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some statistics on ability rolls - and a mea culpa on rerollitis

BG uses a total minimum for ability rolls of 75.

We are used to powergaming so much so that a roll of 75 is shunned -- it is used in the extreme challenge runs.
However, a roll of 75 (for a 6 x 3d6 dice roll) is actually about the top 4% of all possible rolls. The median is a mere 63.

Basically, the engine forces us to play the cream of the cream among humans.

Now, let's look at a Sarevok's stats:

(as of BG1) 18+17+17+14+12+13 = 91
(as of BG2) 18+17+18+17+10+15 = 95
[and an exceptional strength score of 100 for both cases]

Assuming that you are brothers and all, you wanna roll identically high stats as Godchild:

For BG1 stats (91 total) this is about 0.003% odds.
Yes. That 91 roll you have has a chance of only 3 in 100,000.
(Of course, you see it more often than re-rolling 100,000 times, because (i) the engine discards already mediocre and bad rolls and (ii) many classes have minimum stat requirements which further skew the odds in your favor.)

For BG2 stats (95 total) the odds are about 1 in a million, literally.

=====

Here is my own mea culpa for a new run I will engage:

Assume that I AM a godchild. At least as good as Sarevok. A worthy challenger to a God's portfolio, at least in potential.

I will run the RNG and take the FIRST roll that returns better or equal to 91 in total (matching Sarevok in BG1).
Re-arrange stats as I wish, matching the 6 rolls to the abilities (but no minmaxing! - so no CHA as a dump stat etc.)

(Here is a pseudo-code that generates such rolls if anyone wants to use. Or you can simply re-roll in game and redistribute in EEkeeper.)

roll[] := Table[
Random[Integer, {1, 6}] + Random[Integer, {1, 6}] +
Random[Integer, {1, 6}]
, {k, 6}];

sumroll[r_] := Sum[r[[k]], {k, 6}]

For[k = 1, k < 1000000, k++,
rt = roll[];
st = sumroll[rt];
If[st >= 91, Print[st, " ", rt]; tc += 1];
];

Print[tc];


Comments

  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,060
    edited June 2014
    Example, with the script above, you roll (first roll >= 91)

    {16,18,15,13,15,15}

    ... you can arrange it as
    18 16 15 15 15 13

    and roll for exceptional strength etc.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,044
    The minimum stats which give no penalties are 8/6/8/10/11/10 but of course you would want 9/9/9/10/11/10 to make certain that the character could be any basic class. The maximum stats which give no bonuses are 15/14/14/14/12/12; the only class of items you cannot use with these stats would be composite long bows, which require 18 str. There is no reason that such a character could not finish the game if backed by a party; trying to solo might be a little difficult without the right mix of items.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    @SethDavis‌ that'd be suicide, not masochism :P
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    Does it have to be solo, or can I have a party?
  • dstoltzfusdstoltzfus Member Posts: 280
    Good post. I am interested in what character that you turn out. The idea is something to keep in mind on my next roll.
  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,060
    edited June 2014
    meagloth said:

    @CrevsDaak‌ i am so proving you wrong.

    *goes to get some popcorn*

    I do believe that an expert can no-reload finish BG/BG2 with a puppy wielding wet sock -- if the party is played well to compensate.

    I don't think *I* can - yet.
    It takes all I can do survive even with my optimized builds... *sigh*

    Good luck @meagloth‌

  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    Ohhhh.... I can't decide if I want it no reload/w party or solo/w reload.... I'll start a new thread when I decide, and stop derailing this one:)
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    edited June 2014
    Ygramul said:

    I do believe that an expert can no-reload finish BG/BG2 with a puppy wielding wet sock -- if the party is played well to compensate.

    I've never tried to do it, and it's not a scenario which appeals to me, but in principle it shouldn't be too hard.

    It's easy enough to assemble a balanced 5-NPC party which contains all the essential skills to win, so you could then add any protagonist (any class, any stats) to the back of the party and keep him/her well away from the action, basically just tagging along behind at a safe distance. I don't think I'd find it much fun to play that way, but I'm sure it's do-able.

    Therefore, if you know the game well enough to succeed in a no-reload game, then you can probably succeed with any protagonist at all.
  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,060
    Here is a qualifier to change things:

    do a FRONTLINE character!
    (Party or solo.)

    That is the real test: can you survive being targeted constantly. (Strategic retreats are fine, of course.)
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Ygramul said:

    do a FRONTLINE character!

    Yes, that'd make it a much tougher challenge.
  • WalstafaWalstafa Member Posts: 116
    How do you figure the likelihood of the 75 minimum against the system most of my DMs have used through history: roll 4d6 per stat and drop the lowest?
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    The actual odds of rolls observed vary significantly by race and class. Elf Rangers and Human Paladins have high minimums in a bunch of stats (causing automatic behind-the-scenes rerolls). You can quite easily roll in the mid 90s with either with a few clicks. Both are capable frontliners too.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    @Corvino in the books I have from older editions, you had to roll the minimum to choose a class. I am pretty sure you roll, pick a race you qualify for, decide what classes you can meet the requirements for, choose which roll is which stat, then voila! You have a party of weak fighters and stupid rogues. Cuz core never let you reroll. Ever. It even had a blurb in one book talking about the rp potential of a character with godawful stats.

    suffice to say, paladins were rarely rolled up.
  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,060
    edited June 2014
    I wish more games were developed with such an unforgiving mentality.
    Of course, now "balance" is regarded an undisputable necessity, especially for multiplayer. Because "win". That's why.

    But D&D, wasn't about "win". It was INTENDED to be about cooperating against dire odds.

    My current OCD about my BG no-reload runs is such that I only take fairly rolled stats:
    i.e. I don't re-arrange ability stats at all!

    I sometimes give in to powergaming (see my above contradictory post) -- but then I delete the character before Nashkel...
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    Ygramul said:

    I sometimes give in to powergaming -- but then I delete the character before Nashkel...

    Funny! For me it's more like:

    "I sometimes give in to powergaming -- and then my character deletes Nashkel..."
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    That will happen... cant make an omelette without brutally sacking a defenceless mining village.

    You know, unless you use eggs.
  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,060
    The only person that I ever mercilessly slaughtered, other than the ones arriving with red-circles around them, was... Minsc. Poor thing was petrified. I was Confused.
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680
    To be honest I'm not sure it adds too much to the difficulty to have bad stats.

    You can avoid fights in Candlekeep, and then use Korax to safely farm basilisks for some quick levels.

    Gauntlets of dex = 18 dex. Girdle of giant strength = 19+ strength. Girdle of fortitude = 18 con (use it then swap it for the strength belt).

    Admittedly the only strength girdle in BG1 is on the Rasad sidequest, but bows are the weapon of choice in BG1 anyway, and strength is irrelevant for these.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    You need decent strength to use longbows iirc, and 18 for comp longbows, the true damage engines of archery. If you cant use the comp, consider the Crossbow of Speed.

    All told, less than great stats are a huge drawback. At level 1, you miss a LOT with a 17 str, even with specialization. If you actually fight with a str penalty, watchout for a gibberling. Stats matter very little in bg2 (gauntlet, girdles and the ring allowed you to be a 19, 18, 18, 3, 3, 18 very early. This is great for a fighter, since you can also buy the glasses of identification, which replace wis and ints main functions. Just remember not to melee Mindflayers!), but are pretty helpful in bg1.
  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,060
    Though there are items to replace bad stats, good stats permit you to use other items instead (Belt of Inertial Barrier, Gauntlets of Extra Specialization etc.).

    One wishes that items were *added* to stats (3rd edition style) instead of *setting* them (2nd edition) thereby rendering any difference between, say, DEX=3 and DEX=17 meaningless (if you put on Gauntlets of Dexterity).
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    Ygramul said:

    One wishes that items were *added* to stats (3rd edition style) instead of *setting* them (2nd edition) thereby rendering any difference between, say, DEX=3 and DEX=17 meaningless (if you put on Gauntlets of Dexterity).

    You can do that very easily with an editor & then a WeiDU for the strings to update their descriptions.
  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    Off-topic:: I routinely equip Khalid with Comp Long Bow and screen shows him having the same THACO and APR as Imoen with her Shortbow. But his Str is only 15 and I am reading here it needs to be 18 for the CLB. -??? [I am playing BG-ToSC
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