Ok, so the the alignment, class and race sections are finished, but stats are harder to do in pen and paper. If anyone knows how I could get this online that'd be great. In order to score this you get a piece of paper and make a chart that looks like this:

1.
2.
3.

4.
5.
6.

7.
8.
9.

And make mark an x next to the number corresponding to the answer to the question. Do the same with the letters for class:
A.
Z.
X.
E.
F.
I.
Y.
H.
J.
G.

And then for race:
W.
F.
K.
X.
H.
S.
V.

Test:


The ultimate goal of life is to: (1)help those less fortunate (2)be content with what you have (3)Win.

Is it better to be: (1)loved (2)known for who you really are (3)feared

Is it important to let everyone have a second chance? (1)yes (2)sometimes (3)no

Laws: (4)are usually unnecessary (5)are generally helpful, but I don't follow all of them (6)are a necessary and integral part of society

You and your friends are chased by a bear, to stay alive you: (1)defend yourself and your friends (2)run faster than the guy behind you (3) throw the other guy to the bear.

The best use of wealth is: (1) to help those less fortunate (2) Buying things(3) gain more wealth

The suffering of others: (1) should be stopped(2)happens (3)can be used to my advantage

I have the most fun: (6)with my friends, doing something organized and/or familiar (5) with people I like (4) doing something new and interesting

The country is being invaded by Belgium. You: (6)do what you can to aid the war effort(5)run away as soon as things look grim (4)cut a deal with Belgium an spy.

I admire someone who:(6)champions the law (5)works with the law(4)boldly defies the law

You are in the position to deal justice to the person who murdered your beloved. You have him at gun point and he has surrendered. He apologizes,You: (7) tell him that he is forgiven. (8) tell him he is a despicable person, and demand the heaviest possible punishment. (9) torture him for a while until he finally croaks

A man that put you In Prison for a crime you didn't do confronts you. He apologizes, and say that the only way he can feel better is for you to take this $5000. You have been quite successful, despite your stay In Prison, and you have no need of $5000. You: (7) take the money, but slip it back to him in the night. (8) take the money (9) refuse the money, though he insists.

A hoard of barbarians invade a village you are staying at. You: (1)investigate the cause, try to reason with the leader (2)run away. (3)use the chaos to sack the village

robbers are invading your home for a prize diamond. You: (7) give them the diamond. (8) fight back (9) throw the diamond into the sea

Someone has legally obtain possession of your favorite painting. You: (7) let it go, you can still get a print, and he he must really want it if he fought hard in court to get it. (8) try to steal it back without getting caught, despite it being very risky (9) deface the painting. If you can't have it, no one can.

Someone takes your cookie out of the office fridge. You: (1) get over it (2)stop using the office fridge for cookies (3) take a yogurt out

You see that the person next to you is cheating on their test. You: (6) notify your teacher (5)do nothing (4) try to get the cheat sheet away from him.

You're offered a $100 bribe to fix a second grade soccer match. You: (6) notify the coaches (5) refuse, but don't mention it (4) agree. Its just a 2nd grade soccer match....

Is it ever ok to lie? (6)only very rarely (5)sometimes (4)of course

Which personality trait is the most valuable? (1)compassion (2)patience (3)ruthlessness

What is more important? (1)doing the "right" thing (2)doing the "correct" thing (3)doing the "best" thing

What is the most valuable thing on this list? (1)moral and ethical success (2)social success (3)financial success

Which statement best describes humanity? (1)a imperfect beauty (2)it is what it is (3)a thing to be exploited

{class}In high school I was a: (A)jock (Z)outdoorsy kid (X)Boy Scout (E)the clever prankster (F)environmentalist (I)nerd (Y)dreamy idealist (G)youth group kid (H)something else..... (J)martial arts kid

My friends say I'm: (A)strong and athletic (Z)outdoorsy and adventurous (X)a bit self righteous, but charismatic (E)clever and tricksy (F)a bit... "Hippie" (I)bookish and well learned (Y)friendly and creative (G)devoted to my religion (H)batsh*t crazy (J)tough, disciplined, and religious

If I could have a superpower it would be:(A)incredible strength (Z)incredible durability/toughness (X)flight (E)incredible stealth (F)ability to talk at animals (I)incredibly intelligence (Y)incredible physical beauty (G)incredible wisdom (H)incredible influence over people (J)incredible quickness and fighting ability

My best quality is my:(A)physical strength (Z)physical durability (X)righteousness (E)skill with mechanical things (Y)people skills (I)intellect (J)discipline (G)faith (H)sense of humor (F)love of nature

My dream job is: (A)star athlete(Z)park ranger/mountain climber (X)politician/law enforcement (E)inventor/mechanic (F)environmental activist (I)academic/scientist (H)entrepreneur/business manager (Y)artist/media personality (G)spiritual leader (J)martial artist

If I was in I fight I would use a(assuming they are all equally effective): (A)sword(Z)big stick (X)hit very hard with the sword of righteousness! (E)a very sharp wit (F)something with thorns (I)running (Y)smile and calm words (G)reason and perspective (H)sheer force of will! and maybe a little running (J)punches and kicks

I would rather watch: (A)ESPN (Z)nature documentary(X)cable news (E)Comedy (F)the Inconvenient truth (I)science documentary (Y)the newest music videos (H)a psychology documentary (J)nothing (this is NOT none of the above)

It is better to be: (A)strong (Z)tough (X)righteous (E)quick (F)natural (I)smart (Y)well liked (G)wise (H)unique (J)disciplined

My favorite clothes to wear everyday are: (A)camo vests and cargo pants (Z)something practical, neutral colored, quiet (X)snazzy suites (E)something nondescript with lots of pockets (F)environmentally friendly, fair trade clothing. (I)jacket and bow tie(Y)whatever's in Style, I am very chick (G)modest, reasonable clothing (H)ROBES! bright, shiny robes! Or whatever's clean.... (J)practical, comfortable clothes, I don't care how I look.

The outdoors should be: (+F)protected from human development entirely (-[no effect]) used responsibly and enjoyed (-F) destroyed. Burn baby burn!

If I witnessed a mugging, I would: (X)jump in and save the victim (-)call the authorities (-X)run away

If provided with the opportunity to learn a new martial art, I: (A) gladly accept! I'm always learning new ways to defend myself. (-)accept, but only cause it's free and my friend wanted me to. (-A) decline. Learning to fight just isn't practical.

My friends are going on a hike and invite me to come. I: (Z)offer to lead the hike, and point out interesting natural features. (-)agree to come along. It'll be fun. (-Z)decline. I hate hiking, and the outdoors in general.

There is a talk being given in town on a new astrophysics concept. I would: (I)definitely go. I love science. (-)look into it. I might go if I'm not doing anything else. (-I)not even consider going. Science is boring.

Which statement best describes you: (E)I often hear, "oh! I hadn't realized you where there. (-)I'm not particularly stealthy (-E)I cannot hide. When I try to sneak up on my friends, they laugh at me without even looking over their shoulders.

I am: (G)very religious. My faith permeates every area of my life. (-)not particularly spiritual, but I respect religion and maybe sometimes go to church/mass or whatever is the norm (-G)I find the Idea of god ridiculous.

I am: (H)incredibly weird and unique. I. am. *special*. (-)just as unique as the next guy. Everybody's different (-H)completely normal.

I play a musical instrument: (Y)very well (-)I took some music classes in school, but I never took it father than that. (-Y)I can not carry a tune in a bucket.

I am: (J)a skilled, devoted, disciplined martial artist. (-)I took some karate as a kid... (-J)when my friends jokingly hit me, I crumple up into a ball and prepare for the end.

How important is it to be strong? (A)incredibly (-)not a huge priority, but it's important to stay fit (-A)not very

Is it helpful to get into the outdoors a lot?(Z)very, it should be done regularly (-)it can be helpful (-Z)not super important

Fid you ever consider a career in law enforcement? (X)I am/intend to be (-)it may have crossed my mind, but not really (-X)I could never do that

Fo you have good finger dexterity? (E)very good (-)about average (-EI am quite the butterfingers

Is it important to be funny? (H)very (-)it's ok (-H)not at all

Do you believe in your principles strongly? (G)very, very strongly (-)I believe what I know (-)I easily accept new ideas

Would it be nice to spend I night outdoors without a cot or tent? (F)yes (-)maybe if it wasn't cold (-F)that sounds disgusting

How important is music to a happy life? (Y)very (-)it helps some (-Y)it isn't necessary

Are you interested in science and history? (I)very (-)sometimes (-I)not at all

Is there any benefit to regular meditation? (J)definitely (-)maybe occasionally (-J)probably not.

{race}When it comes to build I am: (W)tall and extremely skinny (F) a bit taller and skinnier than average, but nothing special. (K) average (X) shorter than average, but average build otherwise. (H) short and a bit plump (S) short and skinny (V) very large. I am taller and heavier than average

My strongest characteristic is my: (S) intellect (V) general physical ability (H) skill with my hands, fine motor skill. I am a (K)nothing in particular (F)I don't have any specialty, but I seem to be good at everything I try (X) my toughness. I can take some punches, and some beers. (W) my likability/ appearance

People describe my facial features as: (H) friendly and a little cherubic (V) broad, muscular and tough looking. Actually a bit ugly, according to some people (K) nothing special, really. Just average. (W)pointed and devilish. foxy. (F) not particularly striking, but i think I'm prettier than most.

It is better to be: (S) smart (-S) wise

It is better have: (H)finger dexterity (-H)physical strength

What are you better at? (W)large motor skill (H)fine motor skill

It is better to be: (X)(-S)tough (-X)(S)quick

It's better to be: (V)strong and tough (-V) wise and intelligent

Its better to be: (K)Normal (-)different

It's better to: (F)have a specialty (-F) do everything alright

It's better to be a: (K) jack of all trades (-K) be a specialist.

When you finish that you can look at the key:

1-good
2-neutral
3-evil

4-chaotic
5-neutral
6-lawful

7-forgiving
8-vengeful
9-spiteful

A-fighter
Z-ranger
X-paladin
Y-bard
E-thief
F-Druid
G-cleric
H-sorcerer
I-Mage
J-monk

K-human
F-half elf
W-elf
S-gnome
Z-halfling
X-dwarf
V-half Orc


*sorry, but there was a thread merge against my will, and this has gotten a bit confusing.*

This is the beginning of the thread that was merged:
As you all know, the d&d alignment system, while intriguing, has some holes. It is two dimensional. There is the dimension of law and chaos, and the plane of good and evil. These combine to form the alignments we all know and love. But then there is always that person that defies alignment, that friend you can't quite shove into one of our nine boxes. What then? Even in the game there are characters that have the label of "true neutral" slapped onto them because they don't exhibit any characteristics of the alignments. They seem to have no opinion. Yoshimo and Skie come to mind, and Garrick with his unconvincing chaotic neutral.

The current system is flat, and this is an easy fix, that anyone who doesn't like can ignore. We simply add a third dimension. At this point it get more complicated, however. What shall this axis be? After a few bad ideas, and an embarrassing number of worse ones, I came out with forgiving to spiteful, with vengeful in the middle. Forgiveness is a common concept, but the idea of spite could take some explaining here. Spite, in this case, means that you are willing to cause pain to someone else, just to harm them, even at no benefit, or even at cost to themselves. Examples would be defacing a painting so that your enemy can't have it, or throwing a diamond into the sea to keep it from thieves. The "If I can't have it, nobody can!" Mentality.

These are the 5 questions I have in my alignment test to determine spite vs. forgiveness.
You are in the position to deal justice to the person who murdered your beloved. You have him at gun point and he has surrendered. You: (F) tell him that he is forgiven. (V) tell him he is a despicable person, and demand the heaviest possible punishment. (S) torture him for a while until he finally croaks

A man that put you In Prison for a crime you didn't do confronts you. He apologizes, and say that the only way he can feel better is for you to take this $5000. You have been quite successful, despite your stay In Prison, and you have no need of $5000. It's clearly the mans entire savings. You: (F) take the money, but slip it back to him in the night. (V) take the money (S) refuse the money, though he insists.

A hoard of barbarians invade a village you are staying at. You: (F) investigate the cause, try to reason with the leader (V)smite them. (S) use the chaos to sack the village
Robbers are invading your home for a prize diamond. You: (F) give them the diamond. Better it than you (V) fight back (S) throw the diamond into the sea

Someone has legally obtain possession of your favorite painting. You: (F) let it go, you can still get a print, and he he must really want it if he fought hard in court to get it. (V) try to steal it back without getting caught, despite it being very risky (S) deface the painting. If you can't have it, no one can.


Some examples of the sticky ones like "forgiving neutral evil" and "spiteful lawful good":
Currently, an evil character is a self-serving jackass. This spectrum separates the "self-serving" and the "jackass", so a forgiving evil character would be able to forget a persons past actions if it came as a benefited to them. They simply look out for their own interests, regardless of how they get what they want.
"Spiteful good" would probably be what we now call "lawful stupid", or close to it. Someone who is usual selfless and helpful, but an all-around dick and asshole. I would imagine this character is probably very rare, but that's what the said about true neutral.

While this would cause more controversy, I wish we had a better axis than good to evil. This spectrum is incepredibly bias and judgmental, and difficult to get right. I like law v. chaos a lot because it's very neutral. Few people are going to accuse you of being "chaotic" or "lawful". Good and evil is a different story. My system clearly doesn't fix this; most people would like to be able to say they are forgiving, and no one wants to be spiteful, really. It's a little less judgmental, but it's still pretty high and mighty.
My system clearly has it's drawbacks, and the option I provide is by no means perfect. Please share your thoughts and ideas.(no really, I mean it. I want to steal you ideas.)

I also considered putting "vengeance" at the end and neutral in the middle, but it don't know about that.

Post edited by meagloth on
lolien
«1

Comments

  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    edited February 2014
    So, after taking a few alignment test over time, I noticed that due to the different interpretations of the alignment system most of the tests are in some way (according to me) flawed. A little while ago I showed my favorite to my friends, and was, frankly surprised by the interest it generated from my non-Baldurs Gate playing, non d&d-understanding friends. And so, I have taken it upon myself to creat my own alignment test, so that I could see where me mates lie on my version of the system. It's nothin complicated, just pen and paper, no internet buttons. (Though I may try that later) I am making it so that each question has three answers, either on the chaotic->lawful scale! or the good->evil scale. As you answer the questions, (ideally, someone else) marks down your answer by giving you a checkmark in either lawful, neutral, good, ect. Ant then you put them together. And get the alignment by the most in the spectrum. So if you score highest in good, and lawful, then you are lawful good, even though there will be likely chef marks in every category.
    What I ask of you is just a little help. I wanted about 30-40 questions, which turns out to be a lot. So if you have any interesting questions to share, then that is welcome. Discussion about the questions would also be fun.

    Here's what I have so far: (yes I know the superhero one is a big iffy. Any suggestions for neutral superheroes?)

    1. I am a: (G)good person (N) generally neutral person (E)a despicable person.

    2. Laws: (C)get in my way (N)are generally helpful, but I don't follow all of them (L)are a necessary part of society

    3.To be successful in life, one must: (G)work well with people and take opportunities (L)do better than everyone else (E)crush those less than you.

    4. You and your friends are chased by a bear, to stay alive you: (G)defend yourself and your friends (N)run faster than the guy behind you (E) throw the other guy to the bear.

    5. The best use of wealth is: (G) to help those less fortunate (N) To benefit yourself and those you love (E) personal gain and power

    6. Pain: (G) is unfortunate (N) happens (E) is fun to watch

    7. My preferred superhero is: (L) superman (N) nick fury(eyepatch guy) (C) batman

    8. Life is about: (L)finding order and reason (N) life is. The reason hardly matters (C) experiencing things

    9. I have the most fun: (L)with my friends, doing something organized and/or familiar (N) with people I like (C) doing something new and interesting

    10. The primary function of (perfect) government is to: (L) advance society (N) better peoples' lives (C) better my life

    Post edited by meagloth on
    lolien
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    jackjack said:

    You misspelled your own name :P

    Dur..dur...dur... Me so smart. Aaaannd... It's gone :)

    @belgarathMTH, yea, there not very subtle. I was just starting it of slow, and now I'm trying to think of some less obvious ones. I'm not taking this to seriously, despite an interest in psychology, I am no psychologist, and this is no study. At best, it is a loose frame for how someone thinks of himself. The alignment system is fundamentally flawed at many levels, it shouldn't be taken to seriously, for certain. Thank for the great suggestions though.

    BelgarathMTHCrevsDaakAristilliuslolien
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    I don't like any of these superheroes. :|

    Kamigoroshi
  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    10 should have a "not exist" option

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747



    And, all of this is in service of the question "What is my actual alignment in real life, in D&D terms, which I would be presumed to express, had I been born into the world of D&D?"

    This is impossible to tell either way. Let's say you are a pastor in real life. Your result "what D&D class am I?" would likely be a cleric. Now, would you be the same person if you were a cleric who has actual powers granted directly by your deity? Can you even truly be the same person if you lost your "blind" faith in a higher power that is disputed by other religions and sometimes science? Speaking of which, if we translate a real world scientist to D&D, that would likely be a mage. Is the scientist still the same person in a world where religion is a very real thing, or intelligence and research have shortcuts like magic potions that make you smarter? Could that person deal with instantly going from "pretty damn smart" to "utter genius"? Genius isn't the easiest thing to live with. And I rather don't think about celebrities - aka bards - having arcane power...



    And, I think that any good psychologist would ask, "How is this test helping people? Do we have treatments in mind for pathologies that emerge? What do we gain by testing an individual patient as "chaotic evil"? Surely it is not helpful to diagnose those with psychological or psychiatric pathologies as "evil"?"

    Actually, a certain Dr. Stone has done exactly that - categorized serial killers on his "scale of evil". No fancy scientific term, "evil". It considers various factors that determine why Charles Manson is less evil than Ted Bundy and such. As far as I can tell, it was done "for the lulz", with no actual use.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_Evil (Most of season 1 and some of season 2 is on YouTube)

    BelgarathMTHbooinyoureyesjackjackAristillius
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806

    I don't like any of these superheroes. :|

    I know, I don't really either. I mentioned before that it's a very weak question.

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,455
    @KidCarnival, wow, I'm impressed. That was a very insightful response. I've often thought about some of those same questions you bring up, with the pastor-as-cleric, and scientist-as-mage. One of the reasons I like D&D so much is that I see it as a self-study. That is, most of the time, I play myself in the game, or try to. I like to ask, "Who would I be, and how would I live, if I had that kind of power in that kind of world?"

    I guess that's why people get into these tests so much. I know I enjoyed taking the two that so many people were taking in the other threads about this subject, and I do get why @Meagloth wants to design one of his own.

    I think I felt like taking a more serious, cautionary tone in my response to this new project, because I've seen some people take a blow to their self-esteem when one of these tests gives them low stats, or says that they're "evil".

    [Deleted User]KidCarnivalBlackravendemented
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    edited February 2014
    For Marvel:
    LG: Captain America, Beast, Dr. Xavier, Cyclops (traditionally), Black Widow, Mrs Marvel, She-Hulk
    NG: Spider-Man, Thor, Nick Fury, all the Fantastic Four, Multiple Man (though he has dupes of literally every alignment ever)
    CG: Daredevil, Punisher, Wolverine (most depictions), Hawkeye, Cyclops (in recent history... maybe CN now)

    For DC:
    LG: Superman (traditionally), Barry Allen Flash, Hawk-Man, Kyle Raynor Green Lantern
    NG: Wally West Flash, Nightwing, Hal Jordan Green Lantern in the 80s, Wonder-Woman(sometimes CG), Hawk-Girl
    CG: Green Arrow, Hal Jordan Green Lantern (post-Rebirth), Animal Man

    BelgarathMTHlolien
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    Shandyr said:

    [...] because I've seen some people take a blow to their self-esteem when one of these tests gives them low stats, or says that they're "evil".

    Yeah, me too *cough*

    >_>
    This sends the highly inaccurate internet sarcasm decetors off :P

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,145
    edited February 2014
    @meagloth I agree with you about that no single poll/quiz about alignment is right, yours does not have as much coverage as others and the questions are little bit lighter than the ones I'd ask, I don't think you can state your alignment with others' way of categorizing, you must know how you are, or mold yourself in how you think you are.
    Anyway I like polls so I'll answer it :D

    1): G/E, I am a nice person sometimes, but I have to admit that I've been an asshole for a long time and sometimes I can become a depreciable jerk, people react to me in both ways in a very manner.
    2): L/N/C, well, nowadays and in my country the Laws are like a bad-made-joke, also, I don't consider them as I find them "getting over" that promise of "liberty". I know they are needed for a society, but, do we need a society?
    3): G/N/E, you have to do all three together, to become unstoppable! Mwahahaha! Personally I'll chose them all because I follow all this ways together, I've done things like all that you've mentioned and the results were good in most of the times (yeah, I'm a prick too, and I went to help out the best student in the class too, so I'll go for them all).
    4): G/N/E, the easiest one and the one to remain alive, if I have a shotgun I'll blast the bear, but if I am going to get grabbed by the bear I throw the other guy if I can't run faster.
    5): N/E, if I'd had money I will use it, I don't find what's so addicting about money or why do you need more.
    6): G/E, pain is funny, much more if you are inflicting it, but there are some people that you want them to be safe and healthy.
    7): Batman, since ever, but this option is totally pointless.
    8): L/N/C, all those things together might help me found it.
    9): Playing Baldur's Gate, the three a well.
    10): Unless it is an Empire ruled by a person worth an empire, I dislike governments, much more capitalism.

    Blackravenlolien
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    @BelgarathMTH With great amounts of eyes comes great insight. :)

    Na, seriously, I think "power corrupts" is not neccessarily true, but power definitely changes a person, simply because it gives you other options to act on your views (or not). There are so many different ways how to deal with power and motivations to take each path. Do I share my power because I think it's more efficient and just want to get things done? Do I share it because I can't deal with responsibility? Do I keep it all to myself because I don't trust anyone? Or because I don't want to burden people? Or because I think if I want something done right, I have to do it myself? Do I become over-ambitious and make much too big plans? Do I stack low and stay behind my potential out of fear - or foresight - that I won't be in power forever? That's just one thing of many that can say a lot about my person and in extension "alignment".

    Who is to say that someone we would commonly call a "good" person in the real world is just "good" because they don't have the arcane/divine/physical power to do what they really want to do? In a D&D world, a harmless nutjob could rise to a demon-powered monster, and in turn inspire someone else to start a vigiliante organisation that purges the country from people like that. In the real world, they'd probably not get along and that's it, but given the power to do something about their dislike, things can look different.

    Plus, there is no strict definition on what is "good", "neutral" and "evil" in the real world. For example, I would put the Punisher in "true neutral" in his universe - he has an agenda, but often takes it too far and kills "good" people who disagree with him, "evil" people for minor offenses and in some stories, he even kills himself because not even he is pure enough for his own standards. That's not the actions of a "chaotic good" or any good person to me, and the one thing making him "not evil" is that a majority of his victims is even worse than him. Even in a comic world that is set in a "almost real" world, superpowers change the perception - in reality-reality, the Punisher would be a serial killer with a body count to rival Pedro Alonso Lopes.

    BelgarathMTH
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    @KidCarnival @BelgarathMTH The Punisher is made to make people ask the question: Are you a good person/hero if you spend your time taking out criminals through vengeance? Some people don't want justice, they want revenge in the name of justice, and the Punisher appeals to those people. Just like, there used to be a book series called Mack Bolan, about a guy whose family (except for his brother) who was killed by his father after he got involved with the Mafia because he had gotten in deep with loan sharks after being injured and losing his job, and Bolan, a soldier from Vietnam, went after them with extreme prejudice*. That was a very popular trope in the late 70's/early 80's. Steven Segal's career was built on that sort of stuff. Charles Bronson starred in a ton of movies where someone went after his family and he fought back no holds barred.

    (*Extreme Prejudice being, literally, "A Bullet doesn't care what color you are.") He actually predates the Punisher character by 5 years, and his character nickname is "The Executioner". One based on the other? You decide!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mack_Bolan

    BelgarathMTH
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    edited February 2014

    . Even in a comic world that is set in a "almost real" world, superpowers change the perception - in reality-reality, the Punisher would be a serial killer with a body count to rival Pedro Alonso Lopes.

    Truth
    LadyRhian said:

    Some people don't want justice, they want revenge in the name of justice, and the Punisher appeals to those people.

    This is often a false dichotomy. Many would argue that in a lot of situations the results or the outcomes and even goals are the same. "Justice" is just as subjective a term as "good".

    Post edited by booinyoureyes on
    KidCarnivallolien
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    @booinyoureyes They call it "justice", but what it ends up being is "Bad Guys get killed/badly beaten up, injured and near dead" rather than "Bad Guys pay for their crimes in jail."

    BelgarathMTH
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,455
    edited February 2014
    So then, what is the difference between 'revenge", and "justice"? Perhaps the asking of that question is the sub-text of the kind of fantasy (comic book worlds) being discussed.

    Perhaps the difference is that "revenge" is carried out by one person as judge, jury, and executioner, while "justice" is a consensus achieved within a multiple person and corporate system of checks and balances, that includes separate entities as judge, jury, and executioner (or jailer, if that is the consensus.)

    jackjackbooinyoureyesCorvino
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,248
    "I fight for rejustice!"

    booinyoureyeslolien
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

    booinyoureyesBelgarathMTHjackjackKidCarnival
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Outside a comic world, "justice" is carried out by an "unbiased party" (in most cases a court and law enforcement system, might vary within specific communities, based on the rules set for this community, i.e. things a school or university handles internally). "Revenge" is carried out by the "harmed party" - the victim striking back, an eye for an eye, and not regulated by rules or laws, just by what the harmed party finds appropriate punishment. "Justice" contains the notion that people guilty of the same offense will recieve the same (or very similar) punishment. "Revenge" is a total wild card.

    booinyoureyesBelgarathMTH
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    edited February 2014
    @BelgarathMTH
    True, but some would note that the worst INjustices have occurred in times when there was consensus (genocide, slave trade, etc). Groups are just as fallible as individuals.

    I think defining something as "vengeance" would require the person who is dolling out the punishment to have been the injured party (ie "My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die"). Yet even in that case, its arguable that vengeance and justice are one and the same.

    So I definitely see where you'd say that impartiality is the essence of "justice". Yet I wouldn't say that victims seeking revenge is the *opposite* of justice (or even opposed to justice in the majority of cases)



    lol... when I started typing the last response was Belgar's... but when I posted KidCarnival had already said pretty much what I had intended to say.

    BelgarathMTHKidCarnivaljackjacklolien
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    It doesn't have to be the opposite. The person taking revenge could still want to be fair. Let's say there is a thief who stole 100 money. The damaged party says "it's my money, and I would have invested it, with interest, the thief owes me 110 money" and take 110 money from him. That's not an unreasonable thing to say, and a judge would probably also not sentence the thief to death for that. If the damaged party would say "the thief stole 100 money and because of that, my child starved, so I kill the thief's child to show him how that feels"... that's where "revenge" and "justice" drift apart.

    jackjackbooinyoureyesAristillius
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    We are such mindreaders. :P

  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    edited March 2014
    Ok, so I was bored and started working on this a little more, and I actually got pretty far.
    Choose the statement that you most agree with: (G)there is evil in the world and it most be stopped (N) it is what it is (E) to be successful you must be ruthless and emotionless

    Laws: (C)get in my way (N)are generally helpful, but I don't follow all of them (L)are a necessary part of society
    To be successful in life, one must: (G)work well with people and take opportunities (L)do better than everyone else (E)crush those less than you.

    You and your friends are chased by a bear, to stay alive you: (G)defend yourself and your friends (N)run faster than the guy behind you (E) throw the other guy to the bear.

    The best use of wealth is: (G) to help those less fortunate (N) Buying things(E) personal gain and power

    The suffering of others: (G) should be stopped(N) happens (E) is fun to watch

    Life is about: (L)finding order and reason (N) life is. The reason hardly matters (C) experiencing things

    I have the most fun: (L)with my friends, doing something organized and/or familiar (N) with people I like (C) doing something new and interesting

    The primary function of (perfect) government is to: (L) advance society (N) better peoples' lives (C) better my life

    The country is being invaded by Belgium. You: (L) join the army and fight for the cause (N) do what you can to aid war effort (C) cut a deal with Belgium and act as a spy

    You are in the position to deal justice to the person who murdered your beloved. You have him at gun point and he has surrendered. You: (F) tell him that he is forgiven. (V) tell him he is a despicable person, and demand the heaviest possible punishment. (S) torture him for a while until he finally croaks

    A man that put you In Prison for a crime you didn't do confronts you. He apologizes, and say that the only way he can feel better is for you to take this $5000. You have been quite successful, despite your stay In Prison, and you have no need of $5000. It's clearly the mans entire savings. You: (F) take the money, but slip it back to him in the night. (V) take the money (S) refuse the money, though he insists.

    A hoard of barbarians invade a village you are staying at. You: (F) investigate the cause, try to reason with the leader (V)smite them (S) use the chaos to sack the village

    Robbers are invading your home for a prize diamond. You: (F) give them the diamond. Better it than you (V) fight back (S) throw the diamond into the sea

    Someone has legally obtain possession of your favorite painting. You: (F) let it go, you can still get a print, and he he must really want it if he fought hard in court to get it. (V) try to steal it back without getting caught, despite it being very risky (S) deface the painting. If you can't have it, no one can

    Class-------------------------
    In high school I was a: (F) jock (R)outdoorsy kid (P) Boy Scout (T) the clever prankster (D) environmentalist (W) nerd (B) musician (C) youth group kid (S) something else..... (M) martial arts kid

    My friends say I'm: (F) disciplined and athletic (R)outdoorsy and adventurous (P) a bit self righteous, but nice (T) clever and tricksy (D) fair, but maybe a little judgmental (W) bookish and well learned (B) friendly and creative (C) devoted to my religion (S) batsh*t crazy (M) tough, disciplined, and religious.

    My favorite animal from this list is: (F)shark (R)wolf (P)lion (T)cat (D)sparrow (W) raven (B)peacock (C)dog (S) tiger (M) praying mantis

    If I could have a superpower it would be:(F) incredible strength (R)incredible durability/toughness (P)flight (T) invisibility (D) ability to talk at animals (W) incredibly intelligence (B) incredible physical beauty (C) incredible wisdom (S) incredible influence over people (M) incredible quickness and fighting ability

    My dream job is: (F)star athlete(R) park ranger (P) politician (T) thief (D) environmental activist (W) academic (B) celebrity (C) spiritual leader (M) monk

    If I was in I fight I would use a: (F) large metal stick, maybe sharpened (R) big stick (P) hit very hard with the weapon of righteousness! (T) a very sharp wit (D) something with thorns (W) running (B) smile and calm words (C) reason and perspective (S) sheer force of will! and maybe a little running... (M) swift punch and kicks

    I would rather watch: (F)ESPN (R) nature documentary.... If I have to (P) the news (maybe fox...?) (T) YouTube videos on lockpicking (D)the Inconvenient truth (W) science documentary (B) the oscars (S) a psychology documentary (M)nothing (this is NOT none of the above)

    It is better to be: (F) strong (R) tough (P) faithful (T)quick and clever (D) natural (W) smart (B) well liked (C) wise (S) unique (M)

    My favorite clothes to wear everyday are: (F) camo vests and cargo pants (R)practical, neutral colored, quiet (P) snazzy suites, loud and stylish(T) something nondescript, easy to move in, with lots of pockets (D) environmentally friendly, fair trade clothing. (W) comfortable, but good looking. (B) hip, fashionable and loud. (C)modest, practical clothing (S)whatever the hell I feel like, b**ch!

    The outdoors should be: (+D)protected from human development entirely (-[no effect]) used responsibly and enjoyed (-D) destroyed. Burn baby burn!

    If asked to run for mayor of my town I would: (+P) already be running (-) accept, if I thought that it was a reasonable proposition (-P) decline. I would never run for public office

    If provided with the opportunity to learn a new martial art, I: (F) gladly accept! I'm always learning new ways to defend myself. (-)accept, but only cause it's free and my friend wanted me to. (-F) decline. Learning to fight just isn't practical these days.

    My friends are going on a hike and invite me to come. I: (R) offer to lead the hike, and point out interesting natural features. (-) agree to come along. It'll be fun. (-R) decline. I hate hiking, and the outdoors in general.

    There is a talk being given in town on a new astrophysics concept. I would: (W) definitely go. I love science. (-)look into it. I might go if I'm not doing anything else. (-W) not even consider going. Science is boring.

    Which statement best describes you: (T) I am very sneaky. I can hide in most places and scare my friends. I often hear, "oh! I hadn't realized you where there. (-) I'm not particularly stealthy, but I think I can hide if I have to (-T) I cannot hide. When I try to sneak up on my friends, the laughter at me without even looking over their shoulders.

    I am: (C) very religious. My faith permeates every area of my life. (-)not particularly spiritual, but I respect religion and maybe sometimes go to church/mass or whatever is the norm (-C) I find the Idea of god ridiculous. I try to free people from the iron fist of religion.

    I am: (S) incredibly weird and unique. I. am. *special*. (-) just as unique as the next guy. Everybody's different (-S) completely normal. There is almost nothing remarkable about me. Sometimes my friends say I'm boring.

    I play a musical instrument: (B) very well I take/took lessons extensively, and play more than one (-)I took some music classes in school, but I never took it father than that. (-B) I can not carry a tune in a bucket. If I hum people on the subway tell me "in tune or not at all"

    I am: (M) a skilled, devoted, disciplined martial artist. I can take blows that would end lesser men, and hit back harder. (-) I took some karate as a kid... (-M) when my friends jokingly hit me, I crumple up into a ball and prepare for the end. When I hit someone they laugh

    Race--------------------
    When it comes to build I am: (E)tall and extremely skinny (HE) a bit taller and skinnier than average, but nothing special. (HU ) average (D) shorter than average, but average build otherwise. (H) short and a bit plump (G) short and skinny (HO) very large. I am taller and heavier than average

    My strongest characteristic is my: (G) intellect (HO) general physical ability (H) skill with my hands, fine motor skillility. I am a good sprinter and light on my feet (HU)nothing in particular (HE) I don't have any specialty, but I seem to be good at everything I try (D) my toughness. I can take some punches, and some beers.

    People describe my facial features as: (H) friendly and a little cherubic (HO) broad, muscular and tough looking. Actually a bit ugly, according to some people (HU) nothing special, really. Just average. (E) pointed and devilish. Foxy. (HE) not particularly striking, but i think I'm prettier than most. (HU) just normal. Average.

    It is better to be: (G) smart (-G) wise

    It is better have: (H) finger dexterity, fine motor skill (-H) physical strength)

    It is better to be: (D) tough (-D) quick

    It is better to be: (E) quick (-E) tough

    It's better to be: (HO)strong and tough (-HO) wise and intelligent

    Its better to be: (HU) average (-) extreme

    It's better to: (HE)have a specialty (-HE) do everything alright

    It's better to be a: (HU) jack of all trades (-HU) be a specialist.

    Stats--------------------
    (S)I can bench press about(lbs): (3)54 (4)73 (5)087 (6)99 (7)111 (8)123 (9)134.9 (10)146 (11)157 (12)168 (13)180 (14)192 (15)204 (16)219 (17)238 (18)250+

    I decided to make it a full character test, instead of just alignment, and I've added a new dimension to alignment, which you can ignore if you don't like. It goes from spiteful To forgiving, With vengeful in the middle.

    So the idea is that spiteful is willing to injure oneself, only to injure(spite) someone they hate. And forgiving evil would forgive someone of a past transgression if it benefitted them. I though the current system:
    image
    Is made 3 dimensional:
    image
    From square, to cube, if you will. I would appreciate comments and suggestions.

    I need more alignment questions, so if anyone wants to post some, :).
    I'm also having trouble with the tedium of stats, it's just a lot of typing, and I've never been to a gym, and have too look up bench press stuff, ect, so if anybody's got anything useful on that, it would be MUCH appreciated.

    Post edited by meagloth on
    CrevsDaakAristilliusjackjack
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,145
    edited March 2014
    I really don't think that the Evil/Good axis is more than just a way of judging, but Law/Chaos is important to me, here's a pic I just made for you ;)image

    [Deleted User]meaglothjackjackBlackraven
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    edited March 2014
    @CrevsDaak‌ yea, I think I agree with you. The law/chaos axis is much more unbiased, and good/evil is incredibly subjective and judgmental. I suppose you could use selfish/selflessness instead, but good vs. evil is kinda catchy. The current system is done from a lawful good point of view, when it should be done from a true neutral view.

    CrevsDaakAristillius
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    Hey, is a mile run under strength, dexterity, or con? It seems to long for dex, to short for con, and I don't feel like running falls under strength.

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