IRL there's overlap between intelligence and wisdom when it comes to interpretation of information. For the purposes of D&D in order to differentiate that, I think of the interpretive capacity to guide decisions more as intuition (i.e., more of a subjective gut "sense" than a formal, crystallized objective thought) about the best thing to do (aka judgment). A person with higher Int person could reason out and articulate the reasons why something is a best course of action. But it occurs as more of a gestalt for the average Int (or below average Int) person. And looked at this way, "best thing to do" can agree with alignment.
In the same sense, I like to think of Wisdom as reflecting EQ or the quotient of so-callled "emotional intelligence." So seeing into the character of a person, and having a kind of gestalt about what sort of person they are (especially when judgment is called for in that aspect) would fall under Wisdom for me.
Ok, I think this thread helped a lot. Here are the questions I made so far to determine wisdom:
([Wis.] This starts at nine, and is then modified as per answer) Do you often speak quickly, or get told off by those around you? (-1)yes (-)sometimes, but only as much as anyone else (+1)I can usually hold my tongue, and I rarely speak rashly
Do you believe strongly? (-1)no. I can be swayed easily. (-)I stick to my beliefs (+1)yes. I always stick up for my beliefs.
Do you often think about how you're everyday actions will play out I the long run? (-1)not really, it's the big picture that matters (-)only in the context of the everyday, really (+1)yes, small actions inevitably translate into big ones.
Do you often think of your place In The universe? (+1)all the time. (-)only when it's relevant to the situation (-1)I try to avoid thinking about how small I am
Do people often come to you for advice on big decisions? (-)only close friends (-1)no, people don't seem to talk to me about that sort of thing. (+1)yes, I seem to be asked more than I would think.
Do you usually ask advice from many sources before making a decision? (-1)no, I'm very independent (-)yes, I try to be well informed (+1)yes, and I make sure to change my actions accordingly.
I finished the questions for wisdom, some feedback would be appreciated:
Do you often speak quickly, or get told off by those around you? (-1)yes (-)sometimes, but only as much as anyone else (+1)I can usually hold my tongue, and I rarely speak rashly
Do you believe strongly? (-1)no. I can be swayed easily. (-)I stick to my beliefs (+1)yes. I always stick up for my beliefs.
Do you often think about how you're everyday actions will play out I the long run? (-1)not really, it's the big picture that matters (-)only in the context of the everyday, really (+1)yes, small actions inevitably translate into big ones.
Do you often think of your place In The universe? (+1)all the time. (-)only when it's relevant to the situation (-1)I try to avoid thinking about how small I am
Do people often come to you for advice on big decisions? (-)only close friends (-1)no, people don't seem to talk to me. (+1)yes, I seem to be asked more than I would think.
Do you usually ask advice from many sources before making a decision? (-1)no, I'm very independent (-)yes, I try to be well informed (+1)yes, and I change my actions accordingly.
There is whole in the ground 2' by 2' by 2'. How much dirt is in it, in cubic inches? (-1)8 (-)96 (+1)
Are you very put together and prepared? (-1)I'm usually pretty frazzled, and am usually ad-lobbing my life (-)Sometimes I'm caught at unawares, but I'm usually pretty good (+1) I make a point of being prepared and organized.
How important are words? (+1)very important. What you say defines you. (-)pretty important, but you can missay something and still be alright (-1)not super important. Actions speak louder than words.
Are you generally opinionated and argumentative? (-1)yes, I believe it is important to take a stand for what you believe in (+1)not usually, I have strong opinions but I try to say so in a calm, reserved way. (-)no, I usually try to stay out of any argument.
Wisdom, like intelligence, is a convenient dump stat for many classes, with the added advantage of not making you extremely easy to kill by mind flayers if you do use it as a dump stat. Also, arcane spells are way cooler than divine spells, and from a role-playing perspective, being a fool is more palatable than being a moron.
More seriously though, in human psychology wisdom and intelligence are pretty vaguely defined, but as most people understand them, they are far from completely distinct faculties.
I have often heard people describe the distinction as intelligence being academic aptitude and wisdom common sense. However, in my experience, stupid people almost never have a great deal of common sense, and even if smart people can lack good sense, I think being intelligent is a necessary if not sufficient condition for being wise.
Wisdom to my mind is knowledge and understanding accumulated through life experience, but all the life experience in the world wont do you much good if you lack that ability to acquire knowledge and understanding from it in the first place. The smarter you are, the more you will recall of your past and, more importantly, the better the understanding you will draw from those memories. A smarter person is more likely to see associations and patterns in his past experiences, and therefore be able to better anticipate events and reactions of others in the future.
To translate this into Baldur's Gate terms, whilst in real life it is possible to have an intelligence of 18 and a wisdom of say, 6 or 7, the reverse will never been true. People with an intelligence of 6 or 7 are never going to have 18 wisdom, because they simply lack the capacity to draw any great insights from their life experiences, no matter how varied or potentially illuminating they are.
i agree inteligence and wisdom are connected but of course it is possible to have low intelligence and high wisdom. people with down syndrome for example are less then average intelligent but are gentle, sensitive, and often described as profound influence on people around them etc. just like some cases of autism result in highly intelligent people that have trouble with emotional response and understanding the chaotic world and irrational patterns of "normal" humans around them. socio and psychopaths can hardly be called wise, but are mostly quite intelligent.
i would also argue an artist would need high wisdom to produce an artwork that touches and moves people (for good or ill). i think wisdom overlaps with realm of emotions, intuitive and sub/unconsious. sometimes you cannot explain why something is right it just feels right, empathy with yourself and others seems to me a big part of wisdom.
@meagloth despite d&d simplifications, i think you will have to include some questions that deal with emotions, intuition, empathy, dreams etc. if you strive to be accurate (and none of these have to have moral implications). i dont think you will approximate what you want by merely posing general, factual questions.
and btw, this question "There is whole in the ground 2' by 2' by 2'. How much dirt is in it, in cubic inches? (-1)8 (-)96 (+1)" made no sense as in how it connects to wisdom, maybe my own wisdom score is too low.
For the purposes of the game world--and some would assert in real life as well--another way of appreciating Wisdom is in the realm of spiritual faith. The Wis score could, in part, reflect the degree to which a person willingly and successfully acts as a vessel for divine inspiration and insight about what to do, sensing the character of other people, and the like, i.e., matters of judgment. So viewed in this way it's a measure of how open (and then how well connected) the person is to divinely inspired intuition and insight.
This makes Wis less dependent on Int. And that helps high Wis/average-to-low Int make a little more sense in the game world at least.
i agree inteligence and wisdom are connected but of course it is possible to have low intelligence and high wisdom. people with down syndrome for example are less then average intelligent but are gentle, sensitive, and often described as profound influence on people around them etc. just like some cases of autism result in highly intelligent people that have trouble with emotional response and understanding the chaotic world and irrational patterns of "normal" humans around them. socio and psychopaths can hardly be called wise, but are mostly quite intelligent.
i would also argue an artist would need high wisdom to produce an artwork that touches and moves people (for good or ill). i think wisdom overlaps with realm of emotions, intuitive and sub/unconsious. sometimes you cannot explain why something is right it just feels right, empathy with yourself and others seems to me a big part of wisdom.
But in what way are people with mental disabilities wise or insightful? I dont really see how being gentle and sensitive represents wisdom.
As for socially dysfunctional people who are intelligent, I didnt mention this in my last post for the sake of brevity, but my own view is that social awareness is also based on experience and a capacity to learn from that experience. They key difference is that the experience in question is drawn from introspection and an awareness of how you think and feel, and then you project yourself into the circumstances of others and consider how you have felt in comparable situations. Again, I think that other things being equal, smarter people are better at this.
It is true that academically intelligent people sometimes are socially dysfunctional, and often this seems innate rather than due to a lack of experience, but I would argue it is because some peoples' brains operate quite differently from the majority of the population (like with aspergers for example). Therefore, their own experience of their thoughts and feelings give them little insight into the thoughts and feelings of others whose brains operate in a quite different fashion. A much more common if less extreme example is men and women: the way their minds work differs quite significantly, and as a consequence people generally understand the thoughts and feelings of members of their own sex better than members of the opposite sex.
Therefore, what intelligent but socially dysfunctional people lack are psychological experiences that are similar to those of most others, albeit due to an innate difference in the way their minds operate.
Whereas in my experience, if someone is basically not very smart, even if they seem normal in their personality, they have a harder time empathising with others and considering things from their perspective. Granted, my experiences are hardly a comprehensive proof of anything, but I have found intelligent people to be the most genial and reasonable, and the most intransigent people I have encountered are generally pretty dim.
@RandyMcStud being gentle and sensitive in case of people with disabilities gives them their own kind of wisdom, the kind that is not necessarily based on insight that can be shared or understood by your or mine definition of wisdom. you would find many of them more fulfilled or happy than average person is, a point to be considered. ironically geniuses, saints and madmen afre often compared, because they transcend what we can grasp as common sense and logic, usual marks of inteligent and rational being.
i really believe this discussion is kind of pointless, wisdom has many faces and the one we are debating here is higly utilitarian, and presents itself as objective, whereas wisdom is a volatile mixture of emotional and very personal (self-consious) and relative, concepts that are not easily relatable to classical concept of intelligence but are intrinsic part of human make-up.
i just want to point out intuitive, emphatic, perhaps mystic side of wisdom, i hope it gets taken into consideration with questions for quiz.
@trinit tes, I know that wisdom, in the real world, is very much an emotional thing, but this is pretty difficult to test, because there is so much conflict around what's the appropriate response is, due to the complexity of social situations. I hardly think I'm qualified to test something that important and complex. What I'm trying to do here is indirectly test wisdom, by seeing whether a person has qualities similar to someone that is generally agreed upon as being wise, or whether they frequently engage in behavior that it's generally agreed upon as wisdom-producing(the meditation question, the your place in the universe question)
Also, the hole question: because the test starts at 9, and you can get up to 9 questions correct, there have to be some easy ones, otherwise you end up with minsc at 0wis instead of 6. It's a trick question like jack jack said, I know it's cheesy, but this is the one even minsc is supposed to get right. I'm trying to justify this with wisdom being partially lingual and verbal intelligence, because you need it for the wording of Wish. This is also a skill that increases with age, pretty much regardless of intelligence.
This is also a skill that increases with age, pretty much regardless of intelligence.
I did some really stupid things in my youth,but i learned a lot from my mistakes.
Agreed, on all counts. I have this thought that this is why there are more Wisdom times than those for any other stat - I've always thought the tomes were abstractions of gains made through Charname's experiences.
This is also a skill that increases with age, pretty much regardless of intelligence.
I did some really stupid things in my youth,but i learned a lot from my mistakes.
Agreed, on all counts. I have this thought that this is why there are more Wisdom times than those for any other stat - I've always thought the tomes were abstractions of gains made through Charname's experiences.
Precisely. I always thought of the tomes like this. Though I don't underestimate the power of a big book, especially a magic one. I think books like the tomes are not that far off reality.
Therefore, their own experience of their thoughts and feelings give them little insight into the thoughts and feelings of others whose brains operate in a quite different fashion. A much more common if less extreme example is men and women: the way their minds work differs quite significantly, and as a consequence people generally understand the thoughts and feelings of members of their own sex better than members of the opposite sex.
I agree - and disagree passionately at the same time. This particular duality indeed exists, but it's not a consequence of severe physiological differences. In fact, it's mostly the outcome of twisted expectations and... lack of brainpower in general, not having anything to do with sex, gender or whatever. Life is generally easier for those who bend and do what's expected of them and it takes quite a lot of willpower to think and act outside the box. That's particularly visible when it comes to differences between sexes and equally hurtful and/or limiting for all of them.
While some might disagree, I kinda like to define the intellectual abilities as the following in relation to academia: High Intelligence-what makes you succeed in hard sciences High Wisdom-what makes you succeed in social sciences High Charisma-what makes you succeed in arts and humanities
So high intelligence= Einstein, Hawking, Tesla high wisdom= Aristotle, Locke, Bastiat high charisma= Shakespeare, Steinbeck, Bach
People like Albert Schweitzer and Da Vinci: All three
Comments
In the same sense, I like to think of Wisdom as reflecting EQ or the quotient of so-callled "emotional intelligence." So seeing into the character of a person, and having a kind of gestalt about what sort of person they are (especially when judgment is called for in that aspect) would fall under Wisdom for me.
([Wis.] This starts at nine, and is then modified as per answer)
Do you often speak quickly, or get told off by those around you? (-1)yes (-)sometimes, but only as much as anyone else (+1)I can usually hold my tongue, and I rarely speak rashly
Do you believe strongly? (-1)no. I can be swayed easily. (-)I stick to my beliefs (+1)yes. I always stick up for my beliefs.
Do you often think about how you're everyday actions will play out I the long run? (-1)not really, it's the big picture that matters (-)only in the context of the everyday, really (+1)yes, small actions inevitably translate into big ones.
Do you often think of your place In The universe? (+1)all the time. (-)only when it's relevant to the situation (-1)I try to avoid thinking about how small I am
Do people often come to you for advice on big decisions? (-)only close friends (-1)no, people don't seem to talk to me about that sort of thing. (+1)yes, I seem to be asked more than I would think.
Do you usually ask advice from many sources before making a decision? (-1)no, I'm very independent (-)yes, I try to be well informed (+1)yes, and I make sure to change my actions accordingly.
Intelligence is knowing How things work.
Wisdom is knowing WHY things work.
the ability to do differential calculus is very smart. Understanding what the ramifications of catching a ball in flight might be would be wise.
Do you often speak quickly, or get told off by those around you? (-1)yes (-)sometimes, but only as much as anyone else (+1)I can usually hold my tongue, and I rarely speak rashly
Do you believe strongly? (-1)no. I can be swayed easily. (-)I stick to my beliefs (+1)yes. I always stick up for my beliefs.
Do you often think about how you're everyday actions will play out I the long run? (-1)not really, it's the big picture that matters (-)only in the context of the everyday, really (+1)yes, small actions inevitably translate into big ones.
Do you often think of your place In The universe? (+1)all the time. (-)only when it's relevant to the situation (-1)I try to avoid thinking about how small I am
Do people often come to you for advice on big decisions? (-)only close friends (-1)no, people don't seem to talk to me. (+1)yes, I seem to be asked more than I would think.
Do you usually ask advice from many sources before making a decision? (-1)no, I'm very independent (-)yes, I try to be well informed (+1)yes, and I change my actions accordingly.
There is whole in the ground 2' by 2' by 2'. How much dirt is in it, in cubic inches? (-1)8 (-)96 (+1)
Are you very put together and prepared? (-1)I'm usually pretty frazzled, and am usually ad-lobbing my life (-)Sometimes I'm caught at unawares, but I'm usually pretty good (+1) I make a point of being prepared and organized.
How important are words? (+1)very important. What you say defines you. (-)pretty important, but you can missay something and still be alright (-1)not super important. Actions speak louder than words.
Are you generally opinionated and argumentative? (-1)yes, I believe it is important to take a stand for what you believe in (+1)not usually, I have strong opinions but I try to say so in a calm, reserved way. (-)no, I usually try to stay out of any argument.
I have often heard people describe the distinction as intelligence being academic aptitude and wisdom common sense. However, in my experience, stupid people almost never have a great deal of common sense, and even if smart people can lack good sense, I think being intelligent is a necessary if not sufficient condition for being wise.
Wisdom to my mind is knowledge and understanding accumulated through life experience, but all the life experience in the world wont do you much good if you lack that ability to acquire knowledge and understanding from it in the first place. The smarter you are, the more you will recall of your past and, more importantly, the better the understanding you will draw from those memories. A smarter person is more likely to see associations and patterns in his past experiences, and therefore be able to better anticipate events and reactions of others in the future.
To translate this into Baldur's Gate terms, whilst in real life it is possible to have an intelligence of 18 and a wisdom of say, 6 or 7, the reverse will never been true. People with an intelligence of 6 or 7 are never going to have 18 wisdom, because they simply lack the capacity to draw any great insights from their life experiences, no matter how varied or potentially illuminating they are.
i would also argue an artist would need high wisdom to produce an artwork that touches and moves people (for good or ill). i think wisdom overlaps with realm of emotions, intuitive and sub/unconsious. sometimes you cannot explain why something is right it just feels right, empathy with yourself and others seems to me a big part of wisdom.
@meagloth despite d&d simplifications, i think you will have to include some questions that deal with emotions, intuition, empathy, dreams etc. if you strive to be accurate (and none of these have to have moral implications). i dont think you will approximate what you want by merely posing general, factual questions.
and btw, this question "There is whole in the ground 2' by 2' by 2'. How much dirt is in it, in cubic inches? (-1)8 (-)96 (+1)" made no sense as in how it connects to wisdom, maybe my own wisdom score is too low.
This makes Wis less dependent on Int. And that helps high Wis/average-to-low Int make a little more sense in the game world at least.
As for socially dysfunctional people who are intelligent, I didnt mention this in my last post for the sake of brevity, but my own view is that social awareness is also based on experience and a capacity to learn from that experience. They key difference is that the experience in question is drawn from introspection and an awareness of how you think and feel, and then you project yourself into the circumstances of others and consider how you have felt in comparable situations. Again, I think that other things being equal, smarter people are better at this.
It is true that academically intelligent people sometimes are socially dysfunctional, and often this seems innate rather than due to a lack of experience, but I would argue it is because some peoples' brains operate quite differently from the majority of the population (like with aspergers for example). Therefore, their own experience of their thoughts and feelings give them little insight into the thoughts and feelings of others whose brains operate in a quite different fashion. A much more common if less extreme example is men and women: the way their minds work differs quite significantly, and as a consequence people generally understand the thoughts and feelings of members of their own sex better than members of the opposite sex.
Therefore, what intelligent but socially dysfunctional people lack are psychological experiences that are similar to those of most others, albeit due to an innate difference in the way their minds operate.
Whereas in my experience, if someone is basically not very smart, even if they seem normal in their personality, they have a harder time empathising with others and considering things from their perspective. Granted, my experiences are hardly a comprehensive proof of anything, but I have found intelligent people to be the most genial and reasonable, and the most intransigent people I have encountered are generally pretty dim.
i really believe this discussion is kind of pointless, wisdom has many faces and the one we are debating here is higly utilitarian, and presents itself as objective, whereas wisdom is a volatile mixture of emotional and very personal (self-consious) and relative, concepts that are not easily relatable to classical concept of intelligence but are intrinsic part of human make-up.
i just want to point out intuitive, emphatic, perhaps mystic side of wisdom, i hope it gets taken into consideration with questions for quiz.
Also, the hole question: because the test starts at 9, and you can get up to 9 questions correct, there have to be some easy ones, otherwise you end up with minsc at 0wis instead of 6. It's a trick question like jack jack said, I know it's cheesy, but this is the one even minsc is supposed to get right. I'm trying to justify this with wisdom being partially lingual and verbal intelligence, because you need it for the wording of Wish. This is also a skill that increases with age, pretty much regardless of intelligence.
I did some really stupid things in my youth,but i learned a lot from my mistakes.
Charisma is the ability to voice that answer with charm and wit.
Wisdom is the ability to remain silent despite knowing the right answer.
Winters' babbling mode: off, back to the topic.
Intelligence: Knowing when to hold 'em
Wisdom: Knowing when to fold 'em
High Intelligence-what makes you succeed in hard sciences
High Wisdom-what makes you succeed in social sciences
High Charisma-what makes you succeed in arts and humanities
So
high intelligence= Einstein, Hawking, Tesla
high wisdom= Aristotle, Locke, Bastiat
high charisma= Shakespeare, Steinbeck, Bach
People like Albert Schweitzer and Da Vinci: All three
Charisma: making others fold 'em when they real should hold 'em