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The Best Class Of Weapons

ElrandirElrandir Member Posts: 1,664
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
What would you say is the best class of weapons? I don't mean, "FoA is the best weapon ever!" "Nuh-uh! The Ravager is!" ect. ect. What I'm asking, is what CLASS of weapons is the absolute strongest? While some classes have absolutely devastating tools of destruction, they are, for the most part, relatively meh. (Lookin' at you, flails) Assume you can get grandmastery in one weapon type and one only. Which one do you choose? For my money, and this is coming from someone who hasn't done much in BG2, I would say long swords. Like in most RPGs, they are a common, iconic, symbolic weapon that most people would recognize. Almost every RPG has them well represented, and from what I've seen, Baldur's Gate is no different. But I don't hear much about them in the endgame of BG2, which is why I'm unsure. But I still believe they're the dominant weapon type of the game. That said, even if most people agree with me, I'm sure there will be dissension and differing thoughts. So go. Tell me what is the best weapon type and why.
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Comments

  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    Shortbows, until ToB.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    Probably Maces for BG:EE as you can get the Stupifier+1 and then for BG2:EE, I think that it would be Quartstaff.
  • ElrandirElrandir Member Posts: 1,664
    Quarterstaff? Really? I know you can get a +3 in BG1, but are they really so good in BG2?
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    edited April 2014
    @Elrandir the Staff of the Magi and the Staff of the Ram.
    SotM gives invisibility when equipped, it hits as +5 and Dispels Effects on hit.
    SotR deals 1d6+12 when it is an upgraded +6 weapon, and has 15% chance of sending an enemy away.

    The person I ninja'd has a better argument about Staves than I.
    Tresset said:

    Quarterstaves are also really good in general. BG1 has plenty of good ones to choose from, such as the Quarterstaff +3, the Staff Spear +2, The Staff Mace +2, and the mighty Staff of Striking. In BG2 you get the Staff of Rynn +4, the Staff of Command (only +2 but there is no save vs. its domination effect), another Staff of Striking, and the Staff of the Ram. If you are a mage you have the Staff of the Magi and the Staff of Power. If you are a druid the Staff of the Woodlands is a great one. Lots to choose from.

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    edited April 2014
    Hmm, daggers are actually a pretty good weapon class. In both games there are many choices of pretty sweet daggers. In BG1 we have the Dagger of Venom, Longtooth, and a couple of daggers +2. All of these are perfectly serviceable daggers for BG1. In BG2 they get even better with the Boomerang Dagger, Firetooth, and Dagger of the Star. The Boneblade +4 and Pixie Prick +3 aren't bad either and there is still the Dagger of Venom again.

    Quarterstaves are also really good in general. BG1 has plenty of good ones to choose from, such as the Quarterstaff +3, the Staff Spear +2, The Staff Mace +2, and the mighty Staff of Striking. In BG2 you get the Staff of Rynn +4, the Staff of Command (only +2 but there is no save vs. its domination effect), another Staff of Striking, and the Staff of the Ram. If you are a mage you have the Staff of the Magi and the Staff of Power. If you are a druid the Staff of the Woodlands is a great one. Lots to choose from.

    Apparently my slow typing caused 6 ninjas...
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    It's difficult to give a best weapon type because none of them are the clear best choice at any moment in the trilogy. For example longswords are good for bg1 and early BG2 but not so much after that.

    IMO the most consistant weapon types over the trilogy are :
    - flails: decent choice in BG1 (1 +2, several +1), great from the start of SOA (DoE, FoA) to the end of the trilogy (improved FOA)
    - 2H swords : 1 very goog one in BG1 (spider's bane), good from the start of SOA (lilarcor) until the end of TOB (carsomyr, silver sword). However, 2H weapons are mechanically inferiors to 1H ones


    If we have a look by episodes :

    - For BG1 the best weapon type is longbow, thanks to special arrows and THACO on steroids.

    - For early SOA, there is a lot of competition (axes, longswords, scimitars, flails, katana).
    My choice would go to axes or scimitars.

    Axes have 2 + 3 axes with added elemental damage and 1 throwing axe to slaughter against undead. All of them are available from the start with no effort

    Scimitars have belm and usuno's blade for maximum damage output.

    - for end of SOA, 2H swords with carsomyr and the silver sword are difficult to beat, even if they are 2 handed.

    - for TOB, there is too many good choices. Warhammers with both runehammer and crom fayer are especially powerful.
  • WolkWolk Member Posts: 279
    Considering pure weapon (non enchanted, or only an echantment bonus (+1, +2, +3)).
    Katana is undoubtly the best melee. 1-10 damage, can backstab, ok speed factor, 1 handed, so shield or offhand. What do you want more?
    Then it would be (Composite) long bow as best ranged. Two APR base, bonus to hit and damage. Almost better than a Katana (this matter is debatable).

    Concerning the weapons we get in BG. Katana only has one or two good representative. Longbows are sadly awfull.
    Two handed swords has really good choices in both games, even for non palladin. It is one of the best choices avaible.
    Longswords has a lot of interesting choices, you will always have a good pick of weapon if you take GM in longsword, maybe not the best one, but always a good pick.
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    Clubs are the best weapons, period! :<
  • Demonoid_LimewireDemonoid_Limewire Member Posts: 424
    Katana! Katana! And, katana! You know why? Because is one handed, deals damage as if it had been a two handed sword (in numbers), is faster than a two handed sword, and its final, endgame representative (hindo's doom) is only +4 (which means it is so strong, it would be pointless to go over +4 anyway, plus it has a restoration daily charge...)! Also, the special vendor in 2 sells one that gives you extra spell slots! And finally, magical weapons of this class, are VERY rare, as the description itself claims. THIS, is what MUST be, the best class of all, BG weapons... Count the facts, and there you go!
  • ElrandirElrandir Member Posts: 1,664
    Alrighty then. From what I've seen/read the top three tools of destruction across the board (though not necessarily the best choice at all times) are (ranked by importance):

    1. Axes

    2. War hammers

    3: Long swords

    I find it amusing that the top three are all weapons with a different style of combat. You have the chopping weapon, the bludgeoning weapon, and the slashing/stabbing weapon. Anyway, keep on posting guys! I'm loving this extra knowledge!
  • ElrandirElrandir Member Posts: 1,664
    @Demonoid_Limewire‌ Um... I feel you might have misinterpreted the idea. Being very rare isn't exactly a good thing. You want to have a consistent supply of good ones, not just a few good ones. And +4, while it is good enough and an extra +2 on top of that isn't necessary, isn't exactly what I'd call good. But if you think they're the best, then go for it!
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    Daggers. Or longswords. A lot of people are saying katana, but the katana is quite rare and expensive, while longswords and daggers are very common and come with lots of interesting enchantments. Also, 1d10 is not that big of a deal, it's the same as a two-handed sword, but it isn't that much more than 1d8, is it? Katanas are nice, but longswords are more common. And daggers. I always but my Mage prof. In dagger because it gives a ranged and Melee options, and the dagger of venom is one of the most powerful weapons in bg1. And There are to many good daggers in bg2, and returning throwing daggers, to pass up.
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    Longswords. Nowadays I only play solo no reload games. Longswords are the most dependable with various status effect immunities. It's true that ToB longswords fall off hard comparing with other type of weapons at the end, but they help survive most encounters with minimal risks.
  • FrostyFrosty Member Posts: 190
    going on the base stats no magic taking in to account. the heavy crossbow wins with a average damage of 6.5
    Katanas with a avage damage of 6 come in 2nd but have the ablity to back stab and use a shield but lose ranged. so for some characters the Katana may be better then the heavy cross bow.
    with composite long bows average of 5.5 coming in 3rd
    2handed swords and do 6 damage but lack the ability to backstab use a shield, or attack at range so they come in 4th

    Mace, long sword, axe, flail, and morning star all have a average damage of 5. and can use a shield so they come in at 5th.


    special note throwing axes with a high STR character, can out damage heavy cross bows and use shelds and range but are very heavy and prone to ammunition shortages until you get a returning axe.

    slings also benefit from high STR, and can use a shield but don't have the weight and there top damage is lower then the axes.

    Darts have low damage but twice has many APR so charter with low str but high skills. can be very good with darts ammunition supply's can be a problem but there not very heavy.
  • AonghasDubhAonghasDubh Member Posts: 20
    edited April 2014
    Average Damage Stats:

    MELEE

    Dagger 1D4 2.5

    Warhammer 1D4+1 3.5
    Staff, Spear, Short Sword, Club 1D6 3.5

    Mace, Flail 1D6+1 4.5
    Long Sword, Scimitar, Ninja-To, Wakisashi 1D8 4.5

    Morning Star, Bastard Sword 2D4 5.0

    Katana, Claymore, Halberd 1D10 5.5


    RANGED

    Dart 1D3 2.0

    Throwing Dagger 1D4 2.5

    Sling 1D4+1 3.5
    Short Bow 1D6 3.5

    Long Bow, Composite Bow, Throwing Axe 1D6+1 4.5
    Light Crossbow 1D8 4.5

    Heavy Crossbow 1D8+2 6.5

  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited April 2014
    AonghasDubh said:

    Average Damage Stats:

    MELEE

    Dagger 1D4 2.5

    Warhammer 1D4+1 3.5
    Staff, Spear, Short Sword, Club 1D6 3.5

    Mace, Flail 1D6+1 4.5
    Long Sword, Scimitar, Ninja-To, Wakisashi 1D8 4.5

    Morning Star, Bastard Sword 2D4 5.0

    Katana, Claymore, Halberd 1D10 5.5


    RANGED

    Dart 1D3 2.0

    Throwing Dagger 1D4 2.5

    Sling 1D4+1 3.5
    Short Bow 1D6 3.5

    Long Bow, Composite Bow, Throwing Axe 1D6+1 4.5
    Light Crossbow 1D8 4.5

    Heavy Crossbow 1D8+2 6.5

    I've got a question, probably I'm missing something very obvious here, but why is average dmg not simply half the max dmg, but half the max dmg plus 0.5?

    Also, this is without taking APR into account isn't it? A heavy crossbow gives only 1 APR, whereas bows give 2. So in one round a short bow would deal on average 7 dmg according to your calculations, which is better than heavy crossbows (supposing identical Thac0s for both weapons).
  • AonghasDubhAonghasDubh Member Posts: 20
    @Blackraven‌ Yeah I completely ignored APR because it gets complicated especially with the ranged weapons when they are used by a warrior class.

    The short answer is pick the lowest possible damage result and the highest possible and take the average of them.

    Doing that gives the same answer as listing all of the possible damage results and finding the average, this is because the damage probability curve is symmetrical.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Yea with ranged weapons average damage is a bit more tricky as well because some (slings, daggers, axes, and warhammers) get a strength bonus while others don't. They also have different apr.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    AonghasDubh said:


    The short answer is pick the lowest possible damage result and the highest possible and take the average of them.

    Ah of course that makes complete sense.

  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    edited April 2014
    @Blackraven: It's not half of max damage because the weapon has a nonzero min damage.

    It's true that shortbows and longbows get 1 extra APR. At low levels, they surpass crossbow in dealing damage. As the fighter levels up and get extra attack from pip, the extra damage from heavy crossbow WILL surpass the extra APR from longbow. In math terms:

    -Longbow expected damage per turn: 4.5*(x+1)
    -Heavy Crossbow expected damage per turn: 6.5*x
    -X is APR

    Equating the two and solve for x and x is 2.25. A grandmaster level 7 fighter has 5/2 attacks per round. The Heavy Crossbow should deal more damage than the Longbow.

    Edit: Actually I'm wrong. I forgot to factor in the extra damage from Grandmastery. The 5 extra damages will favor Longbow.
    Post edited by bbear on
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    edited April 2014
    I think there are 2 cases to consider (for longbow and heavy crossbow):

    1) A fighter who can grandmaster
    2) Ranger/Paladin and multiclass Fighter who can specialize

    Grandmastery: +1 atk, +5 dmg
    Specialized: +1/2 atk, +2 dmg

    Case 1: Grandmastery
    -Longbow expected damage per turn: (4.5+y)*(x+1)
    -Heavy Crossbow expected damage per turn: (6.5+y)*x
    -X is APR
    -Y is 5
    Solve for X and X is 4.25.

    Case 2: Specialized
    -Longbow expected damage per turn: (4.5+y)*(x+1)
    -Heavy Crossbow expected damage per turn: (6.5+y)*x
    -X is APR
    -Y is 2
    Solve for X and X is 3.25.

    Base attack is 1 APR, Specialization grants +1/2 APR, Grandmastery grants +1 APR and Level 7 and Level 13 each add +1/2 APR. Without other equipments and considering only NORMAL weapons, the Longbow is always ahead.

    -Haste adds +1 APR and Improved Haste doubles APR. In general, greater X favors Heavy Crossbow and greater Y favors Longbow.
  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    Statistics like this are nice beginning points for a more complex algorithm. Claiming one as the best weapon-class must include whether for full-party play, Solo runs, etc. One might also consider the chance of melee damage received for each weapon [something that Longswords always risk in Early-Mid Game BG1].

    Another important feature besides Damage, particularly when Soloing [no Dart-throwing sidekick] is Disruption. Ashideena's low Speed Factor is a big plus IMHO and generic Warhammer does well against Tarnesh. But that leaves Party Cleric without best weapon in BG vanilla, something Stupefier definitely rebalanced in BGEE.
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    edited April 2014
    Since both Slings and Throwing Axes has the same APR, the above analysis between Longbow and Throwing Axe would imply that you need even greater strength for Sling expected damage to exceed Longbow expected damage.

    Comparison between Longbows and Throwing Daggers:
    -Longbow expected damage: (4.5+y)*(x+1)
    -Throwing Dagger expected damage: (2.5+y+z)*(x+1)
    -X is APR, Y is extra damage from weapon specialization and Z is strength bonus.

    As you can see, always pick Throwing Dagger if z is greater than 2. This means any warrior with greater than 18 strength should pick Throwing Dagger (normal weapons). Thief should get normal Throwing Dagger over normal Shortbow if strength is 16 or greater. However, the downside of Throwing Dagger is that there are VERY FEW magical Throwing Daggers in the game.
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    edited April 2014
    @bbear‌

    Very nice numerical analysis. I offer my own take on this too. For simplicity, I will usually consider a general formula for comparison of maximum weapon damages:

    (X+Y)(n)

    X is the base damage of the weapon (include elemental, launcher, ammunition bonuses)
    Y is the total of situational damage modifiers (specialization, strength, class bonuses, equips, etc.)
    n is the APR.

    If necessary, I insert a 0.95 multiplier because an attack roll of 1 is always a miss. Hence, the expected maximum damage that a weapon can offer is actually capped at 0.95. Maximum damage will start to drop if the value of (character THAC0 - monster AC) is greater than 2.

    If the object of analysis is on how Str bonus impacts the calculation, I will modify the formula as:

    (P+Q)(n)

    P is the total expected damage per hit, less Str bonus
    Q is the Str bonus
    n is the APR

    Comparing an arrow fired from a longbow and a throwing axe, solve for

    (Parrow)(n+1) = (Paxe+Q)(n)

    Since we know (or can find out) the values of Parrow, Paxe and n, solving for Q will give the Str bonus required for one option to be superior to the other. I prefer this formula because it takes into consideration other factors that influence damage per hit and I only need to modify the formula based on the target of analysis.
  • ElrandirElrandir Member Posts: 1,664
    NEEEEEEERRRRRRDDDDDDSSSSSS. Sorry, I just have the urge to yell that when people start talking numbers. Anyway, I'll stick to my simple definitions based on the magical options available. But the number stuff is interesting! (albeit perhaps not to me...)
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    @Elrandir‌

    I suffered three years of this in the university... I am a broken man now :'(
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