(Quote)
All these years since BG2 was released I've played all the way through TOB once. Usually I play and towards the end of SOA I'm getting HLAs and the power meter goes off the chart and it's time to start over once Irenicus dies and Watchers Keep has been entered.
The TOB plot is just lame. You are dragged on rails along the plot while being given +6 Hackmasters every fight and every guard, farmer and bad guy has at least +4 weapons.
I am going to necro this thread because I have been drinking and playing the recent console release, and your comment was falsified to steer someone away from playing something they would almost certainly enjoy, having played the rest of the BG series.
There is not a single trash mob in the game with a +4 weapon. They start out in Saradush mostly having +1 weapons, but some non-magical, and then by the end of the game they're using +1 to +3. The first "boss" you kill only drops +3 weapons. The only +4 weapons are found as loot or from a specific NPC and are unique (the only generic +4 item in TOB are +4 bullets), with some being upgradeable and some not.
Aside from the bullets, there are maybe 20 items (including the armor) that are anywhere between +4 and +6 in the game. There are only like 3 +6 weapons total (and none drop as +6, so they can't be found as such in any fight), so all of that is obviously not given anywhere close to every fight.
The story is not nearly as good as BG1 or 2, but it's also only one plotline and a much shorter game. It was made to let fans reach the divinity they wanted to, or at least fight against it on that scale. It was fun.
But you, sir are (or were) charlaton, trying to convince someone to dislike a game you do before they even try it! That is decidedly *not* fun. I hope that this person did give TOB a try and didn't regret it, and that karma caused you some minor inconvenience (maybe a toe stubbing) for this trickery. Good day!
(Quote)
All these years since BG2 was released I've played all the way through TOB once. Usually I play and towards the end of SOA I'm getting HLAs and the power meter goes off the chart and it's time to start over once Irenicus dies and Watchers Keep has been entered.
The TOB plot is just lame. You are dragged on rails along the plot while being given +6 Hackmasters every fight and every guard, farmer and bad guy has at least +4 weapons.
I am going to necro this thread because I have been drinking and playing the recent console release, and your comment was falsified to steer someone away from playing something they would almost certainly enjoy, having played the rest of the BG series.
There is not a single trash mob in the game with a +4 weapon. They start out in Saradush mostly having +1 weapons, but some non-magical, and then by the end of the game they're using +1 to +3. The first "boss" you kill only drops +3 weapons. The only +4 weapons are found as loot or from a specific NPC and are unique (the only generic +4 item in TOB are +4 bullets), with some being upgradeable and some not.
Aside from the bullets, there are maybe 20 items (including the armor) that are anywhere between +4 and +6 in the game. There are only like 3 +6 weapons total (and none drop as +6, so they can't be found as such in any fight), so all of that is obviously not given anywhere close to every fight.
The story is not nearly as good as BG1 or 2, but it's also only one plotline and a much shorter game. It was made to let fans reach the divinity they wanted to, or at least fight against it on that scale. It was fun.
But you, sir are (or were) charlaton, trying to convince someone to dislike a game you do before they even try it! That is decidedly *not* fun. I hope that this person did give TOB a try and didn't regret it, and that karma caused you some minor inconvenience (maybe a toe stubbing) for this trickery. Good day!
As a true charlaton, he doesn't even know what ToB weapons are actually called, and thinks they're called Hackmasters. Ha! Smeagolheart finally debunked!
Though ToB isn't as well-crafted as the main BG games and (especially unmodded) has its shortcomings, there are at least two things that should be said in its defense:
1. Coming up with satisfying endgames is trickier than coming up with inspiring fresh starts where options are many and player agency is high. Sequels and expansions often try to circumvent this by diminishing or resetting your power level, switching main characters, or switching out most or all of the setting.
ToB, in this sense, doesn't take the easy way out. It lets Charname go all the way to achieve his/her destiny, essentially what you've been working towards since leaving Candlekeep.
The same could be said for general D&D mechanics and lore: low-level settings with gnolls and kobolds are more easily handled than demiliches, multiple-dragon battles and going toe-to-toe with parts of the FR pantheon -- and most likely in BG3 we will once more return to the gnolls and kobolds and new introductions to everything. But again, ToB doesn't shy away from the endgame, but acknowledges what you've become and actually lets you duke it out with (more or less) the most powerful beings available.
2. The general notion of restartitis, especially once past a certain point, is hardly limited to the BG trilogy. Pick any long and story-driven game and odds are many more players will have been through the beginning stages multiple times than who actually finished it. There are many plausible reasons, including general fatigue with the game, ideas for new/fresh character concepts, increased linearity as the plot points converge and of course not least a creeping sense of emptiness as your time with this particular Charname nears its end.
i find tob plot too linear and shame on modders for that.
as the modders in the past had created awesome side quests or npcs with their own quests, but for soa only, while is tob that is really missing them imho. at least the EE developers gave us some new content for their new npcs.
also wk was created as a part of tob, even if in EE tob+wk are no more an expansion, but part of BG2. who criticize tob for the lack of plot and side quests tend to forget that wk, a really interesting and complex dungeon to play, is a part of tob, even if playable in soa, so the former expansion gave 2 good plots, even if both are quite linear, while the soa structure is more based on many side quests that a party can optionally do or avoid, the whole chap 2 is entirely based on that concept.
but i like tob from an other point of view, i like to play at high levels, levels that for a pnp dragons and dungeon players should not even exist, with powerful archmages that have a lot of options with their high level spells, hla, super powerful weapons and all the rest.
the whole soa i strive to reach new levels, to gain access to more levels of spells, to get better weapons and items. then when the goal is reached, somewhere after returning from the underdark, very few things are left to do.
to clear the bodhi's lair, that if you happen to have a cleric is a 5 min work or better firework as all but the boss explode in no time, the elves city, that is quite easy for a party of that level, and a couple of battles with the soa boss.
i can really not enjoy using the power that i worked so hard to get...
tob is the place where i can finally use it, experiment all the tactics and spell combos that now the party can pull off. so i have a lot of fun in playing it. even if at that level the battles are not hard at all if you have been hardened playing the tactics mod irenicus dungeon with low level parties or solo charnames.
i can probably take down draconis in less then 3 rounds, and the unmodded sendai takes a little more time, as i have to kill her in many forms, but not much effort.
but here kicks the joy of experimenting, of trying each battle with different tactics, as high level parties give a lot of different possible approaches. almost every high level npc can solo each battle, just as the solo charnames of different classes do in our solo runs, so why not send aerie, haer dalis, nalia or valygar solo to fight and see what i can pull off? or maybe i will fight with the whole party, but only ranged, no mlee and damaging spells permitted, or only magic or only mlee, using only potions and items, but no spells or ranged attacks.
i have a lot of fun playing tob this way, i often reload the same battles over and over trying each time a different approach, and my tob runs are never boring or linear, the plot is so, but i find ways to make it still really interesting to play. i do it also in vanilla soa, but tob gives more options for that as the high levels give more alternatives to try.
tob does have mods exclusively for it. there is of course Ascension but there is also wheel's of prophecy that makes the 2nd half more non linear and adds more dialogue options for certain scenes
and my favorite reunion a quest mod that helps flesh out charname's mother.
ascension is a difficulty enhancing mod, so does not really change the plot or add more content, but i admit that i did not know about the other 2, that i will surely try.
compared to the larger number of side quests and npcs with personal quest available for soa it is still very few, but 2 is way better then 0, thank you for letting me know about their existence.
Longer Road, while flawed, was one of the few mods that struck the sort of note of grandeur that you need for high level play at the culmination of the story. Really ToB would be better as mostly boss fights - tackled in an order of your choice and scaling accordingly - punctuated by some scenes to heighten the tension and set the stakes. There's not much need for pointless intervening combats unless they have a special story or strategic reason (e.g. you can't rest and they're being driven at you to exhaust your resources.)
im must be one of those weirdos out there that actually don't mind ToB that much, in fact i usually have fun playing it until i hit the abizigal area ( where lots of my play throughs end ) sometimes i even start a team fresh in ToB just for the lewls
now with that being said the reason why i stop at the abizigal area is because on insane difficulty the only way to beat draconis and abizigal is with dirty cheese because their damage output is obtuse, especially if you have low HP characters in your party like jan, aerie or the like, and i hate using exploits to win fights, but i also refuse to lower the difficulty setting so usually that is where it ends with me
but when it comes to "dnd epic PC gameplay" compared with the NWN series, i find ToB to be the best ( NWN 1 isn't too bad, but chapter 3 is truly a chore, and NWN 2 i find the epic part extremely boring bleh ) but that is just my opinion
the reason why i stop at the abizigal area is because on insane difficulty the only way to beat draconis and abizigal is with dirty cheese because their damage output is obtuse, especially if you have low HP characters in your party like jan, aerie or the like, and i hate using exploits to win fights, but i also refuse to lower the difficulty setting so usually that is where it ends with me
it really surprises me to read this from you, as i know from your comments that you are a capable and experienced player, even if you have a play style very different from mine.
i am surprised as both my jan and aerie have actually soloed draconis more then one time, and i would say without much effort.
it is true that they don't have a korgan like hp pool, but they have other ways to survive, actually i find the battle easier with them then with korgan or an other plain fighter, that has to rely only on his hp, on potions items and his weapons (ok korgan has also the rage that is really helpful...).
a high level cleric, over lev 20, can get 40 hp more from the boost of holy power and righteous magic, with a less then optimal con, like aerie, get some more hp from duhm con increase, so can go to the fight with about 50 more hp, that is way less then the one a korgan at the same level has, but is not the one she has not buffed and at lev 10.
and they both have mirror images, stoneskin, protection from magic weapons, spell immunity to be sure that their protections are not dispelled or to make them completely immune to certain spells, as well as spells that make their ac lower, starting from the one the best bracers, or a robe of vecna or archmage grant.
unless you call dirty cheese to use the spells a mage or cleric has for the very reason those spells are created, protect and buff, i don't see how draconis or his mother can harm them for quite a long time, so i fail to see the low hp issue as a real one.
they also should have at that point spells like true sight, as draconis likes to disappear at will, projected image, that with rov, aop and improved alacrity let them unleash a whole spell book at the cost of a single lev 7 spell, spells that lower magical resistance (and not necessarily the cheesy use of the protective cleric one aerie can do), breach both magical and combat defenses, lower st and on and over.
she, buffed, can dw for about 100 dmg/round, with good thac0, he has less fighting capability, but can dispel illusions as will being a thief, and against the second form of draconis it is very helpful for the party, they can both summon a planetar that as sees trough invisibility is very helpful to track how draconis moves as he is invisible, also aerie's deva can do it, they both at 3M xp have at least 1 lev 9 arcane spell, jan2 being a specialist mage.
here i am talking only of proper use of arcane and divine spells, i hope that you don't consider cheesy casters that use their spells. and i find that people like aerie or jan make way easier those end game battles against dragons for a party as they can tank, they can use their spells to get rid of enemy magical resistance and protections, can greater malison and doom him, and i am not even talking of the SoTM and his dispel on hit, that with buffed aerie's thac0 can be very effective, as starting from tob you don't have it and anyway some players regard as cheesy.
draconis and abizigal's damage output is obtuse, it is true, but it is exactly the reason why i am glad to have people like aerie or jan in the party when i face them, i would be way more scared to go to those battles with only fighters with their huge hp pool, but very few more then their weapons and thac0 to hope to bash them faster then how themselves are bashed. and still it is possible to solo those battles with a plain fighter, potions and items are there to make it possible, it has been done not only on insane, but even with mods that make those battles even more difficult, by more then one player.
to each one his play style and, even more important, his way to have fun in the game, but i am really surprised to read that an experienced player like you has problems in having aerie or jan survive to those battles, they are the ones that when i do them usually get not even scratched in my parties.
note: spoilers added to avoid the text wall, there is really nothing inside that can spoil anything, new players feel free to open them .
@gorgonzola as you said that even a plain fighter solo can win those battles, but that would require and outrageous amount of cheese to do so, and i hate using cheese tactics, if im going to use cheese tactics to win i might as well just crtl+y everything
now when i play, i play very lazily, if a hard fight is coming up, i will buff up appropriately and then go into battle, and depending if battle is going good or bad, i should be able to continue on from there and still come out victorious in the end
the problem i have with the 2 dragon fights is that they deal way too much damage to quickly ( or just straight up chunk my fools in one hit so i can even revive them ) ironically when i made teams that had 6 "fighter" types on them i had a much easier time because then i would just get everyone to greater whirlwind at once, and usually that would be enough to finish the battle off
also, for some bizarre reason, abizigal is immune to time stop, which annoyed the piss out of me, why? why is he immune? what makes him so special? no other bhaal spawn is, plus he wasn't immune in the vanilla ugh
plus im not one of those players who use PI and unload spell books worth of diarrhea on to enemies using improved alacrity because that is just broken as hell
although last time i fought draconis i did have to use timestop + improved alacrity to win, or else he would just chunk my team with or without buffs
for some weird reason those 2 dragons have a "cannot seem to fail remove magic" with a "infinite range breath weapon" every time i fight them, so meh
every other battle in the entire series i have no problems with, but those 2 battles are just boring and tedious, and if a fight requires me to do 10 minutes of buffing and prep to win, bleh, pass
@sarevok57
as @bob_veng told a single spell make all the debuffing strategies those dragons use not effective, as they seem to don't have RROR memorized.
also what each one consider broken as hell is very subjective, if to use spells and items for the very reason they are created is cheesy to have 6 GWW at once, 60 attacks in just 6 seconds, can be regarded by others as stinky.
those are very subjective evaluations and any way related to the offensive part of the equation, for the defensive part, surviving to the dragons attacks, you missed just a spell in your way to solve the equation, then both aerie and jan can become the best tanks giving relief to your fighters, even if they don't cast offensive spells or in the case of the CM bash him with flail and mace at all.
and having someone that can tank, lower resistance, malison and doom, true sight and breach is really helpful even if you plan to use the raw fighters power to take them down.
even if you don't use PI, rov and aop, that make the fighters redundant.
CC, sequencers and trigger are in the game for a reason your "door opener" and "healer" can do all those things even starting from tob, so without rov and aop, even without using PI or improved alacrity, in a very short time.
about the time stop immunity i am not 100% sure but i am pretty convinced that was still there in the original and any way in my experience time stop is greatly overrated in most situations, as a well protected mage can anyway do what he is supposed to do also without it.
with PI, IA rov and aop he is simply so fast that the dragon can not even react, is dead before he even realize what is happening and start to target the clone, or the mage if a clone is not used, with a sequencers and contingencies strategy he can try to react only to clash against the mage's protections.
I personally use time stop maybe in a couple of instances in all the game, if i have a FM that want to abuse of the fact that all physical attacks are successful during the ts, for 30 granted hits with staff of the ram or impaler, even without pips in them, or if i want to equip a jan, imoen or aerie improved hasted with the 2 most damaging 1handers and send them for 12 hits that hit without fail, but is a spell that most of my sorcerers don't even learn.
i find that the best and the only really worth use of ts is in the advanced spell trap based infinite spell strategy, that is still working in EE even if way less effective then in the original, there ts becomes one of the key factors of the combo.
EDIT: combo that is probably one of the most stinky pieces of cheese in all the game according to your taste, and is perfectly fine, i name it only because imo is the only very issue where ts is really needed and can not be avoided.
Comments
I am going to necro this thread because I have been drinking and playing the recent console release, and your comment was falsified to steer someone away from playing something they would almost certainly enjoy, having played the rest of the BG series.
There is not a single trash mob in the game with a +4 weapon. They start out in Saradush mostly having +1 weapons, but some non-magical, and then by the end of the game they're using +1 to +3. The first "boss" you kill only drops +3 weapons. The only +4 weapons are found as loot or from a specific NPC and are unique (the only generic +4 item in TOB are +4 bullets), with some being upgradeable and some not.
Aside from the bullets, there are maybe 20 items (including the armor) that are anywhere between +4 and +6 in the game. There are only like 3 +6 weapons total (and none drop as +6, so they can't be found as such in any fight), so all of that is obviously not given anywhere close to every fight.
The story is not nearly as good as BG1 or 2, but it's also only one plotline and a much shorter game. It was made to let fans reach the divinity they wanted to, or at least fight against it on that scale. It was fun.
But you, sir are (or were) charlaton, trying to convince someone to dislike a game you do before they even try it! That is decidedly *not* fun. I hope that this person did give TOB a try and didn't regret it, and that karma caused you some minor inconvenience (maybe a toe stubbing) for this trickery. Good day!
I agree entirely with you. Shame on @smeagolheart.
1. Coming up with satisfying endgames is trickier than coming up with inspiring fresh starts where options are many and player agency is high. Sequels and expansions often try to circumvent this by diminishing or resetting your power level, switching main characters, or switching out most or all of the setting.
ToB, in this sense, doesn't take the easy way out. It lets Charname go all the way to achieve his/her destiny, essentially what you've been working towards since leaving Candlekeep.
The same could be said for general D&D mechanics and lore: low-level settings with gnolls and kobolds are more easily handled than demiliches, multiple-dragon battles and going toe-to-toe with parts of the FR pantheon -- and most likely in BG3 we will once more return to the gnolls and kobolds and new introductions to everything. But again, ToB doesn't shy away from the endgame, but acknowledges what you've become and actually lets you duke it out with (more or less) the most powerful beings available.
2. The general notion of restartitis, especially once past a certain point, is hardly limited to the BG trilogy. Pick any long and story-driven game and odds are many more players will have been through the beginning stages multiple times than who actually finished it. There are many plausible reasons, including general fatigue with the game, ideas for new/fresh character concepts, increased linearity as the plot points converge and of course not least a creeping sense of emptiness as your time with this particular Charname nears its end.
as the modders in the past had created awesome side quests or npcs with their own quests, but for soa only, while is tob that is really missing them imho. at least the EE developers gave us some new content for their new npcs.
also wk was created as a part of tob, even if in EE tob+wk are no more an expansion, but part of BG2. who criticize tob for the lack of plot and side quests tend to forget that wk, a really interesting and complex dungeon to play, is a part of tob, even if playable in soa, so the former expansion gave 2 good plots, even if both are quite linear, while the soa structure is more based on many side quests that a party can optionally do or avoid, the whole chap 2 is entirely based on that concept.
but i like tob from an other point of view, i like to play at high levels, levels that for a pnp dragons and dungeon players should not even exist, with powerful archmages that have a lot of options with their high level spells, hla, super powerful weapons and all the rest.
the whole soa i strive to reach new levels, to gain access to more levels of spells, to get better weapons and items. then when the goal is reached, somewhere after returning from the underdark, very few things are left to do.
to clear the bodhi's lair, that if you happen to have a cleric is a 5 min work or better firework as all but the boss explode in no time, the elves city, that is quite easy for a party of that level, and a couple of battles with the soa boss.
i can really not enjoy using the power that i worked so hard to get...
tob is the place where i can finally use it, experiment all the tactics and spell combos that now the party can pull off. so i have a lot of fun in playing it. even if at that level the battles are not hard at all if you have been hardened playing the tactics mod irenicus dungeon with low level parties or solo charnames.
i can probably take down draconis in less then 3 rounds, and the unmodded sendai takes a little more time, as i have to kill her in many forms, but not much effort.
but here kicks the joy of experimenting, of trying each battle with different tactics, as high level parties give a lot of different possible approaches. almost every high level npc can solo each battle, just as the solo charnames of different classes do in our solo runs, so why not send aerie, haer dalis, nalia or valygar solo to fight and see what i can pull off? or maybe i will fight with the whole party, but only ranged, no mlee and damaging spells permitted, or only magic or only mlee, using only potions and items, but no spells or ranged attacks.
i have a lot of fun playing tob this way, i often reload the same battles over and over trying each time a different approach, and my tob runs are never boring or linear, the plot is so, but i find ways to make it still really interesting to play. i do it also in vanilla soa, but tob gives more options for that as the high levels give more alternatives to try.
and my favorite reunion a quest mod that helps flesh out charname's mother.
compared to the larger number of side quests and npcs with personal quest available for soa it is still very few, but 2 is way better then 0, thank you for letting me know about their existence.
now with that being said the reason why i stop at the abizigal area is because on insane difficulty the only way to beat draconis and abizigal is with dirty cheese because their damage output is obtuse, especially if you have low HP characters in your party like jan, aerie or the like, and i hate using exploits to win fights, but i also refuse to lower the difficulty setting so usually that is where it ends with me
but when it comes to "dnd epic PC gameplay" compared with the NWN series, i find ToB to be the best ( NWN 1 isn't too bad, but chapter 3 is truly a chore, and NWN 2 i find the epic part extremely boring bleh ) but that is just my opinion
i am surprised as both my jan and aerie have actually soloed draconis more then one time, and i would say without much effort.
a high level cleric, over lev 20, can get 40 hp more from the boost of holy power and righteous magic, with a less then optimal con, like aerie, get some more hp from duhm con increase, so can go to the fight with about 50 more hp, that is way less then the one a korgan at the same level has, but is not the one she has not buffed and at lev 10.
and they both have mirror images, stoneskin, protection from magic weapons, spell immunity to be sure that their protections are not dispelled or to make them completely immune to certain spells, as well as spells that make their ac lower, starting from the one the best bracers, or a robe of vecna or archmage grant.
unless you call dirty cheese to use the spells a mage or cleric has for the very reason those spells are created, protect and buff, i don't see how draconis or his mother can harm them for quite a long time, so i fail to see the low hp issue as a real one.
they also should have at that point spells like true sight, as draconis likes to disappear at will, projected image, that with rov, aop and improved alacrity let them unleash a whole spell book at the cost of a single lev 7 spell, spells that lower magical resistance (and not necessarily the cheesy use of the protective cleric one aerie can do), breach both magical and combat defenses, lower st and on and over.
draconis and abizigal's damage output is obtuse, it is true, but it is exactly the reason why i am glad to have people like aerie or jan in the party when i face them, i would be way more scared to go to those battles with only fighters with their huge hp pool, but very few more then their weapons and thac0 to hope to bash them faster then how themselves are bashed. and still it is possible to solo those battles with a plain fighter, potions and items are there to make it possible, it has been done not only on insane, but even with mods that make those battles even more difficult, by more then one player.
to each one his play style and, even more important, his way to have fun in the game, but i am really surprised to read that an experienced player like you has problems in having aerie or jan survive to those battles, they are the ones that when i do them usually get not even scratched in my parties.
note: spoilers added to avoid the text wall, there is really nothing inside that can spoil anything, new players feel free to open them
now when i play, i play very lazily, if a hard fight is coming up, i will buff up appropriately and then go into battle, and depending if battle is going good or bad, i should be able to continue on from there and still come out victorious in the end
the problem i have with the 2 dragon fights is that they deal way too much damage to quickly ( or just straight up chunk my fools in one hit so i can even revive them ) ironically when i made teams that had 6 "fighter" types on them i had a much easier time because then i would just get everyone to greater whirlwind at once, and usually that would be enough to finish the battle off
also, for some bizarre reason, abizigal is immune to time stop, which annoyed the piss out of me, why? why is he immune? what makes him so special? no other bhaal spawn is, plus he wasn't immune in the vanilla ugh
plus im not one of those players who use PI and unload spell books worth of diarrhea on to enemies using improved alacrity because that is just broken as hell
although last time i fought draconis i did have to use timestop + improved alacrity to win, or else he would just chunk my team with or without buffs
for some weird reason those 2 dragons have a "cannot seem to fail remove magic" with a "infinite range breath weapon" every time i fight them, so meh
every other battle in the entire series i have no problems with, but those 2 battles are just boring and tedious, and if a fight requires me to do 10 minutes of buffing and prep to win, bleh, pass
it seems you're not using it
as @bob_veng told a single spell make all the debuffing strategies those dragons use not effective, as they seem to don't have RROR memorized.
also what each one consider broken as hell is very subjective, if to use spells and items for the very reason they are created is cheesy to have 6 GWW at once, 60 attacks in just 6 seconds, can be regarded by others as stinky.
those are very subjective evaluations and any way related to the offensive part of the equation, for the defensive part, surviving to the dragons attacks, you missed just a spell in your way to solve the equation, then both aerie and jan can become the best tanks giving relief to your fighters, even if they don't cast offensive spells or in the case of the CM bash him with flail and mace at all.
and having someone that can tank, lower resistance, malison and doom, true sight and breach is really helpful even if you plan to use the raw fighters power to take them down.
even if you don't use PI, rov and aop, that make the fighters redundant.
CC, sequencers and trigger are in the game for a reason
about the time stop immunity i am not 100% sure but i am pretty convinced that was still there in the original and any way in my experience time stop is greatly overrated in most situations, as a well protected mage can anyway do what he is supposed to do also without it.
with PI, IA rov and aop he is simply so fast that the dragon can not even react, is dead before he even realize what is happening and start to target the clone, or the mage if a clone is not used, with a sequencers and contingencies strategy he can try to react only to clash against the mage's protections.
I personally use time stop maybe in a couple of instances in all the game, if i have a FM that want to abuse of the fact that all physical attacks are successful during the ts, for 30 granted hits with staff of the ram or impaler, even without pips in them, or if i want to equip a jan, imoen or aerie improved hasted with the 2 most damaging 1handers and send them for 12 hits that hit without fail, but is a spell that most of my sorcerers don't even learn.
i find that the best and the only really worth use of ts is in the advanced spell trap based infinite spell strategy, that is still working in EE even if way less effective then in the original, there ts becomes one of the key factors of the combo.
EDIT: combo that is probably one of the most stinky pieces of cheese in all the game according to your taste, and is perfectly fine, i name it only because imo is the only very issue where ts is really needed and can not be avoided.