Hahahaha I was thinking the same as @Elrandir. I think his question cannot be quantified because of various qualitative aspects such as equipped effects like free action, stun upon hit, mind shield etc and because of factors such as the amount of available enchanted weapons per class (how do you value that), and also their accessibility (when do you acquire them, how difficult is it to acquire them etc.). Neverheless the math at least teaches me new things
I believe we are merely describing the different sides of the same coin and I will briefly summarize and also to relate our computations to the opening thread
Quoting myself, let us look at the basic structure of damage computation:
(X+Y)(n)
X refers weapon damage Y refers to damage bonuses n refers to APR
n has a multiplier effect hence increasing APR is essential for maximizing damage.
Comparing X with Y, the nature of the AD&D game is such that X is often lower than Y. Considering normal weaponry, the largest damage dice is 1d10 (katanas, halberds and two-handed swords), and the smallest dice is 1d2 (dart). The difference in expected damage is a mere 5.5-1.5=4. Considering magical weaponry, Flail of Ages +5 offers one of the highest expected weapon damages at 1d6+6+10 elemental=19.5. But we need to know that most weapons do not offer anywhere near this figure. Spectral Brand +5 is only 1d8+5+1d6 cold=13. Even Carsomyr +6 is only 1d12+6=12.5 (not counting special damage). Also, notice that the difference in weapon base damage is actually quite small among the top-level weapons (<=10).
On the other hand, Y can go up quite a bit higher. A character with 22 Str, grandmastery and gauntlets already has 10+5+2=17. You get more if your Str is higher, if you have some other damage bonus (kensai, offensive spin, rage), and these bonuses are not tied to the weapon.
Therefore, considering the above, we have a reasonably good case for the following pecking order (in descending order of importance) when it comes to increasing weapon damage output, assuming generally favorable circumstances:
1. APR 2. Damage bonuses 3. Weapon
Relating our analysis to the question @Elrandir posted, since base weapon weapon damage is the weakest contributor to damage output, and the differences in damage among the top-level weapons are slight, the proposition I make here is that the "best class of weapons" will be the one that offers the following instead of damage since a player can focus on APR and damage bonuses to increase damage:
1. Power - Are there any good specimens of this weapon? 2. Accessibility - Are good specimens of this weapon available easily? 3. Flexibility - Does this weapon class allow you to vary your combat strategy? 4. Special Effects - Are there any special effects, and are they game-changing?
Based on the above, we have some overall strong contenders like Axe and Two-Handed Sword, and some others are meh (Clubs and Daggers IMO, and bastard swords are terrible). But this is up to the individual player to decide. For me, I value special effects more than damage generally, so I am a fan of Ravager/Silver Sword/Axe of the Unyielding, Flail of Ages, Carsomyr/Staff of the Magi, Answerer, and so on.
@Aristillius I will totally second that, even knowing their shortcomings.
One of the favorite ideas for a warrior I had was a bastard sword and single weapon style character. I always imagine the added defensive and offensive bonuses to be derived from the character holding it with both hands, and the bastard sword is literally DESIGNED for that kind of one or two handed style of combat, so it's perfect.
Katana are good but the only worth having is celestial fury, and you can't get it right away, so you are crippled for a while with a +1 Katana assuming you don't want to spend 20k gold for dakkonzerthblade. On the other side longsword are probably the most prominent weapon in bg2.
Quaterstaff, no need to say it, you can get a +4 very early in the game. ninjato scimetar are good you can easily get a +2 for free in trademeet, and when you're good enough get a +4 usono blade again for free. That you will most likely keep until the end of the game.
Then you have so many good 2 handed swords. Even though I never use them.
long sword quaterstaff scimetar/ninjato/waki 2 handed sword
I think long sword and quaterstaff get the upper hand, lot of them, easy to get and plenty of free buff.
When I'm asked what weapon category is the best in my opinion, I use one particular criteria: If I had to hand over weapons from only one category, how many people in the party could I equip with one weapon type while being relatively satisfied with the outcome?
That speaks for the weapon count/quality ratio in the game. I am also a reasonable man so I assume that I can shape my party accordingly so I can bypass particular class/character requirements. Now, let's see:
Long Swords: Argunvadal, Answerer, Blackrazor, Daystar Two-Handed Swords: Carsomyr, Gram, Soul Reaver, Unholy Reaver, Psion's Blade, Silver Sword, Warblade (I know, generic, but it's still a +4 sword) Warhammers: Crom Faeyr, Runehammer. Possibly this category is slightly better in SoA only, but that's it. Battle Axes: Frostreaver, Stonefire, Axe of the Unyielding, K'logarath, Azuredge. Katanas: Celestial Fury and...yeah, that's about it. Hindo's if you REALLY have to. Short Swords: Cutthroat+4, Sword of Mask, Kundane* Scimitars/Wakizashi/Ninja-To: Spectral Brand, Usuno's Blade, Yamoto+4, Scarlet Ninja-To, Belm** Halberds: Ravager, Dragon's Breath, Wave Spears: Ixil's Spike, Impaler, Withering Slings: Sling of Arvoreen, Erinne, Everard, optionally Seeking for the Str bonus, but it's only +2... Quarterstaffs: Staff of Rynn, Staff of the Magi, Staff of the Ram (although why it's knockback effect is a positive is beyond me). Staff of the Woodlands and Staff of Power if you really have to stretch it. Crossbows: Firetooth? Bastard Swords: Foebane, Purifier Clubs: Ugh, really? Detonation maybe, but I don't like this category very much. Maces: Storm Star, Mace of Disrutption (very optional)
* (ugh...really don't like it, but people here seem to value this +1 attack much) ** (See above)
Someone can correct me if I didn't include some other awesome weapon, but from where I stand, the best categories are:
1. Two Handed Swords (can equip 7 people with relatively good stuff) 2. Battle Axes (5 people) 3. ex aequo Long Swords and, funny, Scimitars (4 people).
I don't consider Belm and Kundane as standalone good choices. Only as off-hand weapons.
@Demonoid_Limewire Um... I feel you might have misinterpreted the idea. Being very rare isn't exactly a good thing. You want to have a consistent supply of good ones, not just a few good ones. And +4, while it is good enough and an extra +2 on top of that isn't necessary, isn't exactly what I'd call good. But if you think they're the best, then go for it!
Please, man... Quality wins over quantity every time! Especially since everyone mostly wants to equip his/her main with the best thing affordable. What would be the purpose in having a consistent supply of good ones, since you are going to need one, or two at best?
Another katana advantage that also sets it above all other weapons, primarily in the EE, is that in the first game, it is not affected by the iron crisis; which means it simply cannot break! Even if it is the normal one without enchantment, it is ice cold. Killer stuff. Ninja item. Plus, it can backstab. And since it deals damage on par with a 2H sword, this means it is the meanest backstabber (from the 1H category).
I do not think anything, the katana thinks for me instead!
Honestly, this depends on play style, class, and character rp.
If you're going two handed, there are great options in every category. Spear is the most lack-luster, but isn't awful by any means... just super underused. Same for Halberds, except you can get decent ones pretty early on. Staffs are absolutely great with Magi and Power for epic magery, and all of the other great options... plus, the back-thwacking thief is a great build. For the classic two-hander, it's phenomenal choices throughout. They have one of the earliest +3 or betters (outside Staff of Rynn) in Lilicor for the awesome charm protections... and dialogue... plus excellent endgame choices and Carsomyr.
In two handers, most warriors lean 2HS, with mages and thiefs going staff. Halberds and Spears are underused, but make great backups for non-kiteing archers who occasionally melee, as you can melee over party members and not steal a prime weapon group.
Single weapon or weapon and shield have a lot of options, and are good for either single backstabbers or cleric types... anyone not going for max melee output. Good long swords are everywhere... so yay. Warhammers are ok, as the lag a bit in the early and mid-game but have two of the best endgame weapons. Battle axes have great single weapon viability throughout the game and provide a variety of ranged options as well. Scimitars, Short swords have decent options throughout, while Clubs, Maces, and Bastard swords have only one or two winners. Flails are also great with FoA. Katana work great, and if Celestial Fury had an upgrade to +4 I'd never use anything else as Hindo's Doom falls flat for me.
Your real hard hitters are dual wielders. If you aren't a fighter mage and you're dual wielding, then scimitar or short sword proficiency(at minimum) is a near must for +1 APR with Belm, Kudane, or Scarlt Ninja-To (for fighter thieves). Scimitars come with the hard hitting Usuno's Blade, but I prefer Spectral Brand for negative plane protection. Short Sword of the mask works well as a main with kudane, but entangle is lack luster on a short sword... then again, level drain is a +. For those dual wielding without the option of weapon mastery, the combo of axe-hammer was always fun. Unyielding + Crom Fayer is pretty mean. Last, flails used to be great, but are now just good. Combining FoA and DoE was super damagey and super tanky, but now FoA+5 prevents Improved Haste, so unless you use an override for that, the combo is less about damage (don't get me wrong, it's still alot) but it isn't as much as it could be. For rp sake, running Katana in main and wakisashi in off-hand is great, but I always make myself switch to Wakisashi main, Ninja-to (tanto) offhand when indoors in a non-cavernous area in hardcore rp runs.
For ranged, sling is decent with a "hits as +5" very early. Shortbow does well also with higher APR and Gesen for those immune to +3 and below enemies. Longbow falls sadly short, not due to variety of good bows, but due to a bad ammo shortfall. Crossbow has Firetooth which is pretty good overall with +7 to hit, but I think it only strikes as +2... if so, just don't use it for tough stuff.
My preference is dual wielding, but I grew up on 2nd ad&d and dwarven fighter priests of Clangeddin Silverbeard, moved on to juggling jesters, and pretty much never looked back. My 4e wizard wields a longsword and staff. It's what I do. Currently playing a fighter thief on scimitars. I think they're great. Loved my paladin on Carsomyr. Had great times with my dualing dwarf fighter, Hammerhelm. Reeeeeeely wish I could dual throwing knives or darts... there's a jaunty juggling Jester just jumping at the job of jabbing jovially at that jaded jerk Jon!
For my money, and this is coming from someone who hasn't done much in BG2, I would say long swords. Like in most RPGs, they are a common, iconic, symbolic weapon that most people would recognize. Almost every RPG has them well represented, and from what I've seen, Baldur's Gate is no different. But I don't hear much about them in the endgame of BG2, which is why I'm unsure. But I still believe they're the dominant weapon type of the game.
I basically agree with everything you've said here.
I wouldn't worry too much about the end-game of BG2 - it's just the final portion of an extensive 2-game series, and besides, you can import any of the numerous magical long swords available in SoA into ToB.
Long swords really come into their own in SoA, where they are the most numerous and readily available of all magical weapons - and ironically, there are very, very few NPCs that you will find who are proficient in them.
Personally, I always liked daggers. But they're a pretty useless category, aren't they? My poor daggers. Item Upgrade at least makes a nice thief one for you.
I'd probably vote for 'staff', in the end. Huge backstab with Staff of the Ram for thieves, and Staff of the Magi is great for your casters. And you can get decent staffs in BG1, as well. They're something of a plain choice, in a world of swords, but they make it work.
Comments
Neverheless the math at least teaches me new things
I believe we are merely describing the different sides of the same coin and I will briefly summarize and also to relate our computations to the opening thread
Quoting myself, let us look at the basic structure of damage computation:
(X+Y)(n)
X refers weapon damage
Y refers to damage bonuses
n refers to APR
n has a multiplier effect hence increasing APR is essential for maximizing damage.
Comparing X with Y, the nature of the AD&D game is such that X is often lower than Y. Considering normal weaponry, the largest damage dice is 1d10 (katanas, halberds and two-handed swords), and the smallest dice is 1d2 (dart). The difference in expected damage is a mere 5.5-1.5=4. Considering magical weaponry, Flail of Ages +5 offers one of the highest expected weapon damages at 1d6+6+10 elemental=19.5. But we need to know that most weapons do not offer anywhere near this figure. Spectral Brand +5 is only 1d8+5+1d6 cold=13. Even Carsomyr +6 is only 1d12+6=12.5 (not counting special damage). Also, notice that the difference in weapon base damage is actually quite small among the top-level weapons (<=10).
On the other hand, Y can go up quite a bit higher. A character with 22 Str, grandmastery and gauntlets already has 10+5+2=17. You get more if your Str is higher, if you have some other damage bonus (kensai, offensive spin, rage), and these bonuses are not tied to the weapon.
Therefore, considering the above, we have a reasonably good case for the following pecking order (in descending order of importance) when it comes to increasing weapon damage output, assuming generally favorable circumstances:
1. APR
2. Damage bonuses
3. Weapon
Relating our analysis to the question @Elrandir posted, since base weapon weapon damage is the weakest contributor to damage output, and the differences in damage among the top-level weapons are slight, the proposition I make here is that the "best class of weapons" will be the one that offers the following instead of damage since a player can focus on APR and damage bonuses to increase damage:
1. Power - Are there any good specimens of this weapon?
2. Accessibility - Are good specimens of this weapon available easily?
3. Flexibility - Does this weapon class allow you to vary your combat strategy?
4. Special Effects - Are there any special effects, and are they game-changing?
Based on the above, we have some overall strong contenders like Axe and Two-Handed Sword, and some others are meh (Clubs and Daggers IMO, and bastard swords are terrible). But this is up to the individual player to decide. For me, I value special effects more than damage generally, so I am a fan of Ravager/Silver Sword/Axe of the Unyielding, Flail of Ages, Carsomyr/Staff of the Magi, Answerer, and so on.
One of the favorite ideas for a warrior I had was a bastard sword and single weapon style character. I always imagine the added defensive and offensive bonuses to be derived from the character holding it with both hands, and the bastard sword is literally DESIGNED for that kind of one or two handed style of combat, so it's perfect.
Quaterstaff, no need to say it, you can get a +4 very early in the game. ninjato scimetar are good you can easily get a +2 for free in trademeet, and when you're good enough get a +4 usono blade again for free. That you will most likely keep until the end of the game.
Then you have so many good 2 handed swords. Even though I never use them.
long sword
quaterstaff
scimetar/ninjato/waki
2 handed sword
I think long sword and quaterstaff get the upper hand, lot of them, easy to get and plenty of free buff.
That speaks for the weapon count/quality ratio in the game. I am also a reasonable man so I assume that I can shape my party accordingly so I can bypass particular class/character requirements. Now, let's see:
Long Swords: Argunvadal, Answerer, Blackrazor, Daystar
Two-Handed Swords: Carsomyr, Gram, Soul Reaver, Unholy Reaver, Psion's Blade, Silver Sword, Warblade (I know, generic, but it's still a +4 sword)
Warhammers: Crom Faeyr, Runehammer. Possibly this category is slightly better in SoA only, but that's it.
Battle Axes: Frostreaver, Stonefire, Axe of the Unyielding, K'logarath, Azuredge.
Katanas: Celestial Fury and...yeah, that's about it. Hindo's if you REALLY have to.
Short Swords: Cutthroat+4, Sword of Mask, Kundane*
Scimitars/Wakizashi/Ninja-To: Spectral Brand, Usuno's Blade, Yamoto+4, Scarlet Ninja-To, Belm**
Halberds: Ravager, Dragon's Breath, Wave
Spears: Ixil's Spike, Impaler, Withering
Slings: Sling of Arvoreen, Erinne, Everard, optionally Seeking for the Str bonus, but it's only +2...
Quarterstaffs: Staff of Rynn, Staff of the Magi, Staff of the Ram (although why it's knockback effect is a positive is beyond me). Staff of the Woodlands and Staff of Power if you really have to stretch it.
Crossbows: Firetooth?
Bastard Swords: Foebane, Purifier
Clubs: Ugh, really? Detonation maybe, but I don't like this category very much.
Maces: Storm Star, Mace of Disrutption (very optional)
* (ugh...really don't like it, but people here seem to value this +1 attack much)
** (See above)
Someone can correct me if I didn't include some other awesome weapon, but from where I stand, the best categories are:
1. Two Handed Swords (can equip 7 people with relatively good stuff)
2. Battle Axes (5 people)
3. ex aequo Long Swords and, funny, Scimitars (4 people).
I don't consider Belm and Kundane as standalone good choices. Only as off-hand weapons.
You missed flails/morningstars
Another katana advantage that also sets it above all other weapons, primarily in the EE, is that in the first game, it is not affected by the iron crisis; which means it simply cannot break! Even if it is the normal one without enchantment, it is ice cold. Killer stuff. Ninja item. Plus, it can backstab. And since it deals damage on par with a 2H sword, this means it is the meanest backstabber (from the 1H category).
I do not think anything, the katana thinks for me instead!
If you're going two handed, there are great options in every category. Spear is the most lack-luster, but isn't awful by any means... just super underused. Same for Halberds, except you can get decent ones pretty early on. Staffs are absolutely great with Magi and Power for epic magery, and all of the other great options... plus, the back-thwacking thief is a great build. For the classic two-hander, it's phenomenal choices throughout. They have one of the earliest +3 or betters (outside Staff of Rynn) in Lilicor for the awesome charm protections... and dialogue... plus excellent endgame choices and Carsomyr.
In two handers, most warriors lean 2HS, with mages and thiefs going staff. Halberds and Spears are underused, but make great backups for non-kiteing archers who occasionally melee, as you can melee over party members and not steal a prime weapon group.
Single weapon or weapon and shield have a lot of options, and are good for either single backstabbers or cleric types... anyone not going for max melee output. Good long swords are everywhere... so yay. Warhammers are ok, as the lag a bit in the early and mid-game but have two of the best endgame weapons. Battle axes have great single weapon viability throughout the game and provide a variety of ranged options as well. Scimitars, Short swords have decent options throughout, while Clubs, Maces, and Bastard swords have only one or two winners. Flails are also great with FoA. Katana work great, and if Celestial Fury had an upgrade to +4 I'd never use anything else as Hindo's Doom falls flat for me.
Your real hard hitters are dual wielders. If you aren't a fighter mage and you're dual wielding, then scimitar or short sword proficiency(at minimum) is a near must for +1 APR with Belm, Kudane, or Scarlt Ninja-To (for fighter thieves). Scimitars come with the hard hitting Usuno's Blade, but I prefer Spectral Brand for negative plane protection. Short Sword of the mask works well as a main with kudane, but entangle is lack luster on a short sword... then again, level drain is a +. For those dual wielding without the option of weapon mastery, the combo of axe-hammer was always fun. Unyielding + Crom Fayer is pretty mean. Last, flails used to be great, but are now just good. Combining FoA and DoE was super damagey and super tanky, but now FoA+5 prevents Improved Haste, so unless you use an override for that, the combo is less about damage (don't get me wrong, it's still alot) but it isn't as much as it could be. For rp sake, running Katana in main and wakisashi in off-hand is great, but I always make myself switch to Wakisashi main, Ninja-to (tanto) offhand when indoors in a non-cavernous area in hardcore rp runs.
For ranged, sling is decent with a "hits as +5" very early. Shortbow does well also with higher APR and Gesen for those immune to +3 and below enemies. Longbow falls sadly short, not due to variety of good bows, but due to a bad ammo shortfall. Crossbow has Firetooth which is pretty good overall with +7 to hit, but I think it only strikes as +2... if so, just don't use it for tough stuff.
My preference is dual wielding, but I grew up on 2nd ad&d and dwarven fighter priests of Clangeddin Silverbeard, moved on to juggling jesters, and pretty much never looked back. My 4e wizard wields a longsword and staff. It's what I do. Currently playing a fighter thief on scimitars. I think they're great. Loved my paladin on Carsomyr. Had great times with my dualing dwarf fighter, Hammerhelm. Reeeeeeely wish I could dual throwing knives or darts... there's a jaunty juggling Jester just jumping at the job of jabbing jovially at that jaded jerk Jon!
I wouldn't worry too much about the end-game of BG2 - it's just the final portion of an extensive 2-game series, and besides, you can import any of the numerous magical long swords available in SoA into ToB.
Long swords really come into their own in SoA, where they are the most numerous and readily available of all magical weapons - and ironically, there are very, very few NPCs that you will find who are proficient in them.
I'd probably vote for 'staff', in the end. Huge backstab with Staff of the Ram for thieves, and Staff of the Magi is great for your casters. And you can get decent staffs in BG1, as well. They're something of a plain choice, in a world of swords, but they make it work.
http://www.miramax.com/watch?v=J0djduYToldZvuPIHlERThHMsHZ92kBa