"He has shown me how to make it vulnerable" - Who?
MaciejS
Member Posts: 28
As the title suggests, this is something which has bugged me for quite some time. In the dream sequence within Spellhold, we meet Imoen (or her soul), who instructs us that a certain "he" has shown her how to battle the essence of Bhaal.
Who, in the name of Ao, is this "he"? I've seen a rather lengthy discussion about that somewhere in the older topics, but the lad who created it was rather rude and banned - although his arguments were sourced and very well formed.
Here are a few points of who definitely falls OUT of the equation:
1. Irenicus - he has absolutely no reason to help battle the essence of Bhaal - quite the opposite, in fact
2. Bhaal - obviously
3. Imoen's soul - since the soul is represented as the person itself (the example being Imoen in the sequence itself, or CHARNAME), it would be a "she"
4. Bhaal's essence - obviously
In the discussion already mentioned the most interesting theory seemed to me that "he" is Cyric- if anyone could find this topic and post the link, I'd be grateful - right now I can't find it.
UPDATE: The aforementioned discussion has, unfortunately, been deleted.
Who, in the name of Ao, is this "he"? I've seen a rather lengthy discussion about that somewhere in the older topics, but the lad who created it was rather rude and banned - although his arguments were sourced and very well formed.
Here are a few points of who definitely falls OUT of the equation:
1. Irenicus - he has absolutely no reason to help battle the essence of Bhaal - quite the opposite, in fact
2. Bhaal - obviously
3. Imoen's soul - since the soul is represented as the person itself (the example being Imoen in the sequence itself, or CHARNAME), it would be a "she"
4. Bhaal's essence - obviously
In the discussion already mentioned the most interesting theory seemed to me that "he" is Cyric- if anyone could find this topic and post the link, I'd be grateful - right now I can't find it.
UPDATE: The aforementioned discussion has, unfortunately, been deleted.
2
Comments
As for the "Cyric theory": the main arguments I can remember are:
1. It has to be a "he" - check.
2. "He" has to be powerful enough to invade dreams - check.
3. "He" has to be actively interested in the Bhaalspawn, not just CHARNAME - check.
4. "He" has to have good reasons to oppose the return of Bhaal - check.
5. "He" has to have at least once, on a different occasion, helped the Bhaalspawn - check.
6. "He" has to keep his identity secret - check (Ao's orders).
Furthermore, when talking with The Essence of Bhaal he speaks of the soul as a different entity.
Still, an interesting question…
And Sarevok would know how to do it, he's probably the one guy (other than Melissan) that knows the most about Bhaal.
I'm not saying it's him, but it kind of makes sense in a twisted sort of way in my brain.
[Edited] : And if he did mention this when you meet him in the pocket plane, you'll probably wonder why a person like Sarevok did help you, and then ponder his motives for it. Let's not forget that our dear brother is intelligent.
Remember, it is Imoen who is "telling" this, not Irenicus. I don't think that Irenicus intentionally showed Imoen how to do this, it was an unexpected result of the experiments that resulted in this. I personally do not think that Irenicus is aware of this.
Imoen is telling Charname about this, to help him in his struggle.
So this boils down to, it might be you all along who knew how to do it, you just needed to unlock this knowledge in your subconscious, which happened in the dream. Your mind was showing you knowledge that you already knew but couldn't grasp or understand before that dream.
[Edited] :
So in true Planescape Torment style...
"He" might actually be...
*Drum rolls*
You!
I don't think that Imoen is really (meaning that she is real, in the dream) in it - she is just represented, a figure of Charname's imagination (as are all of the figures, really).
Foreword: this is a bit of a tangent, but somewhat required in order to give context. To try and understand who 'he' is, one needs to understand what the dreams are in general. Plucking one line out of a single scene and trying to dissect and guess who 'he' is would probably be impossible.
So, we start off with the adventure, the player has dreams with a recurring theme and three main characters: Candlekeep, your former home and safe-zone, the player character, Imoen, and Irenicus. None of it is real. What follows is my own interpretation.
To start off: Candlekeep. This was your home for over twenty years, it is a place of safety and a strong memory. It is also a place of learning, knowledge, and understanding. A symbol to both your past and of knowledge. An apt place for your subconscious to piece together the events unfolding around you.
Irenicus and Imoen are two sides of a coin; good and evil, so to speak, if a bit clichéd, with 'Bhaal' being the manifestation of the essence in the forced dream.
Imoen is the 'good'; the 'natural instinct' and the 'innocence' combined within the consciousness while Irenicus is the 'evil'; the 'temptation' and the 'corruption.' The two are vying for some measure of control — there is a reply to Jaheira along the lines of 'there is a lot pulling me in one direction or another.' The two are your soul, the two sides of it.
It can be seen in just about dream where 'Irenicus' tortures 'Imoen' for CHARNAME's indecision or acceptance of the evil within, and where 'Imoen' states that she "can't remember any of them" in reference to "the guidance" (Gorion, Elminster, etc.). This could be the weakening of the innocence, trying to force acceptance, and the empowering of the instinct combine with the corruption of the essence.
The sentence, "you will arrive too late," could also be in reference to not making a decision in time rather than actually arriving at a location. In this case, it makes sense since the choice is no longer yours and the 'gift' is essentially forced upon the player in the same scene where 'she' reiterates, "didn't I say you would come too late?"
As to who has shown whom how to make whatever else vulnerable, it's really anyone's guess. One thing to note, however, is the lack of an element that recurs in most of the other dreams: Irenicus. In the forced dream, Irenicus is oddly absent, leaving just the player character, 'Imoen', and 'Bhaal'. The good and innocence of the soul are at stake, so it's a last ditch effort to fight back—like a cornered animal.
Personally, I'm in the boat of it being Irenicus during the 'torture.' A side effect of the torture, a natural instinct to repel attack, a natural defence. Your own consciousness finding a weakness. A real life example of this is going to bed while thinking of a puzzle at work; in my case I have often woken up in the middle of the night thinking "that's it, I know how to do X! Why didn't I think of that before!" followed by quickly scribbling it down on a piece of paper. The brain is a tricky thing to understand at the best of times, and the conscious and unconscious mind are likewise tricky.
If you look at the 'here and now' in that scene, there is only one logical 'he' who could show you. The person who is ripping your soul from your being. In the process, there is no reason to think that one side (the aforementioned good and evil) wouldn't be able to see a weakness in the other. Irenicus also states that he doesn't know what you saw while mired within the spell/dream.
After this forced dream, the innocence of the soul is gone (or faded) and the essence is the only thing left. Note that 'Irenicus' is replaced by 'Imoen' in future dreams, with 'Imoen' taking an opposite role to what 'she' had before and 'Irenicus' no longer having a major role. Dreams that follow after that include 'killing' Sarevok, Bodhi, and Irenicus. This could be thought of as revenge. Revenge is a strong motivator for some people, if not for yourself then for Imoen, and is a point to make about how easy things would become if you just accepted your gift. Accepting the gift in order to get revenge is the 'evil' thing to do.
You meet Cyric and Sarevok later, and neither offer any hint of helping you fight your Bhaal essence during that scene. So if Cyric is keeping it a secret, then Sarevok could also keep it a secret; thus, you will never know if it was either of those because neither actually state it.
'He' might even be a metaphor for a person who taught the player back at Candlekeep, and the knowledge (memory) has resurfaced. Tethoril, perhaps. A good deed not forgotten, Firebead, perhaps? It gives you the pick of just about anyone at any given time in the character's history.
"not now, not when i'm so close to unlocking your power"
And would people please stop saying "It's xxxx" because there is no way to be sure of this. All we have are opinions and speculations, which is what makes this so interesting to start with.
On the other hand, it isn't Imoen's dream and technically the character you speak to isn't even Imoen, as after the dream Imoen confesses no recollection of the events of it. So in a terribly post-modern interpretation, she didn't and doesn't need to have made any logical sense at all.
It is a projection of your own soul (it is quite clear from the discussion you have with her and irenicus in the asylum right after that dream).
Therefore, nobody has told imoen anything : a part of your soul is actually telling another part of your soul.