Would you prefer a mod NPC Thief, to be able to dual-class into a Thief/Mage or Thief/Fighter.

Ravenslight

In Baldur’s Gate I, Imoen’s stats allow her to be dual-classed into a Thief/Mage. Many people like this option, and choose to take advantage of it. My question is, would most people like the option to dual-class a Thief into a Thief/Mage or Thief/Fighter, with a mod NPC?

Gallowglass

No point in another Thief->Mage for BG1, since we've already got Imoen for that role.

I'm not sure whether I'd take advantage of the option to dual an NPC Thief to Fighter, but at least it'd be a new option.

But there again, BG1 (unlike BG2) already has an adequate selection of Thief NPCs, so I'm not convinced there's any call for adding another.

Ravenslight

I agree, there are choices for party Thief NPCs in BGI. This NPC’s journey with the PC will continue into BGII however.

Corvino

If it were an option I'd prefer a Fighter/Thief multiclass, as Thief to Fighter duals miss out on thief HLAs and skill progression. I'm a bit biased towards F/Ts though.

Gallowglass

@Corvino - we don't need a new Fighter/Thief for BG1 (since we've already got Coran for the Good guys and Montaron for the Evil guys), but I'll agree that the absence of a recruitable F/T in BG2 is a conspicuous gap.

Ravenslight

Corvino said:

If it were an option I'd prefer a Fighter/Thief multiclass, as Thief to Fighter duals miss out on thief HLAs and skill progression. I'm a bit biased towards F/Ts though.

Unfortunately, his being a thief at the start is an inseparable part of his character.

Kamigoroshi

No option for Thief/Cleric..? This makes Tiax sad. :-(

Ravenslight

Kamigoroshi said:

No option for Thief/Cleric..? This makes Tiax sad. :-(

Hmm…. You stumped me with that one. He is intelligent, but wise enough…. I’m not sure I could make that fit.

SionIV

Don't need another Thief -> Mage in BG2.

Don't need a Fighter -> Thief either.

We do need a real thief though, one that isn't a vampire.

Ravenslight

SionIV said:

Don't need another Thief -> Mage in BG2.

Don't need a Fighter -> Thief either.

We do need a real thief though, one that isn't a vampire.

He is definitely a thief. It is only the option of being able to dual-class him that is in question.

SionIV

Ravenslight said:

SionIV said:

Don't need another Thief -> Mage in BG2.

Don't need a Fighter -> Thief either.

We do need a real thief though, one that isn't a vampire.

He is definitely a thief. It is only the option of being able to dual-class him that is in question.

Then go a little bit unique and let people dual class him to a cleric. You can RP that he'll end up a cleric of Mask. If you're making dialogues and quests for him then you can make a quest that if chosen correctly with dialogues you'll gain +2 wisdom or something like that, which will let him dual class to a cleric.

Ravenslight

As much as I like the idea of a Cleric/Thief possibility, it really doesn’t fit him. Without getting into spoilers here, there are things in his past that would make such a choice unlikely. I do like your idea though.

SionIV

Ravenslight said:

As much as I like the idea of a Cleric/Thief possibility, it really doesn’t fit him. Without getting into spoilers here, there are things in his past that would make such a choice unlikely. I do like your idea though.

That is fine, but i don't really see Thief -> Fighter make sense from a RP perspective. It's almost always the other way around.

And the whole Thief -> Mage part has just been overdone in BG2.

Ravenslight

I find the response to my question very interesting so far. I had thought there would be more who would like the option to dual into a Thief /Mage as Imoen can. My thinking was those who are used to doing so, but want a romanceable, or just different NPC for a change, would like the option. Very interesting, thank you everyone. I look forward to more of your opinions.

Blackraven

@Ravenslight, I like three things a lot:
1) A new NPC seems to be in the making!
2) You're asking us for in input.
3) Dual-classing would be optional.

Like previous posters I would be most interested in the option to dual to Fighter (or Cleric, as has been proposed).

SionIV

Ravenslight said:

I find the response to my question very interesting so far. I had thought there would be more who would like the option to dual into a Thief /Mage as Imoen can. My thinking was those who are used to doing so, but want a romanceable, or just different NPC for a change, would like the option. Very interesting, thank you everyone. I look forward to more of your opinions.

If you made an NPC that was a thief you could dual to a mage, people could pick which level to dual class and this would make Nalia, Imoen and to some extent Jan obsolete. The only reason you would pick one of them would be for dialogue, because your NPC would be more powerful and better optimized when it comes to gameplay.

It's lovely to make a NPC but once they start making the original cast obsolete , it's a problem in my opinion. This is the danger with having NPC's that can dual class. Had you gotten Sarevok earlier in the game he would have made every single other thief useless.

Ravenslight

You folks have me thinking here. Though it wouldn't make sense for his character in the BGI portion of the story, there is much possibility for change in his character during his travels with the PC in BGI, including an alignment change. So I’m thinking it might be possible to work in the ability to dual-class him into a Thief/Cleric in BGII. Especially in a bonded romance track with the PC. I will have to think about this more, and keep the possibility in mind for BGII.

CrevsDaak

I would really like a Thief/Fighter, so my PC can freely be a Swashbuckler and use a party without loosing (insanely powerful) backstabs.

Quartz

@Ravenslight , as I too am in the process of writing a NPC, I want some advice.

The mod NPC's interactions with existing characters. what do???????????

Seriously though ... does *anybody* have any advice for me on this? It's VERY difficult to try to emulate the personality and especially writing style of the existing NPCs. It's what's holding me back the most, by a long shot.

Ravenslight

Quartz said:

@Ravenslight , as I too am in the process of writing a NPC, I want some advice.

The mod NPC's interactions with existing characters. what do???????????

Seriously though ... does *anybody* have any advice for me on this? It's VERY difficult to try to emulate the personality and especially writing style of the existing NPCs. It's what's holding me back the most, by a long shot.

I think the answer to this question is probably different for everyone who tries to write them, and I am no expert. I can only tell you how it is working for me. The character has to kind of take over in my head. Usually Kerick, my NPC, will just start talking, or reacting to something about the other NPC in my head and I start writing it down. I have found some NPCs much more difficult then others to write for. It has helped for me to actually play the game with them in my party and try to get lost in role-playing the game. Some NPCs I have never liked and I find they are harder to write for. I try and let Kerick stay in character and he often surprises me with what he chooses to do or say with other NPCs. It doesn’t work for me to try and force it. I feel your frustration Quartz. It can be very difficult at times, but please keep pushing forward! I look forward to the day I will be able to play with your NPC in my game.

Now coding the thing… Talk about nightmares. It is my firm belief that we would have so many more wonderful NPCs for our game, if the learning curve was not so great for coding. I am referring to all us coding challenged people, of course. I know it comes more easily to some. Thankfully, my husband has taken on that challenge, but it is a slow process. Six months of stolen free time moments, and it is only now that we are beginning to be able to see Kerick dancing around in game, making a nuisance of himself.

elminster

I'd prefer a thief you can dual class to a fighter. I mean you can do this with yoshimo but...well...you know

CrevsDaak

Ravenslight said:

So I’m thinking it might be possible to work in the ability to dual-class him into a Thief/Cleric in BGII.

Dual-classing won't be possible, but you can completely change his class, he should retain his Fighter APR as well as proficiencies (which most could be rendered useless).
I recommend using a spell (SPL file format) that turns him into such, OR appending the game's main script (BALDUR.BCS, and BALDUR25.BCS for ToB) to make him of that class.

Also, to help with the coding... I would recommend WeiDU's documentation and the IESDP (the Infinity Engine Structures Description Project), which are both of great help.
Branwen NPC mod for BG2 is a tutorial besides a mod, I think you could take a look for some ideas in coding.

Ravenslight

CrevsDaak said:

Ravenslight said:

So I’m thinking it might be possible to work in the ability to dual-class him into a Thief/Cleric in BGII.

Dual-classing won't be possible, but you can completely change his class, he should retain his Fighter APR as well as proficiencies (which most could be rendered useless).
I recommend using a spell (SPL file format) that turns him into such, OR appending the game's main script (BALDUR.BCS, and BALDUR25.BCS for ToB) to make him of that class.

Also, to help with the coding... I would recommend WeiDU's documentation and the IESDP (the Infinity Engine Structures Description Project), which are both of great help.
Branwen NPC mod for BG2 is a tutorial besides a mod, I think you could take a look for some ideas in coding.

Thank you! We have been pouring over all the things you recommended for months now. Very helpful. As well as many bits and pieces from numerous discussions in the forums at Spellhold Studios, Gibberlings 3 and The Pocket Plane. Though there has often been a gap between reading and understanding.

Eadwyn_G8keeper

A Thief/Bard multiclass would be my choice even though not a legitimate option. The Thief and Bard classes seem like a perfect RP fit and could hardly be considered OP.

The point of the character would be to assemble a play-through party that was heavily stealth-oriented.
That would seem imo to be a very normal Charname reaction when faced with an unknown threat or threats with very few established connections, finances or power base.

Ravenslight

Eadwyn_G8keeper said:

A Thief/Bard multiclass would be my choice even though not a legitimate option. The Thief and Bard classes seem like a perfect RP fit and could hardly be considered OP.

The point of the character would be to assemble a play-through party that was heavily stealth-oriented.
That would seem imo to be a very normal Charname reaction when faced with an unknown threat or threats with very few established connections, finances or power base.

I really like this idea. I always thought that bard’s should have more thief abilities. When I think of bard’s, I think mischievous.

SionIV

Ravenslight said:

Eadwyn_G8keeper said:

A Thief/Bard multiclass would be my choice even though not a legitimate option. The Thief and Bard classes seem like a perfect RP fit and could hardly be considered OP.

The point of the character would be to assemble a play-through party that was heavily stealth-oriented.
That would seem imo to be a very normal Charname reaction when faced with an unknown threat or threats with very few established connections, finances or power base.

I really like this idea. I always thought that bard’s should have more thief abilities. When I think of bard’s, I think mischievous.

If they had more thief abilities, no one would play a thief.

Ravenslight

SionIV said:

Ravenslight said:

Eadwyn_G8keeper said:

A Thief/Bard multiclass would be my choice even though not a legitimate option. The Thief and Bard classes seem like a perfect RP fit and could hardly be considered OP.

The point of the character would be to assemble a play-through party that was heavily stealth-oriented.
That would seem imo to be a very normal Charname reaction when faced with an unknown threat or threats with very few established connections, finances or power base.

I really like this idea. I always thought that bard’s should have more thief abilities. When I think of bard’s, I think mischievous.

If they had more thief abilities, no one would play a thief.

I would! But I think a Thief/Bard might be fun to try too.

booinyoureyes

I'd actually like a character with multiple dual class options, maybe depending on what you do with them (for example Quest A give yous enough wisdom to dual to cleric, while Quest B adds intelligence to let you dual to mage or Quest C that gives you the strength for a fighter)

Overall, I wish there were characters that can be *effectively* dual-classed in BG2 the way that Xzar, Dynaheir, Safana, Imoen and Shar-Teel could in the first game. Wow that's a lot compared to what you are offered in BG2 (Yoshimo for literally a minute if you are lucky or Sarevok... the world's longest long term investment)

Eadwyn_G8keeper

SionIV said:

Ravenslight said:

Eadwyn_G8keeper said:

A

I really like this idea. I always thought that bard’s should have more thief abilities. When I think of bard’s, I think mischievous.

If they had more thief abilities, no one would play a thief.

Playing a gimped Thief/Mage class with customized self-imposed limitations on his Spellbook you could easily pretend in the RP playthrough that your character is actually a Thief/Bard as far as the head-canon is involved. Something like only 1 Spell of each level memorized plus Wands and Scrolls. With no limits on Charm Person and only a few good higher level spells available such as Slow or Greater Malison.

Then you could just imagine the Celtic Harp and poetry-songs as a general influence in the party accounting for a long string of improbably good decisions. Anyhow, just a thought.

It's probably important to remember that in "real" AD&D magic involves having various spell components on one's person. A rather specialized behavior if one has more than one or two such resources.

Ravenslight

Hmm… I may try something like this. I love trying interesting RP characters.

Saber83

I prefer multi-class Fighter/Thief, pretty much for the same reasons @Corvino said. I never backstab much but I prefer having those other skills staying up to date with my fighter skills. But between the two available I still prefer Fighter/Thief dual class.

It also depends at what level you dual to which class.