Dopplegangers in Candlekeep
TethorilofLathander
Member Posts: 427
When you enter the catacombs and find your old friends who are dopplegangers, does this mean they were always dopplegangers? Or have they been killed by them and taken their forms?
(It's been a while since I played this part :P)
(It's been a while since I played this part :P)
1
Comments
No they weren't always dopplegangers.
incidentally if you use the farsight spell u can see the npcs such as phlydia in the keep even after making your escape.
Nah, I think you never meet someone in the Keep that's a doplleganger save for that one monk. Below the Keep, are the dopplegangers of everyone you know, waiting for a moment to swarm up and kill everyone and replace them. You stopped them just in time.
Hurray, you.
So maybe these were just stupid dopplegangers. Honestly, considering the intelligence of most of Sarevok's allies, that's not too surprising.
When you return to Candlekeep, some people mention to you that others there have begun to act strangely and not like themselves. These are the same warnings that you had received about people in Baldur's city who had been replaced by doppelgangers.
I had always been under the impression that these people were killed and replaced by the doppelgangers, although element's post has cast doubts on that. Even then, I wonder whether the presence of the characters after killing the doppelgangers may just be an oversight by the original devs and/or limitation in the game mechanics.
The game seems to imply (or outright state?) this at some point, but from what I understand, if you don't kill Sarevok's (foster) father in the library, you will be arrested anyway because doppelgangers with the appearances of your party have killed them and left you to be framed (I've never tried this path myself, so I can't confirm it) - so that would obviously indicate that doppelgangers can copy people without having to kill them.
Incidentally, there's a part in one of the merchant buildings where you meet a merchant who is really a doppelganger, and he says to you something like, "I have you face, but can you tell me your name?" before revealing himself as a doppelganger.
element's post is certainly a revelation, but I still wonder whether that's just an oversight by the original devs.
I was thinking that a cool plot twist/mindfuck would've been if it turned out that all your actions throughout the first half of the game were really just a delusion, and you really had been doing all these horrible things instead (sort of like the plots to "Angel Heart" or "The Machinist").
I also think that the huge piles of bodies are the doppelganger's victims.
We certainly know not everyone is a doppelganger just from talking to npcs. It seems unlikely that the doppelgangers would just finish there work without conquering the keep. Also I think Cadderly and Tethorol would probably be able to identify an entire town full of doppelgangers. Another consideration is that you are framed and imprisoned. If the doppelgangers were in charge why not just kill you when they took you into custody.
Another consideration is why these doppelgangers are in the catacombs. They have no reason to be there if they've already taken most of the keep. In fact it would greatly jeopardise there secrecy if the remaining
inhabitants noticed that half the keep kept randomly disappearing into the inaccessible catacombs. Equally if both the original and the doppelganger were in the tomb then how would those of the keep not pick up on the individuals absence
The bodies in the tombs hardest part to really explain. I expect some are simply the dead of candle keep who have been experimented on. The others must indeed be victims although they could easily be people from outside of candle keep as well as from within. I suspect the main use of the bodies was experimentation and victim disposal.
something I also think is worth taking into account is the npcs you meet in the catacombs it seems unlikely they wouldn't have more to say if the most disastrous explanation were indeed the case here.
We also already know that the doppelgangers don't need to kill/have anything to do with there victims because we see them assume forms for Elminster and the other legends whom there's no way they have killed. To me it just seems as though far too many issues arise with any explanation other then those in the catacombs being the doppelgangers who have yet to take there place in the keep.
The entire situation i found my playable character (and my entire party), gave me the creeps, chills, goosebumps, and scared the hell out of me, sit! Sick and psycho stuff, even for fantasy, even for a game. The only time i ever agree on anything with mad Irenicus, is the incarceration of one of them, inside his dungeon. Too bad he never had time to analyze the specimen, so as we could too learn something useful about this creepy incident...
Damn, whenever i see a greater doppelganger, or even a simple one, i always have at least 1 dispel, 1 summon (of good quality monsters), and 1 or 2 heavy offensive spells at the ready. I pause right when i spot them, and start bashing without loosing time or asking questions.
Doppelgangers in AD&D have the ability to read minds, so it would be pretty easy for them to figure out what would cause you the most emotional anguish.
Neutral seems to be the less popular choice, as far as implementation in a game goes.
At the same time, we know that not everyone is yet a doppelganger - even in the Catacombs, you're assisted by those two fighters that Obe the Illusionist sent to help you.
It seemed to me that the guy who runs Candlekeep (the one who you ask to see when you get arrested, but then refuses to listen and banishes you to death) was likely a doppelganger - however, the fact that he needs to formally order your death is an indication that the guards working under him are not doppelgangers.
I think it's worth noting that doppelgangers typically replace people who have some sort of authority and then direct their underlings to do adverse things - so it makes sense that the doppelgangers would have replaced Candlekeep's political leaders, but not so much "average" folk like Phlydia or Hull.
If you're going to infiltrate, it makes sense to go for authority figures. If you're successful, then everyone underneath you will fall in line. If you're unsuccessful, then it doesn't matter who you replaced - you've failed.
Edit: Of course, my favorite author had a fondness for saying the opposite, but he was talking on a one-man basis.
Also, the boss that puts you in prison is not a doppleganger. At least i dont think so. They have witnesses that you did it