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Is Armor Class important in Shadows of Amn/Throne of Bhaal?

thesoloerthesoloer Member Posts: 77
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
I have read that in Baldur's Gate 2, enemies have such high THAC0 that having a high AC is pointless. Is this true?
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  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Yes, in ToB the Challenge tends to gravitate that way. Maybe it's not competely useless, but less useful than damage reduction/nullification.
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    edited April 2014
    AC is basically pointless because late game enemies typically have low single-digit THAC0 or better, and after factoring strength and weapon bonuses (if applicable), even with AC around -10 or so, you'll still get hit regularly, made worse by the fact that you'll usually face enemies in swarms.

    For early game, monsters are weaker, but you won't be able to get the better magical items either, so you're back to square one.

    But THAC0 will still be important. Monster AC often go as low as -12 through -18. If your modified THAC0 around -5 or so (after strength, weapon, equip and spell bonuses), you'll find yourself missing regularly.

    You need to find the sweet spot where you'll have sufficient AC/THAC0 to manage enemies, but this varies from party to party.

    EDIT: I clarify that my comments are applicable mainly to Throne of Bhaal.
    Post edited by jacobtan on
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    jacobtan said:



    But THAC0 will still be important. Monster AC often go as low as -12 through -18. If your modified THAC0 around -5 or so (after strength, weapon, equip and spell bonuses), you'll find yourself missing regularly.

    You need to find the sweet spot where you'll have sufficient AC/THAC0 to manage enemies, but this varies from party to party.

    Is this a mod? Even late game ToB enemies AC hardly go below -5. Unless the enemy is a dragon or a boss, the issue is not thaco but rather killing enemies fast enough due to high HP.
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    edited April 2014
    Bosses, sub-bosses and demons.

    Bosses will include most of the Five, plus Fallen Solar, Melissan and Ravager.

    Sub-bosses include monsters like Chromatic Demon, Draconis, Diaytha, etc.

    Demons will be the usual culprits like balors, mariliths, etc.

    Even Drow, if armed sufficiently, can have very low AC, like Diaytha (AC -14).

    These enemies are reasonably frequent and occur in such numbers that THAC0 should not be dismissed entirely, which is why I made reference to the sweet spot that varies from party to party. If facing the "typical monster", a party's fighters are unable to reach 95% hit rate (missing only on natural 1), bosses will be hard with Fallen Solar/Melissan at AC -14 and Abazigal at AC -18.

    All the above may be grouped together in an umbrella "boss" category, but I find that there are too many of these "bosses" to be taken lightly.
    Post edited by jacobtan on
  • vyvexthornevyvexthorne Member Posts: 58
    I usually go for items that lower savings throws and offer protections more than worrying about ac. Reality is though, that each major fight is different and needs different types of buffs and strategies. Late in the game you should have enough potions, items and spells to deal with everything though. So it's just a matter of using which aids you best.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    edited April 2014
    Ac modifiers are also very important. With some items (boots of avoidance, girdle of piercing, cloak of displacement etc) you can have a better effective AC against an attack form, than your listed overall AC and it can make a big difference. (in the above example, missile weapons will have something like -10 to hit you, your ac vs missiles is 10 better than the overall ac) Also, potion of absorbtion gives +10 ac against crushing attacks:extremely handy against some tough monsters like all types of golems (except magic golem I think they have ranged attacks?) Drasus guy in Cloakwood, Gromnir Il-Khan and The Imprisoned One in ToB, to name a few.
  • thesoloerthesoloer Member Posts: 77
    So how would a solo fighter survive in Throne of Bhaal if everyone has such high THAC0?
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    thesoloer said:

    So how would a solo fighter survive in Throne of Bhaal if everyone has such high THAC0?

    Depends on the solo fighters class/kits, but any solo character can have the best equipment just for themselves. Not only can they have low AC but they can get high physical damage resistances from the higher level ability Hardiness and the Defender of Easthaven flail.
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    thesoloer said:

    So how would a solo fighter survive in Throne of Bhaal if everyone has such high THAC0?

    1. More HP
    2. Use ranged attacks
    3. Use item summons/protections (items that allow you to cast protections and summons)
    4. Hit and run.
    5. Ignore mission if it's not critical. You don't have to complete every quest or fight every enemy to win.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    thesoloer said:

    So how would a solo fighter survive in Throne of Bhaal if everyone has such high THAC0?

    Hardiness and Potions of Superior Healing. Plus, not only enemies have such good THAC0, you can have -15 without having the best build (I got -18 once).
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    jacobtan said:


    5. Ignore mission if it's not critical. You don't have to complete every quest or fight every enemy to win.

    Whut???

  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    @the_spyder‌

    ?
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    LOL. Maybe I am the only one here but the mere thought of not completing EVERY SINGLE Quest is simply beyond thinking about in my book. It would be like asking me not to breath. I couldn't do it, not for long anyway. But again, maybe that's just me.
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    I'll omit quests in BG if my party is all at max XP and I only get XP as a quest reward, unless it's convenient for me to do it :P
  • thesoloerthesoloer Member Posts: 77
    What if I want to be a melee-only fighter and not use ranged weapons in ToB? :P
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    thesoloer said:

    What if I want to be a melee-only fighter and not use ranged weapons in ToB? :P

    I never used ranged weapons with fighters in ToB, melee weapons get STR bonus and other stuff, while ranged weapons do not.
    That's why I use ranged weapons with thieves and mages.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    thesoloer said:

    What if I want to be a melee-only fighter and not use ranged weapons in ToB? :P

    A straight melee fighter type in TOB is definitely viable, and in my experience even preferable to ranged fighters. With the lowest possible AC (it does matter, even in TOB) and Hardiness/Defender of Easthaven for damage reduction, your fighter wille be able to take a hit, while probably being more effective in dealing damage than a ranged fighter.
    CrevsDaak said:

    thesoloer said:

    What if I want to be a melee-only fighter and not use ranged weapons in ToB? :P

    I never used ranged weapons with fighters in ToB, melee weapons get STR bonus and other stuff, while ranged weapons do not.
    That's why I use ranged weapons with thieves and mages.
    I generally start phasing out ranged attacks in early SoA...
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    edited April 2014
    Well, an AC of -12 on a Blackguard didn't really stop any attacks later on in ToB... Any kind of defence stops being relevant in ToB as enemies get more cheesy.

    Big Metal Unit + Darksteel Shield might be the only kind of AC that would actually do something...
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    I believe the AC cap is -24 (-25/-26 for for */** in single weapon style) plus attack type modifiers. If you can get a character beyond -20 AC you'll notice that enemies (even bosses) won't be hitting almost constantly, so combined with physical resistance, a melee type will dfinitively last longer.
    I agree it's not easy to get that low, unless you're a blade or swashy.
  • dustbubsydustbubsy Member Posts: 249
    My swashbuckler at -24 was straight up murdered by Abagizal's human form, it should be said. He could tank Draconis but that fool didn't even have a weapon, so I think immunity to normal did the work there.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited April 2014
    dustbubsy said:

    My swashbuckler at -24 was straight up murdered by Abagizal's human form, it should be said. He could tank Draconis but that fool didn't even have a weapon, so I think immunity to normal did the work there.

    Abagizal's human form has -29 Thac0 (he has a +5 sword of grief, grandmastery with two handed swords, ** in two-handed style (so double the chance of critical hits), 25 strength and he's also kitted as a Kensai. Draconis is a mage and like you said his human form has no weapon so there really is only so much it can do to you (he has a fairly limited number of spells).
    Post edited by elminster on
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    So it's at least fair to say AC is useless v Abazigal, lol
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    Abazigal has the best Thac0 of all TOB foes I think. Still -24 AC should have a noticeable effect in most TOB fights.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    Blackraven said:


    CrevsDaak said:

    thesoloer said:

    What if I want to be a melee-only fighter and not use ranged weapons in ToB? :P

    I never used ranged weapons with fighters in ToB, melee weapons get STR bonus and other stuff, while ranged weapons do not.
    That's why I use ranged weapons with thieves and mages.
    I generally start phasing out ranged attacks in early SoA...
    My PC had DEX 21 and STR 10 so there was no reason to use melee weapons. Jan Jansen had Firetooth+5 and he was boss with it, plus M/T are very squashy.
    Plus I used Tuigan Bow+1 for better APR and Gesen's to hit everything. I use M/T to go offensively with spells, since both their THAC0 and APR are low.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    @CrevsDaak, I understand, I generally play more melee-oriented characters, who only use ranged weapons in BG1 because they're so powerful...
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    @Blackraven‌ I'm talking about a full party, if it's a solo run I use both, ranged for kiting and melee for killing.
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