roleplaying question: should (and would) a thief anger a god? (spoilers)
Lemernis
Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
Note: There's spoilers ahead for a side-quest in chapter 5. So if you're a first time player or haven't spent a lot of time doing chapter 5 BG city quests (and intend to some day), and don't want to be spoiled, you probably should back out of this thread.
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I'm at a sort of an interesting roleplaying juncture in my current game, whereupon at the temple of Gond, completing Brevlik's quest to steal the telescope, I'm asking myself: would Coran loot the coffers of a temple of Gond?
The party is actively trying to raise cash but there is no dire, life-or-death imperative about it.
I'm really not sure what he would do there... One would think that such an action would anger the deity, of course--which is a strong deterrent. But then again, what is the worst that is likely to happen from garnering the ire of such a deity, whose portfolio is basically about crafting? (Actually, Eldoth, who is also in the party, crafts his own poisoned arrows; and there could be some spillover to him. But that gets more complicated to implement than I really want to go through for the trouble.)
Coran could always rationalize to himself that he might make things right with a donation to the temple somewhere down the road... But by the same token, the gems in question are highly valuable: star sapphire = 2000 gp and rogue stone = 2500 gp. So that's a lot of coin to make up for at some future point! (If he sincerely wants to try to make things right with Gond eventually, at least in his mind.)
Incidentally, there's no particular relationship between Coran's favorite deity, Tymora, and Gond.
Coran does have a Wis of 9, which is a smidge into low normal range (just barely though).
I could flip a card for it, of course. But any thoughts about whether theft of gems that are ostensibly offerings to the Gondian temple is something Coran would do?
***
I'm at a sort of an interesting roleplaying juncture in my current game, whereupon at the temple of Gond, completing Brevlik's quest to steal the telescope, I'm asking myself: would Coran loot the coffers of a temple of Gond?
The party is actively trying to raise cash but there is no dire, life-or-death imperative about it.
I'm really not sure what he would do there... One would think that such an action would anger the deity, of course--which is a strong deterrent. But then again, what is the worst that is likely to happen from garnering the ire of such a deity, whose portfolio is basically about crafting? (Actually, Eldoth, who is also in the party, crafts his own poisoned arrows; and there could be some spillover to him. But that gets more complicated to implement than I really want to go through for the trouble.)
Coran could always rationalize to himself that he might make things right with a donation to the temple somewhere down the road... But by the same token, the gems in question are highly valuable: star sapphire = 2000 gp and rogue stone = 2500 gp. So that's a lot of coin to make up for at some future point! (If he sincerely wants to try to make things right with Gond eventually, at least in his mind.)
Incidentally, there's no particular relationship between Coran's favorite deity, Tymora, and Gond.
Coran does have a Wis of 9, which is a smidge into low normal range (just barely though).
I could flip a card for it, of course. But any thoughts about whether theft of gems that are ostensibly offerings to the Gondian temple is something Coran would do?
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Comments
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•Speak to the three fishermen in the area north of the Friendly Arm Inn. They will ask you to kill a witch who has been threatening their lives.
•You can either kill Tanya and receive a reward from the fishermen of 1000 experience, a Flail +1, and 100 gold if you demand for more, or you can demand the bowl from the fishermen and return it to Tanya for 2500 experience. Either way you will just be a pawn in a game between two gods.
--
What would you do there? "precedent"
Isn't almost every being in this world a worshiper of some god?
-> I must be hated bye almost every god in this game.
I think Coran would, if he see the benefits working with you,...
However, as was stated above, looting a neutral temple would be a no-no for a chaotic good character. They may have a touch of greed, but overall their actions persue goodness and right, they are just not so concerned with the law as with helping those in need, defending goodness, and promoting personal freedom.
Diviner - CG
Imoen - NG (but follows CHARNAME's lead)
Neera - CN
Coran - CG
Eldoth - NE
Faldorn - TN
Here I am RPing that Coran and Eldoth have headed off on their own on a burglary and pickpocketing spree to fatten the party's coin purse. Eldoth has persuaded most everyone (except Faldorn*) that this is a good idea. His Cha is 18 by virtue of the nymph cloak.
As a workaround I've had to bring the rest of the party along and park them in the corner of the map, and pretend that they're not really there.
Coran is left to ponder whether to undertake this action by himself, because Eldoth is stationed back at the front door of the House of Wonders serving as a lookout. The two of them are outside of one another's perception range. So this is Coran's own decision.
I should add, though, that before they set out on this little side-adventure Eldoth also tried to persuade Coran that the two of them should feel entitled to keep a portion of the loot for themselves. This, for the most part, Coran will resist, as he remains loyal to the party first and foremost. Here, however, he might be tempted to steal these gem stones and divvy them with Eldoth (or I would roleplay as such).
* Not for moral reasons--all these city folk are inherently corrupted by civilization anyway, and get what they deserve for their obsession with wealth; but rather only because it is a minor distraction from her own mission to investigate the Iron Throne.
Your party is mainly a CG(N) party, so IMO there isn't a serious issue about stealing. Eldoth could have influenced Coran, Neera may have the "whatever goes as long as it benefits us", Faldorn is open to anything that allows her to pursue her Shadow Druid goals more effectively, and as a whole, the party doesn't seem very bothered even if Coran is to steal. As a contrast, this party would be a bit more tricky to role-play:
PC - Lawful Good
Ajantis - Lawful Good
Dynaheir - Lawful Good
Rasaad - Lawful Good
Xan - Lawful Neutral
Imoen - Neutral Good
Coran is the hero, who gets the girl at the end and bonks away! Who then leaves her broken hearted to continue another epic quest, to bonk another girl with a lovely set of eye's.
This does not make him evil! He just has no times to follow the rules of courtship and be fettered by civilizations decree that he settle down and marry! Good for Coran, our Chaotic Good friend!
As for stealing from a God... Well, he is not going to be stealing from a God!
Coran is simply borrowing Gond's offerings... And putting them to better use enlightening others.
Artifacts sitting getting musty in a draw, is no way to treat such astounding craftsmanship.
They should be observed close up, felt and used.
They should inspire and ignite the power of the mind. To challenge the dreamers to make better.
May they spread the joy of construction and engineering to the masses!
Lo! Coran is doing divine work!
Fool be he, that does not see the goodness, if not Gond's righteousness, in guiding Coran's hand in this act!
For me, I always play LG, but I RP myself as the "anti-Lawful Stupid" type.
Go out of my way to do good (e.g. accepting quests in out-of-the-way locations) and resolve quests in good ways. Support the legal authorities insofar as it's feasible (e.g. helping Lt Aegisfield). But I understand that concerns of good need to trump concerns of law sometimes, even if law cannot simply be thrown out of the window (e.g. Agreeing to help Tolgerias as a member of the authorities to capture Valygar when it was for the murders of some Cowled Wizards, but double-crossing Tolgerias when it's apparent Valygar was wronged).
For stealing, I assume PC would have educated the party that he adopts the attitude of "I know we're short of cash, and I don't like to steal, but if you guys feel a need to do it, go ahead. Just make sure no one is hurt, and don't get into any other trouble with the law" and leaves it to party discretion. It helps that I don't play as a thief XD
Imho, it isn't about a CG thief being guided by a feeling of right and wrong, such that he or she feels that it's "wrong" to steal from a temple.
Chaotic = most often not feeling bound or compelled to adhere with socially codified behavior (i.e., one's own motivations supersede playing by society's rules)
Good = being supportive and helpful to others
I doubt very much if Coran, or any of the other thieves in the game, think it very likely that The Gods (with as real as they are in the game world) would ever take notice of a thief. Certainly they are unlikely to manifest and punish the would-be thief. They've got more important stuff to do. Plus, if they were that opposed to the theft, wouldn't they merely stop the thief BEFORE the crime? They are GODS after all.
One thing about the DnD pantheon is that every deity seems to be actively countering another deity but all of them, by decree of Ao, cannot work in the realms in person (only avatars may manifest, and the number of avatars active at any time is limited). If the deity's home plane is the Prime Material Plane (typically very weak demipowers), they are considered to be active in person, but they are very vulnerable to attack and demipowers can only have one avatar at any time. Also, IIRC a deity's divination power can be actively blocked by another deity of equal or higher rank. If everyone blocks one another it's a stalemate that requires deities to work through worshippers
I'd think that a lot of Adventurer types are adrenalin junkies and get off on doing moderately to extremely dangerous things just to see if they can get away with it. After all, spelunking some ancient burial tomb in the hopes that you are tougher than the big ugly nasty that lives there isn't the safest of professions.
And my comment about Deities not bothering with Thieves, this is more the justification of the thief and not necessarily reality. After all, they have been lucky THUS far in a world where there are Gods who are firmly opposed to their lifestyles. It becomes easier to rationalize that you live a charmed life if you haven't been caught 'yet'.
Actually, your comment about deities not bothering with thieves may be truer than it sounds.
Just as there are gods who frown on thievery, they are also gods who sanction thievery. Others may not bother, just want to watch the show, or they could even want to thwart potential rivals.
On thievery, realms lore has been curiously silent. The closest I've read that might suggest direct retribution to theft would be curses from artifacts - Dawnstone will curse the thief. Other instances, I haven't come across, sadly
So, taking into consideration that deities have limitations, are not omniscient, have self-preservation interests, and probably have better things to do, it might be plausible that they really won't bother directly with a petty thief or two, though it's well likely they can send visions to guide the clergy to the thief, grant quest spells to fulfill the mission, send servant creatures after the offenders, etc.
I've never been clear on whether the gods of the Forgotten Realms are all-seeing (except possibly Helm, right? his faithful at least believe that he is). But I guess it makes sense that they aren't. So I feel satisfied that when Coran takes this risk he does not in fact anger Gond by stealing offerings to the deity's temple. (Even if Coran may be worried that Gond might.) That is, Gond has no knowledge of the theft.
Coran will give Eldoth the star sapphire and keep the rogue stone for himself, but that's not information that they will share with the party. (Unless Coran later on feels it's the right thing to do to cash in the rogue stone for the party. In that event he'd keep mum about Eldoth's gem, though.)
Quoting from Faiths and Avatars sourcebook on Sensing Abilities of Greater Powers:
These beings are practically omniscient. They always know what is happening on the entire plane they inhabit and the planes that any of their or their allies' worshipers or holy objects are currently on. They also know what is happening on the plane that anyone or anything that speaks one of their names or titles is on for a year after the name is spoken. In many cases, they can accurately predict the precise actions and other deities based on their vast knowledge. Unfortunately, this sensing ability can be blocked by the conscious effort of powers of equal stature.
I despise 3rd and 4th Editions and never adhere to them, but if Mystra was really killed by Cyric who was guided by Shar, since all three are greater powers, it's possible that either Cyric or Shar was blocking Mystra's sensing ability.
Hmm. In that case Gond can certainly see what happens inside one of his temples. Eldoth is inside the temple as well. So Gond can see him. And of course Gond understands what is happening.
I actually now think that Gond would probably punish them by having Eldoth's crafting of his arrows partially fail--at least until they make amends somehow.
I suppose I could do something like the following: from now on Eldoth begins experiencing partial failure to his crafting of poisoned arrows. I'd roll a 1d5 for how many arrows succeed in the crafting process during each rest cycle; then use EE Keeper to delete the number of failed arrows from the inventory. This won't really result in anything truly meaningful, though--because Eldoth already has 42 poisoned arrows, which is quite a lot, really. He just won't be replenishing his supply of them at the same robust rate as before.
But I guess it's also worth noting that in the game nothing happens to the party for stealing the telescope!
And yes, Umberlee always gets the short end of the stick from me. I sack her temple in BG, and sack her temple again in Brynnlaw. Since I always help Tenya, maybe Talos is blocking HER sensing so that I can bring havoc to her house. LOL
Also, if Coran and Eldoth do decide to return to Brevlik and take his offer, I know from Dudleyville that he'll reward them with the lightning wand. But Eldoth already pickpocketed that. So I think I will have him reward them with something comparable insread. Any suggestions for what it should be?
A Wand of Lightning is worth 4000XP in the Dungeon Master's Guide. I'll generate a list of comparable items that are within the 2000-4000XP range.
1. Ring of Protection +2 (2000XP)
2. Ring of Wizardry (4000XP)
3. Wand of Fear (3000XP)
4. Wand of Magic Missiles (4000XP)
5. Wand of Paralyzation (3500XP)
6. Wand of Polymorphing (3500XP)
7. Cloak of Displacement (3000XP)
8. Cloak of Protection +2 (2000XP)
9. Boots of Speed (2500XP)
10. Scroll of Protection from Acid (2500XP)
11. Scroll of Protection from Cold (2000XP)
12. Scroll of Protection from Fire (2000XP)
13. Scroll of Protection from Petrification (2000XP)