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Building a Mage: I could use some advice

StormvesselStormvessel Member Posts: 654
I am going to roll a mage (BGEE), and I plan to take him all the way through ToB. But first, there are a few things I would like to clear up:

1. I am choosing Conjurer over a Sorcerer because I feel that would be better for a newer character and potentially more powerful endgame (due to higher level spells).

I assume this is true?

2. I hope to roll a 98 and spend the points as follows:

Str 10
Dx 18
Cn 16
Int 18
Ws 16 (for wish and lore)
Ch 18

Is this ideal?

3. Here is the big question:

I feel Quarterstaffs are useless for casters because I am going to be at range, but for early on, I may need to do some fighting. So I was thinking Dagger instead of Slings or Darts.

Would dagger (for throwing daggers) be a viable option to be proficient in? Are good throwing daggers plentiful in the game and is that a good option for a Mage?

This is my first caster in Baldur's Gate. Any tips for playing Mage would be very much appreciated.
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Comments

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    If you plan on getting a 98 roll (tough roll) I would drop the charisma by 2 and pump up the wisdom to 18.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    Throwing daggers will be tough with such a low strength score.
  • StormvesselStormvessel Member Posts: 654
    edited May 2014
    elminster said:

    If you plan on getting a 98 roll (tough roll) I would drop the charisma by 2 and pump up the wisdom to 18.

    I use autoroller. 16 charisma and 18 wisdom - I can do that. I was just thinking maybe the quest rewards would be better with 18 charisma - I know for a fact in the tutorial there is a reward that is only available for 18 charisma.
    jackjack said:

    Throwing daggers will be tough with such a low strength score.

    Perhaps Darts or Daggers would be better? Would Darts outdo Daggers seeing as how I have a low strength?

    Maybe I should dump charisma and pump the strength up to 18, and go with SLINGS?

    18
    18
    16
    18
    18
    10
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    You could safely reduce your wisdom to 14 or 15, because you will increase you wisdom by 3 points in BG1 et 1 additionnal point in Watcher's Keep pumping it to 18 which is enough for Wish.

    If you really want to min/max I would decrease Charisma to 10 to reach 18 Str which is better mechanically wise.

    You could also put 17 in Con to be able to use the claw with the Tome of Constitution.
  • StormvesselStormvessel Member Posts: 654
    edited May 2014
    18 st
    18 dx
    17 con
    18 int
    15 wis
    12 cha

    And go with Slings? Maybe I will make him chaotic evil.

    Edit: It seems there is no benefit to having 12 cha over 10 cha. Maybe I will go with 17 wis and 10 cha.
  • luskanluskan Member Posts: 269
    Conjurer is a great specialist school. Very little downside in terms of the spells you can't cast. A sorcerer is not a good choice for a first time playthrough as you need to know what spells work well together as you can't change them every time you rest.

    Good strength plus slings is nice due to to hit bonuses. The ammo doesn't weigh you down or take a lot of inventory space unlike throwing daggers or darts.

    You still need a staff or dagger for melee if only to equip when you're attacked directly in melee to prevent the attacker from getting a to-hit bonus against you. Yes you'll have mirror image for defense but why make it easier for your enemies to take down your defences? You don't need to take a pip in them unless you want to attack with them too.

    As a mage you can get away with 13 charisma, as the tomb plus a Friends spell gets you to 20 easily enough.
  • StormvesselStormvessel Member Posts: 654
    Thanks for the advice luskan! I just hate to waste a prof point in QS or dagger seeing as how I am going to be attacking at range - I can still use the QS or Dagger without being proficient in it, perhaps even without proficiency it would still negate any enemy bonus.
    Tresset said:

    Have you considered a wild mage? They are very 'high risk, high reward' but they get incredibly powerful in BG2.

    I thought about Wild Mage, but 5% seems very high. I wish there was a way to get it back to 1% by editing the INI or something. A 5% surge possibility would cause a whole lot of quick-saving and subsequent reloading.
  • AurorusAurorus Member Posts: 201
    I recommend against slings for a mage. They only get 1 attack per round and while you can add your strength bonus to the damage, you can also do this for daggers, which get 2 attacks per round.

    I would start off with proficiency in darts. This is the best damage that a mage can do. You get 3 attacks per round; darts of fire and acid (adding d6 or 3d6 if you hit with all three in a round) are cheap at High hedge; darts of wounding are great both for pure dps and for disrupting mage spells; darts of stunning are very, very good (after stunning a target, you can use fire darts and score 3 automatic hits for a possible 3d6 additional fire damage). Darts also combo well with greater malison as the fire, acid, cold darts are save v. spells.

    You do not want your mage to melee at all for the first few levels as you just do not have enough hit points, and no helmet means that any 20 an enemy rolls is likely to kill you.

    At level 6, I would take dagger for the Dagger of Venom in BGI. This is about the best you are going to do in melee for a straight mage. You can get in a quick hit with it and then withdraw. It is very good against disabled or held targets, which is all you should really be using a melee attack against any way.

    At level 12 take staff for all the great staffs in BGII. This also coincides roughly with the time you will begin to want to use Tenser´s Transformation possibly and there are many good staffs to melee with in BGII.
  • AurorusAurorus Member Posts: 201
    As an aside... actually the best way to melee with a mage in BGI is to use Relair´s Mistake, the cloak from the Golem Cave. It sets your strength to 18, your damage to d8, and gives you 2 attacks per round. You can cast shield or Ghost armor as well to get a modest AC of 1 or 2 in the wolf form. Just use darts and the cloak until you can get the dagger of venom. I would not bother with staffs at all until BGII.

    Going into BGII, daggers are better than darts as poison throwing daggers are available quickly. The dagger should hold you over for both range and melee until you get staff at level 12.
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    No, this is great. I wouldn't make any changes to the character in the OP. 18 cha is totally worth it, and daggers are great.
  • luskanluskan Member Posts: 269

    Thanks for the advice luskan! I just hate to waste a prof point in QS or dagger seeing as how I am going to be attacking at range - I can still use the QS or Dagger without being proficient in it, perhaps even without proficiency it would still negate any enemy bonus.

    You're welcome. And that's correct, just equipping one negates the enemy bonus, no proficiencies needed. Only use them to attack when the enemy is disabled (asleep for example) as all attacks auto hit. But generally speaking a mage should avoid melee at all costs. This tip is really for the first couple of levels when you don't have a lot of spells and the enemy makes their saving throw, or you get ambushed and you need to run near them to escape.
  • ZaknafeinBaenreZaknafeinBaenre Member Posts: 349
    go with the darts!
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268

    Tresset said:

    Have you considered a wild mage? They are very 'high risk, high reward' but they get incredibly powerful in BG2.

    I thought about Wild Mage, but 5% seems very high. I wish there was a way to get it back to 1% by editing the INI or something. A 5% surge possibility would cause a whole lot of quick-saving and subsequent reloading.
    Yeah, I can't say I blame you there. If I have not lost all my math skills, 5% is a 1 in 20 chance per casting. There are no ways to decrease the 5% chance of surging but there are spells (the chaos shields) and items (2 of them in BG2) that will make it far more likely that if you do get a wild surge, it will be the cast normally surge. Chaos Shield (level 2) adds a 15% chance of the spell being cast normally while Improved Chaos Shield adds a whopping 25% chance of the spell being cast normally. The two items (both available as part of Neera's BG2 quests) each add a 15% chance for a normal casting. While you cannot have both Chaos Shield spells active at the same time, the effects of the Chaos Shield spells will stack with both of the items that I mentioned. This means that with both items equipped and an Improved Chaos Shield in effect you will have an incredible 55% chance of a wild surge being spell cast normally. This chance can increase further if you use Nahal's Reckless Dowemer with these two items since NRD adds 1% per level to this chance. So a level 20 wild mage with Improved Chaos Shield and both equipments would have a 75% chance of casting the spell successfully! That is some amazing power! The only drawback to NRD is that it causes a wild surge 100% of the time you use it...
  • Mule72Mule72 Member Posts: 9
    edited May 2014
    Your build is largely irrelevant for a mage/sorcerer (more so for a sorcerer) as power is almost solely based on spells rather than stats.

    However, if you wanted to really min/max with a 98 roll...
    Str - 18
    Dex - 18
    Con - 15 (+1 in BG1 will max you out at 16 for +2 hp/level)
    Int - 18
    Wis - 15 (+3 in BG1, -1+1 in BG2 - you lose one point in the dream, and gain another point in Watcher's Keep, 18 will let you always get a good option with Wish)
    Cha - 14

    This is ignoring the Hell trial bonuses. I could be mistaken but I believe...
    If you are good you will also gain : +1 Wis, +1 Cha, -1 Dex (you can adjust accordingly)
    If you are evil you will gain: +2 Str, +2 Con, +1 Int
    Be aware these are at the very end of SoA, so you will only play ToB with these bonuses, therefore, it may or may not be worth it to min/max.

    I would argue that a sorcerer is actually much more powerful than a conjurer. There are really no more than 4/5 good spells for each level to know anyways, so the flexibility to cast them as needed is much more powerful than knowing more total spells in my opinion.

    Edwin is a more powerful conjurer than charname can be anyways, because his amulet gives +1 spells/day.

    As for weapons (like I said, largely irrelevant but its annoying to have your character doing nothing each battle), I am partial to dagger/darts in BG2 because there are some nice returning ones you can find early and I usually give slings to someone else in my party (Viconia). But strictly speaking I think the Sling of Everard is the most powerful??

    For BG1 I don't think there are any significant magic weapons, so I would agree darts are probably best?
  • ApocryphaApocrypha Member Posts: 105
    edited May 2014
    Those stats are going to be pretty hard to get. I hate to suggest dumping CHA because roleplaying > powergaming imo, but if you had to lose points from a stat, that'd be the one. Friends works fine as a CHA-boost anyway. I wouldn't take CON over 16, either, because you stop gaining bonus hitpoints at 16. There are also several tomes in the game that will permanently boost your stats, so you can lower them a bit to account for that. Mages don't need STR, especially since the Strength spell will automatically boost it for you, so there's no need to try and get it that high.

    If you go after the tomes, then this:

    9 STR
    17 DEX
    15 CON
    18 INT
    15 WIS
    12 CHA

    would work fine for your stats. All of them except for Wisdom will be increased by 1; there are 3 tomes for Wisdom, so that's 3 extra points, hence the lower score.

    Playing a wild mage myself, I can assure you they're a lot of fun. The 5% surge chance isn't as threatening as it sounds, particularly when there's only a 33% chance the surge will be negative, and of those surges, only two or three are game overs; the others are just inconvienent. Later on, once you start gaining levels, you'll start getting positive surges more often, and Nahal's Reckless Dweomer allows a lot of versatility in your spellcasting.

    If you aren't interested in that, I would recommend Conjurer over Sorcerer, because Sorcerers leave little room for error in spell choice, and Conjuration's opposing school has very few worthwhile spells.

    Avoid slings. There are a few decent ones in TOB, but early on they're an awful choice. Darts or daggers is better. Sadly, quarterstaves are slightly useless, since you should never ever ever be in melee, but you'll want a proficiency point in them anyway for the really nice staves in BGII and TOB.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    Mule72 said:

    For BG1 I don't think there are any significant magic weapons, so I would agree darts are probably best?

    Well, darts are probably the best ranged weapon for a BG1 mage all things considered... But there are 2 melee weapons that could potentially be significant... First there is the Dagger of Venom, which is significant because the poison effect adds enough damage to make up for the mage's 1 APR if the save is failed. The other is the Staff of Striking which just plain does a ton of damage.
  • AurorusAurorus Member Posts: 201


    Yeah, I can't say I blame you there. If I have not lost all my math skills, 5% is a 1 in 20 chance per casting. There are no ways to decrease the 5% chance of surging but there are spells (the chaos shields) and items (2 of them in BG2) that will make it far more likely that if you do get a wild surge, it will be the cast normally surge. Chaos Shield (level 2) adds a 15% chance of the spell being cast normally while Improved Chaos Shield adds a whopping 25% chance of the spell being cast normally. The two items (both available as part of Neera's BG2 quests) each add a 15% chance for a normal casting. .

    I was using Neera on a recent play-through, and she can actually be pretty good with the chaos shield. The effects that you really want to avoid (fireball centered on caster) and summon Pit Fiend require pretty low rolls on the spell surge table. With just the 2nd level chaos shield, Fireballing yourself become impossible by level 8 (as you have +23 to the roll and fireball is 22). Just stay away from other people when buffing yourself and don´t use your spells to buff others (especially early on). The fireballs centered on you do not damage you. Also if you keep yourself buffed with a protection from evil or keep a scroll in your pocket, the Pit Fiend surge can actually be really helpful.

  • StormvesselStormvessel Member Posts: 654
    edited May 2014
    Thanks guys! I really appreciate all the input!

    I went with an Elf Wild Mage. I couldn't get the 98 but I did manage a 96. Here are his stats:

    18 str
    19 dex
    16 con
    18 int
    15 wis (I will get the 3 wis tomes to get to 18 so I can use WISH in SoA)
    10 cha (No difference between 10 and 12)

    I went with dagger for my first proficiency and with 18 str and 19 dex I plan to throw daggers like crazy.

    My alignment is Chaotic Evil, and not having a high cha, I wonder if I will be attacked in towns by villigers? Also, will not having a high charisma cause evil party members to attack me?

    I can reroll if this is bad.
  • StormvesselStormvessel Member Posts: 654
    edited May 2014
    Thanks Tresset. Are the items restricted to neutral in regards to morality or law? What about neutral evil or chaotic neutral?
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    It is only one of the two wild mage items that has the restriction and it is only usable by Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, and Chaotic Neutral.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    edited May 2014
    Would have to be on the morality axis, as Neera is Chaotic Neutral, and she can use them.
    Edit: Shrimp-Ninja'd!
  • StormvesselStormvessel Member Posts: 654
    Thanks guys.

    I plan to just be a real bastard. I am not going to worry about reputation in the least. My character is named "Odious", and I am going to slaughter NPCs and whoever else gets in my way.
  • StormvesselStormvessel Member Posts: 654
    edited May 2014
    Thanks!

    I am going to roll a Cleric, also. A priest of Talos. That way I can play one char when I'm sick of the other.

    Last question! Will dual-wielding and flails be viable on a cleric or is sword n board recommended? I figured with Stormshield sword and boarding is a tad redundant and better to go in swinging away? I put a point in flails and a point in dual-wield. I am shooting for flail of the ages in BG2. My cleric has 18st, 19dx, 16con, 11int (for mindflayers), 18wis, and 13cha.

    Edit: no dual-wield specialization for pure clerics :(
    Post edited by Stormvessel on
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    Clerics can only put one Proficiency point in dual-wielding, even in 2E P&P it's like this (unlike rouges).
  • StormvesselStormvessel Member Posts: 654
    CrevsDaak said:

    Clerics can only put one Proficiency point in dual-wielding, even in 2E P&P it's like this (unlike rouges).

    Yea I realize that now. I will scratch that char and build one with hammers. I will worry about flails later.
  • ApocryphaApocrypha Member Posts: 105
    If you really want a dual-wielding Cleric, you could do a multiclass Cleric/Ranger or a dual class Ranger -> Cleric...that technically allows you to put points in dual-wielding.
  • StormvesselStormvessel Member Posts: 654
    edited May 2014
    Thanks, but I had to completely start over due to screwing up the proficiency (because of my oversight). I am going to stick with a Wild Mage - I heard somewhere they are the most powerful endgame casters in ToB and by a fair margin, beating out even Sorcerers.

    I really don't see the endgame appeal with a Wild Mage seeing as how at spell cap reckless dweomer loses much of it's usefulness. Unless I am missing something...Do Wild Surges actually become really useful and almost always good at a certain point, making reckless dweomer useful for something other than desperation and/or attempting to cast higher level spells?
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