Have googled & read faq but haven't found an answer.. are shapeshifters fixed?

Uncumber

Hi there!

I've just gone and bought bgee for my android phone and I have to say I'm loving the ability to now play bg when I'm out and about AS WELL as at home now ^^

However.. as probably most of us know, shapeshifters in baldurs gate had a bit of stick because various things weren't implented that ought to have been. I've spent the last hour or so trying to see if they've been fixed in bgee but can't find a solid answer anywhere - so really, apologies for treading over what must be old ground now, but have they been fixed?

Any information would be much appreciated = )

Uncumber

Loub

No, they are still by far the worst kit in the game - nothing has been done to rectify their dearthful situation, which is really a shame.

Uncumber

Oh that is such a pity! Oh well, thank you for your speedy reply anyway Hopefully they will get balanced out at some point, they've always sounded like such a fun kit.

Now I just have to decide if i want a barbarian, or another mage playthrough.. mmmm.....

DreadKhan

No, Cernd still has his puppy iirc

O_Bruce

Shapeshifters are just druids who traded wearing armor for actually useful Shapeshifting. It's neither inferior nor superior to normal druid.

Gallowglass

I agree with @ZelgadisGW. I've seen a lot of criticism of Shapeshifters, and Cernd (BG2) in particular, but I recently completed a run in which (for the first time) I stuck with Cernd right through to the end, and I was pleasantly surprised to discover that at higher levels he became really useful - his Greater Werewolf form (level 13) is decent in melee even against ToB enemies, and his casting (in human form) is decent once he gets plenty of spells-per-day (level 15). I reckon most of the criticism comes from people who haven't actually stuck with a Shapeshifter long enough to see how good they are later on. It's like Monks - both classes are weak in BG1 and early BG2, but become strong later when their abilities mature.

Uncumber

I believe the problem is not necessarily that they are actually particuarly weak, it's rather that many abilities were not implemented at all in to the game, that were supposed to be (the original BG series that is, not BG:EE - although it appears they weren't implemented in to BG:EE either, I've no clue if they were supposed to be in EE or not ^^).

I haven't got time here to check the manual/game so I'm just going to quote from another forum and hopefully somebody here will correct me if I'm wrong - but I believe the following is true -

''It's not that the shape shifter is bad. The problem is that it didn't get the abilities it was supposed to.

Quoted from the Ease of Use Readme:

Werewolf

You Were Supposed To Get-------------You Actually Got
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~---------~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Base Magic Res 20%---------------------Magic Res *LOCKED AT* 20%
Immunity to Normal Weapons----------Nothing
Paw = 1d12 slashing----------------------Paw = 1d6 piercing

For the Greater Werewolf ...

You Were Supposed To Get---------------You Actually Got
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~-----------~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THAC0 6-----------------------------------------Nothing
Saves 1/1/1/2/1--------------------------------Nothing
Base Elemental Res 50%-----------------Elemental Res *LOCKED AT* 50%
Base Magic Res 40%-----------------------Magic Res *LOCKED AT* 40%
Immunity to Normal Weapons------------Nothing
Paw = +3 Weapon----------------------------Paw = +2 Weapon
Paw = 2d8 slashing--------------------------Paw = 1d6 piercing
Regeneration 3 HP / second--------------Nothing''

elminster

Well for one thing in BGEE/BG2EE the elemental resistance is no longer locked. So that is a change (for the better).

Anyways this is just my assessment of the situation. If someone knows someone on the original BG2 development team (like David Gaider) who can provide an idea of what was intended and not then feel free to rip it apart (or rip it apart anyways )

Before I begin with this obscenely long post I just want to point out that I came to this understanding three ways. Firstly, looking through the game files (for werewolves in this case). To me these are really important because seeing differences between various files shows perhaps where the development team wanted to change things (for instance the regular werewolfs you fight in the game don't have magic resistance, so to me adding it was an intended change).

Secondly by (in this case) looking at how other shapeshift forms work in the game to see what (if anything) is different about how the werewolf forms work.

Finally, how it works in PnP (pen and paper). Yes I know, the game is not PnP, so PnP only (as far as I'm concerned) can provide a possible understanding for why some things were done.



Werewolf

You Were Supposed To Get-------------You Actually Got
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~---------~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Base Magic Res 20%---------------------Magic Res *LOCKED AT* 20%
Immunity to Normal Weapons----------Nothing
Paw = 1d12 slashing----------------------Paw = 1d6 piercing


A lot of this stuff regarding what werewolves should and shouldn't have is subjective.

In terms of what the regular werewolfs actually get I know there was some talk of having them improved in ToB, but I don't know if anything official was ever posted about it (that had specific improvements I mean).

Magic resistance should probably be locked at 20%. From my testing in BG2EE all of the shapeshifting forms I tested ignore items you are wearing that improve your magic resistance. So I don't see why the werewolf would be different.

You should get immunity to normal weapons (with the exception of silver weapons) if you want to follow both PnP and the ring found on the creature file the druid uses for the form.

The 1d12 slashing vs 1d6 piercing is a bit more complicated. They both use itm files that are used by other creature files that have nothing to do with them (for instance the 1d12 slashing attack is the same one used by King Ixilthetocal and the piercing attack is the same itm file that shapeshift: brown bear uses). Also, while I personally favour giving them slashing damage because of how the animations look, Monstrous Commendium says that werewolves (when in their werewolf form) actually attack with their teeth (which I think piercing damage is the best fit for). So while piercing damage is certainly not ideal, I can certainly see why it would have been chosen. Also Monstrous Commendium also says werewolves get 2-8 damage (which would be 2d4), which just complicates things.


For the Greater Werewolf

You Were Supposed To Get---------------You Actually Got
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~-----------~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THAC0 6-----------------------------------------Nothing
Saves 1/1/1/2/1--------------------------------Nothing
Base Elemental Res 50%-----------------Elemental Res *LOCKED AT* 50%
Base Magic Res 40%-----------------------Magic Res *LOCKED AT* 40%
Immunity to Normal Weapons------------Nothing
Paw = +3 Weapon----------------------------Paw = +2 Weapon
Paw = 2d8 slashing--------------------------Paw = 1d6 piercing
Regeneration 3 HP / second--------------Nothing''

As far as I'm aware P&P doesn't have a greater werewolf form (at least not in second edition). There is a Greater Wolfwere (not the same thing obviously) mentioned in Ravenloft's Monstrous Compendium Appendices I and 2 (page 66) but from what I know nothing was really fleshed out in PnP in terms of Greater Werewolfs.

When it comes to the Thac0 boost many shapeshifting forms don't actually get a specific boost to your base Thac0. Some do (like the Earth and Fire Elemental Transformation HLA's) but most don't. Their Thac0 will be increased of course if your strength improves (which will likely happen with the Greater Werewolf form) just not by a specific effect that boosts base Thac0. Anyways, considering I can't find mention of the Greater Werewolf form in PnP I don't see why you were supposed to get a Thac0 boost.

I don't see why you'd get a saving throw boost. I don't think you normally do with any other shapeshifted form.

Elemental resistance is no longer locked.

As I wrote above I don't see why magic resistance would be anything other than locked, given how other shapeshifting forms work.

Should be immune to normal weapons.

The 2d8 slashing damage (as a +3 weapon) uses an item file that is only used by the creature file that you use for transforming into the Greater Werewolf (and you won't otherwise run into that creature file in the game). So I think there is actually a very good case to be made for that here.

Regeneration is a unclear. I'm assuming the idea behind it may have come from the fact that in PnP werewolves are considered immune to normal weapons because " wounds from [normal weapons] heal too quickly to actually injure the werewolf."

Mechanically there are two different things here. There is a separate regeneration effect of 3hp/second that the creature file has, but it also has a ring that grants 6hp/second. 3hp/second is probably more reasonable but considering you get it at level 13 it kind of makes the form absurdly overpowered (you already have at least -10 AC, 50% elemental resistances, and 40% magic resistance at only 750,000xp). Anyways this could have been something they wanted to work, or not. I really don't know.

So in short I guess I could say its not as clear cut as that list implies.

CamDawg

Just a quick note--while Wes' 'should have' list for the werewolf forms is based on stats of other werewolves in the game, there's a reason why the PC doesn't get those perks. The immunity to normal weapons, by itself, would make the majority of enemies in BGEE ineffective.

Wes, in general, tended to balance stuff like this against his own baseline of a Tactics-level game, in which case the power of his Shapeshifter Rebalancing would fit in a little better.

Danacm

It seems, the new patch let the magic resist to stack. And the greater werewolf form in pnp is loup garouhttp://www.lomion.de/cmm/lycaloga.php

It has regeneration of 1hp per turn.

matrice

Well elminster, you pointed something important:
The fact that IF greater werewolf were getting the "true" power, then by the moment you get it, it would be way too strong. But we could definitly have an hla (instead of the elemental shapeshift one) that increase the power of greater werewolf -similar to how bard song get improved with an hla-

Yann1989

Interesting... Eventually I'd like Beamdog to give love to some kits like this one, and why not some new ones.

Ilinca

matrice said:

Well elminster, you pointed something important:
The fact that IF greater werewolf were getting the "true" power, then by the moment you get it, it would be way too strong. But we could definitly have an hla (instead of the elemental shapeshift one) that increase the power of greater werewolf -similar to how bard song get improved with an hla-

Obviously level 13 is early on and the greater werewolf is really powerful in early on in SOA but when you get to TOB it falls off pretty harshly. So maybe the correct answer is to add a third werewolf form as an HLA with better damage, crazy regen, and protection from normal weapons can call it Werewolf Master or Loup Garuo or something.

Quique

I like the idea of a HLA. Greater Werewolf's biggest issue is how it falls behind over time I think.