[SPOILERS] Anyone else have severe story issues with the arrival at Spellhold?

Ploughed_Jester

Let's say your character is a take no prisoners Assassin who's just gone into Spellhold. You've had no qualms about killing in your time on Toril and you know that a powerful mage is responsible... a powerful, mouthy mage. He's tortured you, all the while flapping his soulless ex-elven gums... so much so that you hear him in your sleep... also, you're a god-child with vision dreams.

Let's say you walk through the door and you're greeted by a robed (probably magically disguised) Spellhold-mage-shrink-guy... no problem... but he sounds EXACTLY LIKE THE GUY YOU'RE HERE TO EVISCERATE. He leads you round the corner, you hide with non-detection. Ambush time. You land some good ones, especially after your no casting time mage friend pops some debuffing action.

I'm not saying that Irenicus should be killed in 3 seconds because I'm ruthless... he's super powerful... it's cool. But why then, does the quest break???

Irenicus disappears... Imoen's a drooling mess... I can't take her with and good ole Jon never shows again... "Well, he saw through my disguise, guess I'll just give up on that God-soul thing..." No. Wouldn't happen... let me try to leave with Imoen and get re-ambushed by him... Or let him pop up behind me while talking to imoen... Have Saemon or Yoshimo (if still with you) "poison" your drinks while on the ship, incapacitating you. Something!!!

Why isn't that OBVIOUS course of player action an accounted for option?... Heck, I feel that way if I'm almost EVERY class with the wisdom to notice except maybe a paladin, since he could be tricking me into falling... so I better wait.

Grr... no, instead, my options are be a complete idiot and follow behind my obvious foe like a school child on a field trip to my doom, or let myself get bundled and shipped in like a lunatic... Some master assassin... Some powerful wizard... Some sneak thief... Some strong, noble warrior... Some high cleric of whomever... Some godchild. Bogus.

p.s. not an EE specific issue, just something that's bugged me since my childhood.
/rant

Ploughed_Jester

And having had to play through the field trip, I remember it's even worse... The little insane mageling muppet talks about him having a new face today... Yoshimo's constant 2 cents rats him out hard, but the worst part is when Jon goes for the big reveal, the only two options are Cowled Wizard oriented.

Why couldn't it wait an in game hour, then have me fall asleep with Yoshimo just saying sorry... or why couldn't they just have disguised his voice? Have him switch over at the reveal. grump

SionIV

I don't think CHARNAME hears Irenicus voice, it's only there for us players to notice that it's him.

A powerful mage like Irenicus would have an easy time to change his voice.

Ploughed_Jester

Then change it for the player too. It absolutely kills suspension of disbelief.

SionIV

Ploughed_Jester said:

Then change it for the player too. It absolutely kills suspension of disbelief.

So they should get another voice actor to do him?

And there are several parts of the Baldur's Gate series that are like this. What you're talking about here is exactly the same with Koveras in BG1.

Ploughed_Jester

Good point... except he's a fighter and the voice actor seems to be at least trying to disguise his voice. He's bad at it. Regardless, you get the choice not to trust him, you just don't know all the elements in play. With Jon, if I choose not to trust him, the quest breaks. Big difference from BG1 when you are framed. Yes, obvious frame is obvious, but the choice is still there. If I choose to stab disguised Irenicus, he ports out and the entire game dead ends. Huge difference, no?

SionIV

Ploughed_Jester said:

Good point... except he's a fighter and the voice actor seems to be at least trying to disguise his voice. He's bad at it. Regardless, you get the choice not to trust him, you just don't know all the elements in play. With Jon, if I choose not to trust him, the quest breaks. Big difference from BG1 when you are framed. Yes, obvious frame is obvious, but the choice is still there. If I choose to stab disguised Irenicus, he ports out and the entire game dead ends. Huge difference, no?

Your character have seen him in armor and heard his voice before (Koveras). You should be able to notice the exact same voice and Sarevok is HUGE so he would stick out like a sore thumb.

So no i really don't see any difference. I would say it would be easier to recognize Sarevok because you actually see him in person and he's like 2M/6'5 feet tall while Irenicus is in a robe that fully covers him.

I understand where you're going with this, and it does give it away a bit. But i really think they put his voice there so that people could figure out that it was him, i really don't think CHARNAME will hear his voice.

Ploughed_Jester

Giving the player free knowledge that the character doesn't have is begging for metagaming, which I'm sure the devs weren't after. I just don't want the quest to break. That being said, in BG1, you heard his voice once, in the woods, he was pretty big, but you have no indicator of race or class similarities, the voice is slightly off in Candlekeep, and most important, the quest... doesn't... break...

That's the key. I can accept Koveras's ring or advice, I can accept, neither, and I can accept both. I can try to attack. None cause the game to dead end or derail, etc. Meanwhile, one obvious choice dead ends the game hard at Spellhold.

If his voice is disguised, it should be disguised. If it isn't then be prepared for him to get backstabbed, and have an in game course of action. This isn't an off the wall thing to expect from the game, especially when it is the most obvious path for any thief, barbarian, or other short fused pc. Also, why wouldn't a mage, cleric, inquisitor, etc attempt to detect illusions somehow.

Again, I don't think I'm making a large leap. I just think the game shouldn't stop dead...

WebShaman

I agree with the OP here - there are a few areas in BGII where the railroading is nauseating. It is just too obvious for characters with such high int and wis scores to fall for, etc.

The added bonus of breaking the game is just icing on the cake!

The fact that one has to go to spellhold to advance the game sticks in my craw anyway. Why go? Let Imoen rot and Jon die, withering away from the curse, with Charname laughing his behind off, all the while.

Even if you literally wait YEARS (game time), JON DOES NOT DIE!!!! I know, I tried it.

And I love how some try to "excuse" this poor design. Because that is what it is - poor design, probably due to time constraints (re: zots). Why excuse it, or try to justify the obvious poor quality of the design? Just point it out, admit it, and hold up the other parts that are real jewels of design instead.

Mathsorcerer

I am more concerned with the fact that you cannot take that ship moored in the south end of the Docks to Brynnlaw. There are only *two* ways to get to that island? Really? You cannot charm person or dominate the captain and take his ship, you cannot bribe him with 10,000 gold (a king's ransom yet only half the going rate to get there), and you cannot use a spell of flight or summon a water elemental to carry you or any other method of going there.

Yes, I know--the game cannot be completely open-ended but surely there has to be--should be--a third way to get there that doesn't make you choose "evil" or "evil light".

If the Bhaalspawn is a mage, why can't the protagonist go crazy casting spells in the city and get carted away to Spellhold as a deviant? This would force the protagonist to go alone but it would get you there and it is free.

Can't some other group hire a ship? Surely no one would turn down one of the main temples wanting to commission a short voyage, especially the church of Talos the Stormlord. Would anyone realistically refuse the Order of the Radiant Heart from commissioning a ship?

Ploughed_Jester

It is tough to account for all of the creativity that d&d allows, but when playing zealous good guys, I've always just gone thieves, then wrecked their shop after the "Rival guild" was done for and I'd returned from the underdark.

I really like the expidited "I'm a deviant too!!! Look at me!" approach. That's really quite awesome, especially for a solo run. It would explain why you're alone too!

Having a "religious" option for chartering the boat would also be cool, even if they had you take on the vampires and thieves. That'd be great too.

Flying and swimming are notoriously left out of this (and almost every other) game, so I'm not too surprised there. I think it'd be neat to join the Cowled and get a reassignment to Spellhold.

Twani

@Mathsorcerer That's why I use the Alternatives mod on Gibberlings3... which sadly isn't available for BG2EE yet, though you can probably force the installation. It allows you to side with the forces of good (the paladins, IIRC), or to say 'screw you all, I'm not interested in Imoen or Irenicus'. In the latter route you get betrayed obviously, and end up at the Spellhold anyway, but at least it's an option to, you know, not care.

Nothing can be done about the Irenicus/coordinator, though. Which is somewhat of a shame.

Ploughed_Jester

It seems like a simple fix... after you talk to Imoen, with coordinator not around, have him port back in, initiate the last line or two of dialogue about poison and sleep and whatnot, bob's your uncle, I'm captured.

jackjack

Mathsorcerer said:

If the Bhaalspawn is a mage, why can't the protagonist go crazy casting spells in the city and get carted away to Spellhold as a deviant?

This has always bothered me!

Mathsorcerer

Twani said:

@Mathsorcerer That's why I use the Alternatives mod on Gibberlings3... which sadly isn't available for BG2EE yet, though you can probably force the installation.

So I am not the only person ever to wonder that. Not surprising....but it certainly is a shame that I don't use other people's mods. At least the option is there, though.

Tresset

Yeah, pretty much all of whats mentioned here is really annoying to me. I usually take the 'get committed by the pirate lord' route because what happens after that makes a little more sense. But still, if you do take that route then when Irenicus does finally show up the dialog choices presented are all make charname seem rather stupid.

Lathlaer

SionIV said:

Ploughed_Jester said:

Then change it for the player too. It absolutely kills suspension of disbelief.

So they should get another voice actor to do him?

And there are several parts of the Baldur's Gate series that are like this. What you're talking about here is exactly the same with Koveras in BG1.

Well, actors CAN change their voice. Compare Dynaheir to Mazzy to FemShep from Mass Effect series (Jennifer Hale is the easiest example given her track record ).