I think I'll probably keep boots 'o speed off the list, just so that the one pair available in the game feels truly special. But I could then roll a 1dx to see which item it is.
I'm slightly surprised Cloak of Non-detection isn't in there too. I might add it in just for fun.
I think I'll probably keep boots 'o speed off the list, just so that the one pair available in the game feels truly special. But I could then roll a 1d8 to see which item it is.
I'm slightly surprised Cloak of Non-detection isn't in there too. I might add it in just for fun.
The Cloak of Non-Detection is not listed in the DMG, but I think it is fair to consider it as part of the range (for comparison, Robe of the Archmagi is 6000XP and Robe of Stars is 4000XP). I think items from #1 through #8 are relatively balanced when considered against one another.
And... as an indication of the obscene power of Staff of the Magi and Staff of Power... Magi is 15000XP and Power 12000XP :P
From a PnP perspective, the information in the books regarding Deity intervention is probably written to be vague enough such that the DM can decide when/how much involvement a given Deity would have in any specific adventure. that way the DM isn't hog-tied to any given interpretation and can tell the story he/she wants, rather than anything else.
I've played in campaigns on both sides of the coin. In the end, if the DM decides to involve the physical manifestation of a Deity should a player do something to offend, that generally will degenerate more often than not into problems. Either players won't do stuff that they would ordinarily do and thus bork the plot that the DM is creating, or they will attempt to manipulate the Deity such that they play them and trick them into some action that the Player wants (usually ending up with either a POd DM or a very DEAD character or group or sometimes both).
No lie, there was one guy in our group who would cry 'ASMODEUS' every time he got bored or just wanted to make trouble. Even though we told him "That doesn't work, you need his 'True' name", he would persist. One time the DM gave him his wish. His first attack was "Power Word Re-roll" on the entire party. We none of us were pleased as these were seasoned characters who went too soon into that gentle night.
I Personally like R. A. Salvatore's stance on the topic in that he feels the Deities don't "Actually" come down and interfere in the affairs of men, but their influence can sometimes be felt. I think that plays better in the PnP realm, but that is a highly subjective and personal opinion.
@Spyder, you make really good points about the DM having some flexibility, so what I think I will do is flip a card as to whether Gond detects the theft. If he does he will punish them by having the crafting of a random portion of Eldoth's arrows fail (the poison I guess). As mentioned earlier, I'll operationalize that by rolling a 1d5 for the number of arrows that succeed and use EE Keeper to adjust the amount that gets added to his quiver.
@MacHurto From a roleplaying vantage I think it's more fun to make it more of a question as to whether a merchant would know the item is "hot." I do think there's a strong chance that Halbazer Drin would know that the Hall of Wonders has been displaying a telescope. But he might not know. And if he is aware that the temple of Gond has been featuring such an item, and then strongly suspects that the item is stolen, he may still be inclined to recover it for the temple. But he is a businessman, after all. Maybe he would sell it back to the High House of Wonders for a modest profit.
I'll condense all that imagined uncertainty into a card flip for whether Drin will offer to make a trade for the telescope.
As to value, one would think that spyglasses might be common for sailing vessels. But perhaps most ships have an elf with keen eyesight who serves the same function. Anyway, based on the conversation with Brevlik telescopes are evidently rare, so I'll stick with that. Per the 2nd edition AD&D DMG a telescope is worth 1000 gp. But, if Drin makes an offer to trade for it, I'll make it more fun by having him offer a variety of items from a wider span of value.
If Drin refuses, then I imagine that Silence wouldn't have any compunction about buying it. And Black Lily of course would too. I'd have Silence offer one potion of master thievery for it. They'd probably go to her first. If they don't like that offer then they could consider seeing Black Lily. Black Lily I think would also offer an item for trade of around 500 gp value as well.
One idea I haven't seen mentioned yet: Even if Gond is not all-seeing and not immediately aware of the temple robbery, wouldn't his priests simply *tell* him in prayer? If their prayers do not go directly to "the ears of Gond", then one of Gond's intermediaries would tell him. One way or another, Gond has got to know about the theft, although, one could question whether he can find out who did it, if the priests don't know.
If Gond is imagined as the power who grants Eldoth's arrow making ability, and also imagined to know the identity of the thieves through whatever means, then I don't think Eldoth should be able to make *any* more arrows until Gond is appeased.
It comes down to how one wants to interpret divinity in the Realms, I suppose. The fact is, in game, there are a lot of inter-temple shenanigans that go on where one robs another, and nobody gets punished unless they get caught and are punished by their mortal peers.
While the gods make their existence known by granting spells to their priests, that seems to be the full extent of their involvement. At least in the games, they never directly intervene in anything. That's why I've always thought that the Cult of the Eyeless preacher in the Temple District actually made some good points, and why he was able to convince many "victims" to come with him willingly.
Agreed. They intervene in PnP and in the novels, but they don't intervene in the games. Might be for the better though. If every one whom the PC steals from is a worshipper of one deity or another, the PC will have an army of angry deities behind his back XD
I'm going to sleep on whether Gond detects the theft or not.
I can see some good RP value in the god being aware of the theft, and consequently denying Eldoth's crafting ability... and then possibly using that to keep Eldoth tied to the party. For example, perhaps it is somehow discerned that in order for Eldoth to have his arrow crafting ability restored by Gond, he and Coran have to make up for their misdeed as a team. That would serve as a kind of buffer against Eldoth behaving maliciously against the party, at least until he gets his poison arrow crafting ability back.
I guess, for me I find it hard to believe that any God would care about the theft of an individual item, even a Holy item. It just seems a bit beneath their radar. It's like the CEO of some multi-national corporation worrying about the theft of staplers from one of their offices.
If every single infraction against a God were meted out with Divine intervention, where would the God have any time to fight their wars or lead their worshipers? Not to mention the fact that it shows almost no faith in the servants of that God that he/she has to do all of the work. But that's just personal opinion.
@Spyder I think this is a great argument as well! To me it weighs at least as strongly, if not more, than the books stating that a god can see what's happening inside his or her own temples (i.e., it is possible but not a certainty). Maybe I should just flip a card, lol.
And the Fates' decree... result of the card flip: black suit = no. Gond does not detect the theft.
Comments
I'm slightly surprised Cloak of Non-detection isn't in there too. I might add it in just for fun.
And... as an indication of the obscene power of Staff of the Magi and Staff of Power... Magi is 15000XP and Power 12000XP :P
I've played in campaigns on both sides of the coin. In the end, if the DM decides to involve the physical manifestation of a Deity should a player do something to offend, that generally will degenerate more often than not into problems. Either players won't do stuff that they would ordinarily do and thus bork the plot that the DM is creating, or they will attempt to manipulate the Deity such that they play them and trick them into some action that the Player wants (usually ending up with either a POd DM or a very DEAD character or group or sometimes both).
No lie, there was one guy in our group who would cry 'ASMODEUS' every time he got bored or just wanted to make trouble. Even though we told him "That doesn't work, you need his 'True' name", he would persist. One time the DM gave him his wish. His first attack was "Power Word Re-roll" on the entire party. We none of us were pleased as these were seasoned characters who went too soon into that gentle night.
I Personally like R. A. Salvatore's stance on the topic in that he feels the Deities don't "Actually" come down and interfere in the affairs of men, but their influence can sometimes be felt. I think that plays better in the PnP realm, but that is a highly subjective and personal opinion.
@MacHurto From a roleplaying vantage I think it's more fun to make it more of a question as to whether a merchant would know the item is "hot." I do think there's a strong chance that Halbazer Drin would know that the Hall of Wonders has been displaying a telescope. But he might not know. And if he is aware that the temple of Gond has been featuring such an item, and then strongly suspects that the item is stolen, he may still be inclined to recover it for the temple. But he is a businessman, after all. Maybe he would sell it back to the High House of Wonders for a modest profit.
I'll condense all that imagined uncertainty into a card flip for whether Drin will offer to make a trade for the telescope.
As to value, one would think that spyglasses might be common for sailing vessels. But perhaps most ships have an elf with keen eyesight who serves the same function. Anyway, based on the conversation with Brevlik telescopes are evidently rare, so I'll stick with that. Per the 2nd edition AD&D DMG a telescope is worth 1000 gp. But, if Drin makes an offer to trade for it, I'll make it more fun by having him offer a variety of items from a wider span of value.
If Drin refuses, then I imagine that Silence wouldn't have any compunction about buying it. And Black Lily of course would too. I'd have Silence offer one potion of master thievery for it. They'd probably go to her first. If they don't like that offer then they could consider seeing Black Lily. Black Lily I think would also offer an item for trade of around 500 gp value as well.
If Gond is imagined as the power who grants Eldoth's arrow making ability, and also imagined to know the identity of the thieves through whatever means, then I don't think Eldoth should be able to make *any* more arrows until Gond is appeased.
It comes down to how one wants to interpret divinity in the Realms, I suppose. The fact is, in game, there are a lot of inter-temple shenanigans that go on where one robs another, and nobody gets punished unless they get caught and are punished by their mortal peers.
While the gods make their existence known by granting spells to their priests, that seems to be the full extent of their involvement. At least in the games, they never directly intervene in anything. That's why I've always thought that the Cult of the Eyeless preacher in the Temple District actually made some good points, and why he was able to convince many "victims" to come with him willingly.
Agreed. They intervene in PnP and in the novels, but they don't intervene in the games. Might be for the better though. If every one whom the PC steals from is a worshipper of one deity or another, the PC will have an army of angry deities behind his back XD
I can see some good RP value in the god being aware of the theft, and consequently denying Eldoth's crafting ability... and then possibly using that to keep Eldoth tied to the party. For example, perhaps it is somehow discerned that in order for Eldoth to have his arrow crafting ability restored by Gond, he and Coran have to make up for their misdeed as a team. That would serve as a kind of buffer against Eldoth behaving maliciously against the party, at least until he gets his poison arrow crafting ability back.
If every single infraction against a God were meted out with Divine intervention, where would the God have any time to fight their wars or lead their worshipers? Not to mention the fact that it shows almost no faith in the servants of that God that he/she has to do all of the work. But that's just personal opinion.
And the Fates' decree... result of the card flip: black suit = no. Gond does not detect the theft.