AC is basically pointless because late game enemies typically have low single-digit THAC0 or better, and after factoring strength and weapon bonuses (if applicable), even with AC around -10 or so, you'll still get hit regularly, made worse by the fact that you'll usually face enemies in swarms.
For early game, monsters are weaker, but you won't be able to get the better magical items either, so you're back to square one.
But THAC0 will still be important. Monster AC often go as low as -12 through -18. If your modified THAC0 around -5 or so (after strength, weapon, equip and spell bonuses), you'll find yourself missing regularly.
You need to find the sweet spot where you'll have sufficient AC/THAC0 to manage enemies, but this varies from party to party.
EDIT: I clarify that my comments are applicable mainly to Throne of Bhaal.
AC is largely relevant throughout SoA. Most mobs are below level 12 and they have effectively thaco between 5 and 10. Unless the enemy is a dragon or demon, a decent AC between -10 to -15 should stop all physical attacks except critical.
In ToB, enemy mobs are between level 15 and 20. Their effectively thaco can get as low as -5 and even lower for giants. The problem is compounded in that enemy fighters gain extra attacks due to weapon specialization or simply being at a higher level. It's possible to have a dedicated tank with low enough AC (below -20), but critical hits will still occur frequently. Physical resistance is the way to go.
Edit: Example
FT with UAI: -Any Armor with -2 AC: Set AC -2 (also bonuses against certain weapon types) -Sentinel Shield: -5 AC -Amulet of Master Harper: -3 AC -Helmet of Balduran: -1 AC -Cloak of Sewer: -1 AC -Gaax Ring: -2 AC -Ring of Earth Elemental Control: -1 AC -Wonderous Gloves: -1 AC -Defender of Easthaven: -1 AC (also 20% physical resistance) -Girdles (Piercing/Slashing/Blunt)
-Dex bonus: -6 AC when Dex is 24 or above -Spell bonus: Protection from Evil, Defensive Harmony, Blur, etc
And of course, the most effective way is Stoneskin and Protection from Magical Weapons.
But THAC0 will still be important. Monster AC often go as low as -12 through -18. If your modified THAC0 around -5 or so (after strength, weapon, equip and spell bonuses), you'll find yourself missing regularly.
You need to find the sweet spot where you'll have sufficient AC/THAC0 to manage enemies, but this varies from party to party.
Is this a mod? Even late game ToB enemies AC hardly go below -5. Unless the enemy is a dragon or a boss, the issue is not thaco but rather killing enemies fast enough due to high HP.
Bosses will include most of the Five, plus Fallen Solar, Melissan and Ravager.
Sub-bosses include monsters like Chromatic Demon, Draconis, Diaytha, etc.
Demons will be the usual culprits like balors, mariliths, etc.
Even Drow, if armed sufficiently, can have very low AC, like Diaytha (AC -14).
These enemies are reasonably frequent and occur in such numbers that THAC0 should not be dismissed entirely, which is why I made reference to the sweet spot that varies from party to party. If facing the "typical monster", a party's fighters are unable to reach 95% hit rate (missing only on natural 1), bosses will be hard with Fallen Solar/Melissan at AC -14 and Abazigal at AC -18.
All the above may be grouped together in an umbrella "boss" category, but I find that there are too many of these "bosses" to be taken lightly.
Broadly speaking I would say AC always matters. Late game, you will encounter some boss monster types that may hit no matter what, but this is never "everyone".
I usually go for items that lower savings throws and offer protections more than worrying about ac. Reality is though, that each major fight is different and needs different types of buffs and strategies. Late in the game you should have enough potions, items and spells to deal with everything though. So it's just a matter of using which aids you best.
It comes down to the difference between being hit often and being hit every time. While this distinction may not be significant, the damage sure can be. As others have said, I'd look at equal parts AC and Damage reduction/avoidance. You are going to get hit no matter what. You just want to make sure that you aren't getting hit by every single attack.
Ac modifiers are also very important. With some items (boots of avoidance, girdle of piercing, cloak of displacement etc) you can have a better effective AC against an attack form, than your listed overall AC and it can make a big difference. (in the above example, missile weapons will have something like -10 to hit you, your ac vs missiles is 10 better than the overall ac) Also, potion of absorbtion gives +10 ac against crushing attacks:extremely handy against some tough monsters like all types of golems (except magic golem I think they have ranged attacks?) Drasus guy in Cloakwood, Gromnir Il-Khan and The Imprisoned One in ToB, to name a few.
So how would a solo fighter survive in Throne of Bhaal if everyone has such high THAC0?
Depends on the solo fighters class/kits, but any solo character can have the best equipment just for themselves. Not only can they have low AC but they can get high physical damage resistances from the higher level ability Hardiness and the Defender of Easthaven flail.
So how would a solo fighter survive in Throne of Bhaal if everyone has such high THAC0?
1. More HP 2. Use ranged attacks 3. Use item summons/protections (items that allow you to cast protections and summons) 4. Hit and run. 5. Ignore mission if it's not critical. You don't have to complete every quest or fight every enemy to win.
So how would a solo fighter survive in Throne of Bhaal if everyone has such high THAC0?
Hardiness and Potions of Superior Healing. Plus, not only enemies have such good THAC0, you can have -15 without having the best build (I got -18 once).
LOL. Maybe I am the only one here but the mere thought of not completing EVERY SINGLE Quest is simply beyond thinking about in my book. It would be like asking me not to breath. I couldn't do it, not for long anyway. But again, maybe that's just me.
What if I want to be a melee-only fighter and not use ranged weapons in ToB? :P
I never used ranged weapons with fighters in ToB, melee weapons get STR bonus and other stuff, while ranged weapons do not. That's why I use ranged weapons with thieves and mages.
What if I want to be a melee-only fighter and not use ranged weapons in ToB? :P
A straight melee fighter type in TOB is definitely viable, and in my experience even preferable to ranged fighters. With the lowest possible AC (it does matter, even in TOB) and Hardiness/Defender of Easthaven for damage reduction, your fighter wille be able to take a hit, while probably being more effective in dealing damage than a ranged fighter.
What if I want to be a melee-only fighter and not use ranged weapons in ToB? :P
I never used ranged weapons with fighters in ToB, melee weapons get STR bonus and other stuff, while ranged weapons do not. That's why I use ranged weapons with thieves and mages.
I generally start phasing out ranged attacks in early SoA...
Well, an AC of -12 on a Blackguard didn't really stop any attacks later on in ToB... Any kind of defence stops being relevant in ToB as enemies get more cheesy.
Big Metal Unit + Darksteel Shield might be the only kind of AC that would actually do something...
I believe the AC cap is -24 (-25/-26 for for */** in single weapon style) plus attack type modifiers. If you can get a character beyond -20 AC you'll notice that enemies (even bosses) won't be hitting almost constantly, so combined with physical resistance, a melee type will dfinitively last longer. I agree it's not easy to get that low, unless you're a blade or swashy.
My swashbuckler at -24 was straight up murdered by Abagizal's human form, it should be said. He could tank Draconis but that fool didn't even have a weapon, so I think immunity to normal did the work there.
My swashbuckler at -24 was straight up murdered by Abagizal's human form, it should be said. He could tank Draconis but that fool didn't even have a weapon, so I think immunity to normal did the work there.
Abagizal's human form has -29 Thac0 (he has a +5 sword of grief, grandmastery with two handed swords, ** in two-handed style (so double the chance of critical hits), 25 strength and he's also kitted as a Kensai. Draconis is a mage and like you said his human form has no weapon so there really is only so much it can do to you (he has a fairly limited number of spells).
What if I want to be a melee-only fighter and not use ranged weapons in ToB? :P
I never used ranged weapons with fighters in ToB, melee weapons get STR bonus and other stuff, while ranged weapons do not. That's why I use ranged weapons with thieves and mages.
I generally start phasing out ranged attacks in early SoA...
My PC had DEX 21 and STR 10 so there was no reason to use melee weapons. Jan Jansen had Firetooth+5 and he was boss with it, plus M/T are very squashy. Plus I used Tuigan Bow+1 for better APR and Gesen's to hit everything. I use M/T to go offensively with spells, since both their THAC0 and APR are low.
So it's at least fair to say AC is useless v Abazigal, lol
Abazigal uses a 2 handed sword and the weapon type is slashing weapon. If the UAI tank has the "best AC":
-Assume AC is -20 (achievable with Big Metal Unit and other AC enhancements) -Wear Big Metal Unit (Full Plate? Full plate gets +3 against slashing) -Girdle of Slashing (+3 against slashing) -Cloak of Shield (+1 against all weapon types) -Protection from Evil (+2) -Defensive Harmony (+2) -Blur (+3) -Dex bonus (+6)
Total AC: -40. Abaizgal's thaco is -29 and he should miss about half the time.
Comments
For early game, monsters are weaker, but you won't be able to get the better magical items either, so you're back to square one.
But THAC0 will still be important. Monster AC often go as low as -12 through -18. If your modified THAC0 around -5 or so (after strength, weapon, equip and spell bonuses), you'll find yourself missing regularly.
You need to find the sweet spot where you'll have sufficient AC/THAC0 to manage enemies, but this varies from party to party.
EDIT: I clarify that my comments are applicable mainly to Throne of Bhaal.
In ToB, enemy mobs are between level 15 and 20. Their effectively thaco can get as low as -5 and even lower for giants. The problem is compounded in that enemy fighters gain extra attacks due to weapon specialization or simply being at a higher level. It's possible to have a dedicated tank with low enough AC (below -20), but critical hits will still occur frequently. Physical resistance is the way to go.
Edit: Example
FT with UAI:
-Any Armor with -2 AC: Set AC -2 (also bonuses against certain weapon types)
-Sentinel Shield: -5 AC
-Amulet of Master Harper: -3 AC
-Helmet of Balduran: -1 AC
-Cloak of Sewer: -1 AC
-Gaax Ring: -2 AC
-Ring of Earth Elemental Control: -1 AC
-Wonderous Gloves: -1 AC
-Defender of Easthaven: -1 AC (also 20% physical resistance)
-Girdles (Piercing/Slashing/Blunt)
-Dex bonus: -6 AC when Dex is 24 or above
-Spell bonus: Protection from Evil, Defensive Harmony, Blur, etc
And of course, the most effective way is Stoneskin and Protection from Magical Weapons.
Bosses will include most of the Five, plus Fallen Solar, Melissan and Ravager.
Sub-bosses include monsters like Chromatic Demon, Draconis, Diaytha, etc.
Demons will be the usual culprits like balors, mariliths, etc.
Even Drow, if armed sufficiently, can have very low AC, like Diaytha (AC -14).
These enemies are reasonably frequent and occur in such numbers that THAC0 should not be dismissed entirely, which is why I made reference to the sweet spot that varies from party to party. If facing the "typical monster", a party's fighters are unable to reach 95% hit rate (missing only on natural 1), bosses will be hard with Fallen Solar/Melissan at AC -14 and Abazigal at AC -18.
All the above may be grouped together in an umbrella "boss" category, but I find that there are too many of these "bosses" to be taken lightly.
2. Use ranged attacks
3. Use item summons/protections (items that allow you to cast protections and summons)
4. Hit and run.
5. Ignore mission if it's not critical. You don't have to complete every quest or fight every enemy to win.
?
That's why I use ranged weapons with thieves and mages.
Big Metal Unit + Darksteel Shield might be the only kind of AC that would actually do something...
I agree it's not easy to get that low, unless you're a blade or swashy.
Plus I used Tuigan Bow+1 for better APR and Gesen's to hit everything. I use M/T to go offensively with spells, since both their THAC0 and APR are low.
-Assume AC is -20 (achievable with Big Metal Unit and other AC enhancements)
-Wear Big Metal Unit (Full Plate? Full plate gets +3 against slashing)
-Girdle of Slashing (+3 against slashing)
-Cloak of Shield (+1 against all weapon types)
-Protection from Evil (+2)
-Defensive Harmony (+2)
-Blur (+3)
-Dex bonus (+6)
Total AC: -40. Abaizgal's thaco is -29 and he should miss about half the time.
Why not use the Clay Golem to tank him?