The Wave (Halberd)
elminster
Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
To not get the discussion on the equalizer any more off topic I'm creating this new thread for the Wave.
I'm also posting the complete conversation on the topic on the Equalizer up to this point. Apparently blockquotes don't work in main posts so the thread will start out a bit more messy than I'd like it.
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@SionIV
What are people on about the wave though? That weapon is awesome.
1d10 +4
Thac0 +4
15% Chance to deal 15 water damage
Slays fire elementals, efreeti, salamanders. (no save)
In what world is that an underwhelming weapon? It's one of the most powerful Halberds in the game, and you'll meet very many fire elementals and efreeti in the game. It takes a bit long to make, but it's still a damn powerful weapon.
@jackjack I love The Wave.
@jacobtan I like the story of the weapon, though I don't use it because it doesn't survive a power comparison with other weapons. I'll still make the weapon and keep it around for fun.
@SionIV Other than Carsomyr and FoA what weapons are more powerful than the wave in SoA?
That's a +4 weapon with a 15% chance to deal an additional 15 damage. It's the second best two handed weapon in SoA behind Carsomyr. So if you aren't playing a paladin and still want to wield a two handed weapon, The wave would be your best option.
@jacobtan
I'm not keen to go further about Wave on this thread since it specifically mentions the Equalizer.
But if we're going to discuss the merits of Wave, do open a new thread and quote figures and supporting argumentation. Objective claims are meaningless if they cannot be backed up with relevant evidence.
I will add that Wave is indeed a reasonably good two-handed weapon in SoA, so I agreed with your previous post, albeit with some caveats.
@elminster
As for The Wave well I'm not much of a math person but I'll wing it.
1d10+4 damage = 5-14 damage (average of 9.5 damage)
If there is a 15% chance of doing 15 damage then I assume that on any given attack the average extra damage dealt would be 2.25.
So that is what...11.75 damage?
Comparatively the Impaler (spear) does 14-19 piercing damage, an average of 16.5 damage, and you can actually get it before you enter the underdark. You can't hit certain enemies with it but it probably works on 95% of enemies.
Personally just speaking for non-Watcher's Keep, non-ToB two-handed weapons I'd probably take the Carsomyr, the Impaler, Spear of Withering, or Soul Reaver over the Wave.
@SionIV
Using the Impaler to prove damage is a silly thing to do as it's a niche weapon and +3.
The impaler is a +3 weapon. The only reason people keep taking it into damage arguments is the +10. It really isn't that good of a weapon, and it's not worth going grand master into spears while it's a great choice for halberds.
Carsomyr is paladin only.
Spear of Withering is worse than Wave in pretty much every way.
Soul Reaver deals the same damage you're just trading a little bit of Thac0 (which you won't need at this point of the game) against 15% chance to deal 15 damage and instant death to efreeti, salamanders and fire elementals. The one good thing for the Soul reaver is that it's slashing damage.
Would like to mention that the Spear category in BG is sadly lacking. While you can pick up an amazing Halberd +3 (+1 STR) right from outside of Irenicus dungeon, replace it with the Wave once you get to that point of the game and then replace the wave with the Ravager which is pretty much one if not the best weapon in the game.
The wave is a great weapon and the Halberd proficiency is really good in BG2. The wave is an important weapon for a Halberd user as it's the weapon to use between the Harmonium Halberd and Ravager.
Harmonium Halberd +3 (Chapter 2, out of Irenicus Dungeon)
The wave +4 (Chapter 6)
Ravager +4/+6 (ToB)
This will be the last post of mine, as not to derail thread.
[Edited] : The Impaler is +3, was thinking about another spear.
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My rebuttal to the last post will be my first post of the thread (just because at this point the thread probably looks like a mess).
I'm also posting the complete conversation on the topic on the Equalizer up to this point. Apparently blockquotes don't work in main posts so the thread will start out a bit more messy than I'd like it.
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@SionIV
What are people on about the wave though? That weapon is awesome.
1d10 +4
Thac0 +4
15% Chance to deal 15 water damage
Slays fire elementals, efreeti, salamanders. (no save)
In what world is that an underwhelming weapon? It's one of the most powerful Halberds in the game, and you'll meet very many fire elementals and efreeti in the game. It takes a bit long to make, but it's still a damn powerful weapon.
@jackjack I love The Wave.
@jacobtan I like the story of the weapon, though I don't use it because it doesn't survive a power comparison with other weapons. I'll still make the weapon and keep it around for fun.
@SionIV Other than Carsomyr and FoA what weapons are more powerful than the wave in SoA?
That's a +4 weapon with a 15% chance to deal an additional 15 damage. It's the second best two handed weapon in SoA behind Carsomyr. So if you aren't playing a paladin and still want to wield a two handed weapon, The wave would be your best option.
@jacobtan
I'm not keen to go further about Wave on this thread since it specifically mentions the Equalizer.
But if we're going to discuss the merits of Wave, do open a new thread and quote figures and supporting argumentation. Objective claims are meaningless if they cannot be backed up with relevant evidence.
I will add that Wave is indeed a reasonably good two-handed weapon in SoA, so I agreed with your previous post, albeit with some caveats.
@elminster
As for The Wave well I'm not much of a math person but I'll wing it.
1d10+4 damage = 5-14 damage (average of 9.5 damage)
If there is a 15% chance of doing 15 damage then I assume that on any given attack the average extra damage dealt would be 2.25.
So that is what...11.75 damage?
Comparatively the Impaler (spear) does 14-19 piercing damage, an average of 16.5 damage, and you can actually get it before you enter the underdark. You can't hit certain enemies with it but it probably works on 95% of enemies.
Personally just speaking for non-Watcher's Keep, non-ToB two-handed weapons I'd probably take the Carsomyr, the Impaler, Spear of Withering, or Soul Reaver over the Wave.
@SionIV
Using the Impaler to prove damage is a silly thing to do as it's a niche weapon and +3.
The impaler is a +3 weapon. The only reason people keep taking it into damage arguments is the +10. It really isn't that good of a weapon, and it's not worth going grand master into spears while it's a great choice for halberds.
Carsomyr is paladin only.
Spear of Withering is worse than Wave in pretty much every way.
Soul Reaver deals the same damage you're just trading a little bit of Thac0 (which you won't need at this point of the game) against 15% chance to deal 15 damage and instant death to efreeti, salamanders and fire elementals. The one good thing for the Soul reaver is that it's slashing damage.
Would like to mention that the Spear category in BG is sadly lacking. While you can pick up an amazing Halberd +3 (+1 STR) right from outside of Irenicus dungeon, replace it with the Wave once you get to that point of the game and then replace the wave with the Ravager which is pretty much one if not the best weapon in the game.
The wave is a great weapon and the Halberd proficiency is really good in BG2. The wave is an important weapon for a Halberd user as it's the weapon to use between the Harmonium Halberd and Ravager.
Harmonium Halberd +3 (Chapter 2, out of Irenicus Dungeon)
The wave +4 (Chapter 6)
Ravager +4/+6 (ToB)
This will be the last post of mine, as not to derail thread.
[Edited] : The Impaler is +3, was thinking about another spear.
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My rebuttal to the last post will be my first post of the thread (just because at this point the thread probably looks like a mess).
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Comments
As I already pointed out the Impaler does more damage than the Wave and its accessible earlier on. The 15 damage that the wave occasionally will do is an excellent amount of cold damage but I'll take reliable damage any day.
You brought up Carsomyr so I'm not sure why you are pointing out now that its paladin only.
Reliability is why I'll take the Withering Spear over it. The Withering Spear does 9-14 damage against enemies that don't resist its poison. That is an average of 11.5 damage.
I'd rather take a 0.25 overall damage reduction in exchange for reliable damage that I know will bypass a mage's stoneskin or mirror images. Against say undead (who tend to be the most likely to be immune to poison) its not like I'm going to be any more concerned about using it against them then I would be with any weapon that piercing or cold damage (which undead are often resistant against).
Soul Reaver on average does less damage than the Wave but I'll take an ability that gives my enemy -2 Thac0 on every hit than an ability that does extra damage 15% of the time. Enemy Thac0 does matter and as I understand it the ability stacks and lasts for 2 turns. Its not a weapon I'd make use of much to begin with, but if I was going to use a two handed weapon I'd still take it over using the Wave.
The Wave is a fantastic weapon to have in Yaga Shura's lair (and has a limited use in Abazigal's Lair). Outside of that its really not that special mechanically. Unless you don't do particular 2nd and 3rd chapter quests your encounter against Fire Elementals, Efreeti's, and Salamander's is going to be rare (at least by chapter 6). Besides, most salamander's you come across are going to be level 8 (SoA)-10 (ToB), which means you can either kill them with a Death Spell or a Greater Deathblow.
Also my response was a response to your statement that the Wave was the second best two-handed weapon in SoA. Your statement was interpreted by me, not unreasonably I might add, as suggesting that it was the second best two-handed weapon for the SoA portion of the game. Its not, as I've already shown. Even in ToB it only has limited use (especially since its slay ability doesn't work against Fire Giants).
Proficiency isn't that relevant in my book either way because the only NPC that starts out with it in halberds as far as I'm aware is Sarevok. So either way its not like you are really in possession of a weapon that you can use right of the bat while getting the APR bonus of specialisation. Unless of course charname has it (in which case a strength bonus probably won't make much difference unless you are evil or never went through BGEE and got the strength tome). The situation with spears is not substancially different as Anomen now has spear proficiency but can't use it. Valygar has spear specialisation but I'd never use that (or any halberd proficiency) over Katana specialisation. Either way I don't think the Wave is the second best two-handed weapon in SoA (whether you intended for that statement to mean the second best two-handed weapon to use in SoA or to acquire in SoA).
I brought up the Carsomyr because someone was bound to say it's the best two handed weapon in SoA, which is true. Sadly only paladins can use it.
Let's take a look at the Withering spear.
5-10 + 4 poison damage.
Now let's take a look at the Wave
5-14 + 15 Cold damage (15%)
Even without the cold damage the Wave deals the same maximum damage as the Withering spear with the poison taken into consideration. It deals a little less minimum damage, but it really isn't that big of a deal. The wave also has it's other special abilities that you add into the pool.
The wave deals more damage than the Withering spear and has bonus abilities. Efreeti and Fire Elementals are the most common of the djin/elementals. Also if memory serves right less enemies are immune to cold than poison.
The Soul Reavers +2 Thac0 depends on the enemy, not to mention it won't help that much in SoA and once you get to ToB you'll replace it with another two handed sword instead. If you put both of them on a fighter with grand mastery in their proficiency the wave will outperform the Soul Reaver. It really depends on what opponent you fight, as half of the enemies you'll end up fighting the - Thac0 will be pretty worthless. I do find the Thac0 ability of the Soul Reaver to be a nice addition, but it all depends on the enemy you fight, while the wave is useful against every enemy out there (with the exception of ice golems/salamanders).
The Wave is a wonderful +4 weapon that is amazing in places like Yaga Shura's lair. Many +3/+4 weapons don't have any worthwhile abilities on them, the Wave has an amazing 15 cold (15%) damage and special abilities that will make some fights trivial. Let's not forget that there is no save for the Fire elementals /Efreeti.
I would still rate it the second best two handed weapon in SoA (after Carsomyr) and if they had let us upgrade it to +6 in ToB and got some additional abilities it would have been a worthy ToB weapon.
The reason i'm talking proficiency is i'm taking these weapons into consideration on a CHARNAME. I would never put grand master in spear because they aren't that good, few and far between. But right from the start of BG2 you'll find some amazing Halberds, and the Wave will carry you to ToB where Ravager will carry you through the rest of the game.
The Harmonium Halberd you get at the start will put your STR to 19 or 20 if you're half-orc.
Yea it's modded content, but throwing spears are a blast!
My tastes are a bit different. I typically run at least two dual-wielding damage dealers in front to dish out heavy physical damage, so for two-handed weapons, I'm willing to go easy on damage and go for those that do special effect damage, like Carsomyr, Silver Sword or even Joril's Dagger. But Impaler is also a weapon of choice in certain situations when I just want to deal as much damage as I can.
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Would like to point out that many people forget that the Dragon's breath isn't a +4 with +5 elemental damage on top, it doesn't get the +4 damage at all.
+4 Thac0
1d10 Damage
+1 Cold
+1 Fire
+1 Electrical
+1 Acid
+1 Poison
So it actually deals less damage than most other +4 weapons. You only need one type of elemental damage to break through a mages protection, not 5 of them. And if you end up fighting against someone that is immune to 2 of your elemental damages, you'll deal less damage than a normal +3 halberd.
But if you don't have SCS + TobEx I don't think it's worth it.
I am not sure of this but I think that in the EE the Concentration check is also present, if so, this is also useful.
Plus, by the time you get this weapon, it will deal far more damage (in any way and type) than FoA+3, but of course it does not have 33% chance of Slow without save
"Plus, by the time you get this weapon, it will deal far more damage (in any way and type) than FoA+3, but of course it does not have 33% chance of Slow without save
FoA 3
5-10
+1 Fire
+1 Acid
+1 Cold
Dragon's Breath +4
1-10
+1 Fire
+1 Acid
+1 Electricity
+1 Cold
+1 Poison
And FoA is a one hander, while Dragon's Breath is a two hander.
Dragon's Breath
+1 Electricity
+1 Poison
FoA
+4 Minimum damage
+ Shield / Dual wield
FoA +3 is 5-10 (1d6+4). So it has an average physical damage of 7.5 and 10.5 with the elemental damages considered.
Dragon's Breath is 1d10. So an average physical damage of 5.5 and 10.5 with the elemental damages considered.
I'll admit that it has the potential to do heavy damage, but I think it's significant that the elemental damage (and resulting disruption) is linked to a 15% chance and you therefore have to hit 7 times to *guarantee* getting the benefit. For a two handed weapon - pre-GWW - that's 2 rounds on a grand master with improved haste.
Also - as others have said above - for disruption purposes the more elements you're using, the better.
As a vaguely relevant addendum, I personally never had any problems with any of Wave's "instant slay" creatures, so I'd consider that particular feature less of a selling point.
a. If you do a huge number of hits (e.g. 1000) you will find that the number of times you get the +15 damage will tend to be about 15% of all hits. The bigger the number of hits (10000, 100000, etc.) the closer the proportion is to 15%.
b. For any set of 7 consecutive hits that you make, the chance to have no +15 damage hits is actually:
(0.85)^7=0.3206=32%
Meaning if you're just up against a monster, and you do 7 hits, 32% of the time, you will get no bonus hits!
The corollary of the above is that the chance of you getting at least one +15 hit is:
100-32=68%
Since the chance to get at least one +15 hit is 68%, by inference, it is also possible to get two or more +15 hits if you're lucky.
As a reference, at the extreme end, the chance to get seven consecutive +15 hits out of seven hits is:
(0.15)^7=0.000002=0.002%
Still a chance, but very tiny. This is why sometimes we hear people saying "Oh I was lucky I got consecutive bonus hits" (e.g. critical hits) but sometimes we also hear people saying "Oh I got no bonus hits even after a long time".
As for status effect damage (e.g. slow from FoA, vorpal hit from Ravager, AotU and Silver Sword), we need to note that the reward is far bigger than a measly +15 damage (imagine vorpal hit on a marilith when it is at full strength!), hence these special effect weapons are also worth it.
Now I can agree with that, since the reason cited is personal preference.
And now... switching to "Wave loving" mode since I'm of N alignment and I've done enough "Wave bashing"...
We have observed that Wave's disruption ability via the +15 damage is irregular, the raw physical damage is outdone by Impaler, it doesn't deal special effect damage and has no equipped bonuses. But...
Wave can still be used to good effect as a niche weapon against fire elementals, efreeti and salamanders in TOB. I agree with @abacus that these monsters don't really pose a problem and I'll prefer to run them over with brute force anyway. However, Wave will allow the party to clean up these minion monsters more efficiently so that the party can quickly focus on the bosses.
I know probabilities are more complex than I said in my post, but I was just (rather lazily) pointing out what you say in your following post about reliable(smaller) versus potential(larger) damage.
Not that there is any sense in probability to begin with, of course.
(1-chance to hit/miss)^(number of hits)
Changing from random to pseudorandom will simply change the numbers to use in this equation. If the numbers are random, we use the dice size and other info that can be verified in NI. If the numbers are pseudorandom, we "create" new variables, for example:
Total number of results generated (a)
Total number of results generated that result in hit (b)
Total number of results generated that result in miss (c)
Then we use the above to find the real hit/miss %.
Say, a 1d20 attack roll. Hit on 16-20. Under normal circumstances, hit % is 25%.
Now, assume engine's quirks cause it to only generate 18 results, omitting 18 and 19. Since 18 and 19 indicate hit, and they are not generated by the engine, only 16, 17, and 20 indicate hit. With a total of 18 results generated by the "1d20 roll", 3 indicating hit, the real hit % is 3/18 = 16.7%. Then we put 16.7% into the equations instead of 25%. No change to the basic equation structure.
If there is no way of even knowing how results are generated... then we will have to beg the question. How do we know the engine generates numbers in a pseudorandom manner if we cannot even show why it is so?
P.S. Probability really does NOT make any sense most of the time... It only makes some sense if you are viewing it from a numbers point of view ^_^
Unnecessary philosophical revelations hidden in the spoiler
I won't comment on my beliefs but let's not get there. Such things can be contentious and I'd rather not risk stirring controversy when there's no need to.
If you don't buy it on philosophical grounds, okay. I can respect that and let's just leave it as that.
"Chance of draining victim of water (+15) damage"
So i did write water damage, though there isn't any water damage in the game. It kind of makes me wonder why it doesn't say +15 COLD damage or if it's just +15 damage as in 'normal/physical'.
Celestial fury for an example does say it's Lightning damage, while the wave only say "15 damage".
I'm glad that it's corrected, less confusing now.
A 1H weapon allows you to use either a shield (extra AC and some shields have nice immunities) or a second 1H weapon (Belm/Kundane are particularly good here).
So unless the 2H weapon is truly epic, such as Carsomyr with its +5, dispel on hit, 50% magic resistance, and bonus damage to chaotic evil, it's hard to justify using it.
The Wave, while decent, just doesn't fall into this category so there are always better alternatives. It also doesn't help that none of the NPCs have halberd proficiency as default.
Mechanically the 2H are inferior to 1H weapons, especially in SOA.
TOB tend to close the gap (thanks to GWW and weapons like ravager) but never completely
Even without taking dual wielding or shield into account :
- celestial fury does 9.5 average damage+ stun effect. Available from the start -> better than wave
- usuno's blade 9.5 average damage. Not much worse than wave and available much earlier
- FOA : 10.5 average damage + slow effect. available from the start -> better than wave
So wave may be the second best 2 hander in SOA but that really does not say much.
Unless you absolutely want to RP a hallebard wielding warrior, there is much better choices out there.
2 handers lovers are better choosing 2H swords which are good all over the course of the game (lilarcor, silver sword) and more versatile