How would 4e or the next edition (5e?) work for a CRPG's combat and character creation?
Lemernis
Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
We now have it basically confirmed that BG3 will use whatever the current D&D ruleset will be at the time of its release. Alas, 2nd ed. rules and kits will not be featured.
Loved the way 2nd ed. AD&D worked for a CRPG in the BG series. It was about as close to perfect a gaming experience as I've ever found.
I was not thrilled with the way NWN and NWN2 worked using edition 3.5.
4e I don't really know much about other than I've read it is polarizing among PnP players, and most comments by BG players are hostile towards it.
From what I'm reading 5e will hark back to earlier editions, which sounds good. But as it's being released incrementally it's still a bit abstract to me.
Can someone knowledgeable about the 4e, and what there is so far of 5e, conjecture how those rulesets would impact gameplay for BG3?
Loved the way 2nd ed. AD&D worked for a CRPG in the BG series. It was about as close to perfect a gaming experience as I've ever found.
I was not thrilled with the way NWN and NWN2 worked using edition 3.5.
4e I don't really know much about other than I've read it is polarizing among PnP players, and most comments by BG players are hostile towards it.
From what I'm reading 5e will hark back to earlier editions, which sounds good. But as it's being released incrementally it's still a bit abstract to me.
Can someone knowledgeable about the 4e, and what there is so far of 5e, conjecture how those rulesets would impact gameplay for BG3?
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In any case, if they REALLY want to butcher this series, why not choose a new title. Like "waterdeep" or "Calimport" at least when they make it I won't have to send them hate mail for ruining the good name of Baldur's gate.
The problem lies in the fact that the daily powers are far more powerful than anything else. This is balanced in pnp because you can't just rest whenever you want, a restriction much more difficult to implement in a video game. BG can be unbalanced already if you rest your spellcasters between each fight and use all of their best abilities at once. Imagine if you could do that with EVERY class... just scary to try and balance that out.
As far as 5e, the only thing I know is that the guy who owns my local game store is in the early testing and likes it a lot.
IN any case what I did hear, though can't remember where, that it is "modular" and can encompass the needs of both 3.5 and 4th edition players. Which is retarded. By trying to please everyone, no one will be pleased.
Time will tell whether it is any good, but BG is far too nostalgic to be "updated". For me at least.
I know that a party of clerics bards and mages can streamroll most content, just in 4e it doesn't really matter what class mix you have.
Still, I'm kinda curious now where this whole 4e thing came up myself. Was there an official announcement somewhere? I don't recall them saying anything about BG3 other than they wanted to make it after the two EEs.
As far as we know 6th edition could be out when the game is released, not 4th or 5th...
As for the other, let's see if 5e is any good before worrying about 6e.
Also, I found the source of the 'current D&D edition' quote: forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/3134/an-entirely-unofficial-poll-that-has-no-bearing-on-reality-baldurs-gate-3
I have my concerns on Balance, and more so on diversity, I fear it will suffer the same way 4th did in that aspect, or worse...
also if bg3 is 4e I won't get it. I know it works for some but it just isn't my thing.
5e however looks promising to me. You can actually get a playtest kit from wizards.com to get a look at an early draft.you can also give them some feedback on it.
The design philosophy-as far as I understand it- is basically to be everything to everyone. Of course this is impossible but whatever the new incarnation any transition will involve sacrifice on the part of the players-I want to cite thomas khun here
I imagine a basic bg3 install to include the "core" rules but with modules in the game options screen (though this is premature conjecture).
From what i've seen that I like with character creation they have "backgrounds"as well as "themes" both of which seem very "kit like".
Background is what it sounds like. Are you a peasant (hero?) or nobel? are you from a mountain village? That sort of thing. You get some bonuses both mechanical (I think in "skill" bonuses) and social bonuses (like lodging) iirc from this. Skills seem more open ended so rather than getting a bonus to "pick locks" you get a bonus when you perform actions involving locks or similar mechanical devices.
Themes remind me of some cross between kits and prestige classes. You might be an herbalist or a defender or something similar.
But its an early version. I'll see before I judge (now I want to cite socrates
Philip Daigle: "I'm sure some people would like to discuss which version of the D&D rules they would prefer, and that's fine. But be aware: if a BG3 were to happen, it would most likely use whatever current D&D rules WOTC has, rather than an older rule set. Some people may not like this, but keep in mind that it makes sense for a company to promote the latest incarnation of their ruleset and you can't really expect them to do otherwise."
I should have said 'high probability' rather than confirmation. It's what we are told to expect, let's put it that way.
5th edition.. well.. we will just have to wait and see how it turns out.
Don't PnP players who use older editions than whatever is current (and I'm reading that most do) also purchase older editions? There's no market for the customer who wants older versions?
If BG/BG2:EE is successful in large part precisely because it uses their best ruleset for a CRPG, perhaps that will send WotC a message. If all they read is dollar signs, let's hope the sales make it crystal clear to them.
If it is done in forth edition, I wouldn't bother to buy the game
If it is done in d&d next, then
1. D&D next wouldactually have to be good
2. I still would not buy it unless some of the ridiculous FR changes were removed or retconned.
1) Roll for a random encounter whenever they rest in a dungeon/wilderness area. Even if they set a watch (if they didn't... hehehe) the rest of the party are not optimally prepared for a fight. Were you sleeping in heavy armor? Assign a penalty for that. Took your armor off? That does baaaad things to your AC. As long as the player knows the possibility exists that they will be attacked while resting they will be reluctant to use it as a crutch.
2) If they go back to town, replenish/replace encounters they've already cleared when they return. Half a day's march to walk to town, 8 hours of sleep and half a day back? That's plenty of time to bring in some more orcs or kobolds or whatever the lvl 1 creature in the dungeon is. Plus, since they know the party is coming back they will have prepared new traps and tactics.
3) Give a time limit in game. The mayor's daughter will be sacrifced on the night of the full moon, which happens to be 2 days away... The town will be destroyed by a natural disaster unless you return the idol of goodness in time... It doesn't work for every quest but can be great to ratchet up the tension if the players still insist on taking their time. Even though the players can usually avoid the bad consequence directly (they can leave town before it hits the fan after all) they would fail their quest, get no reward or quest xp and eventually acquire a reputation as cowards and shirkers. If there are paladins in the group failing to protect the innocent or monks going back on their pledge to help, the sky's the limit.
Hope that helps.
Alternatively, the inhabitants of the dungeon may have moved out. If a group of goblins holes up in a cave and one day find half of their number dead, they'll GTFO as soon as possible, taking the loot and captured maiden/gentleman with them. Good luck finding them then.
My mistake when DMing at first (and still, occasionally) was making dungeons static places, where monsters waited calmly in every room for the adventurers to come and kill them.
When you think of them not as killzones but as living places with sentient creatures, it comes alive a lot more and becomes a more dynamic experience, causing you to think outside the gaming-view of 'should I give my players a penalty for leaving and resting' to 'Well of *course* that doesn't work like that.'
The actual game is the AD&D 2E first quest box, I like how simplified it is but can't wait to get a new campaign going where the players make their own characters.
I've started some before with some visiting friends and made them do that quite strict character generation where you get your dice rolls and that's it, no re-rolls, you pick the class that fits. I'm not sure if the players minded that or not - I like the idea that they play to their character's strengths, rather than decide the character's strengths.
It necessitates a different game style, but, in general, 4th Edition fairly well designed for porting to a PC/CRPG. The mechanics are actually well designed for a game (something that, and I know I'll catch flack for this, 3.X (and possibly earlier editions, but I never actually played them outside of BG/2) wasn't actually wasn't that good at). Although everyone always criticizes 4th for being an MMO (or at least did back in the day), what it actually emulates is a minis game/SRPG.
The actual effects would be interesting. Mechanically speaking (due to emphasis on coordination of effects, importance of positioning, interrupts), a 4th Edition game would likely need to be fully turn based as opposed to quasi-turn based/real time. Furthermore, the game would optimally find a way to integrate a grid.
I actually think you could manage a fully open world like BG, with a brief transition to a grid version of the field at the start of combat. It'd actually be kind of interesting to see if it could be implemented.
Honestly, I think it is quite a damn shame 4th never got a game. There was a lot of potential for really engaging mechanics.
It is way too early to say much about 5th Edition, but it is definitely an edition designed to appeal to the players who were lost with the 4th Edition transition and bears a lot of callbacks (for better and for worse) to older editions. Based on what I've seen though, you could structure it very similarly to the existing BG formula.