toughest class to solo the game as without cheese tactics? (core rules difficulty)
fivetigers
Member Posts: 21
Without abusing things like potions, wands, poor AI, etc. and strictly using class skills/abilities, which class does everyone think would have the roughest time making it through the game alone?
Monk? Bard? Kensai? Sorcerer? Something else?
Monk? Bard? Kensai? Sorcerer? Something else?
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Beastslayer gets less than stellar once those summons get too weak, and have few options beyond Staff of the Ram gor mid/late SOA.
I can imagine Monks and Kensai dying a lot and they can't wear armor or cast protective spells. This means that ambushes, wilderness encounters, the Bandit Camp, and pretty much all physical fights are going to be difficult to survive. You'll be running and quaffing potions a lot...
For BG1 alone, I'd go with the Wizard Slayer or Monk.
For BG1 alone, I'd go with the Wizard Slayer or Monk.
It seems you're interested in this topic in order to test yourself. I too like to make things the hardest way possible, so this topic is very relevant to me. Many other people here are the same:)
If you want to know people's opinion on the subject of the hardest solo runs, check these existing threads as well:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/29163/most-difficult-solo-run
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/2559/what-s-the-easiest-and-hardest-class-classes-to-solo-the-game/p1
But the most relevant is the poll here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/30508/which-is-the-most-difficult-solo-single-class-kit-or-no-kit-for-bg-saga/p1
I've tested several characters and can say that the inability to use potions, rings, amulets and wands makes solo a Wizard Slayer run the toughest of them all.
A Druid run is also hard as well as a Monk run but these guys can at least use wands and potions and the practice shows these two things can single handedly win ANY fight in the game, in BG1 at least (and in BG2 there're many magical items that can serve as well).
But a Wizard Slayer... You know, any single enemy mage or cleric who can cast Horror/Hold Person/Chaos is 50/50 a reason for the end. He's so vulnerable, it's just amazing who he's weak. Yes, he can be a good fighter, he can use armor (unlike a kensai for e.g.) but he's much weaker than even a monk in regards of fighting a spellcaster. It's somehow sad that a character who's called a a Wizard Slayer is more often than not can be easily slayed by Wizards. In the party his downsides can be easily covered by other party members but solo.. it's meh.
So, from my point of view, I see the most difficult character to solo the game as:
90% - Wizard Slayer
5% - Druid (except for the Avenger)
3% - Kensai
2% - Monk
Pure thief is very easy because of stealth, you don't even have to fight most of the hard fights. And the ones you do have to fight can get taken care of by using potions.
A monk isn't that good either, but his speed should be a saving grace.
Why do some people think Druid would be so difficult to solo with? Decent THAC0 and HP plus healing and all their other spells. You could even take the Totemic Druid kit and have a summon to help with battles.
I've never played one, but my understanding is that they can ONLY equip:
Weapon
Shield
Armor
Helm
and that they CAN'T equip:
Necklace
Rings
Cloak
Gauntlets/Bracers
Boots
Belt
and they further CAN'T use:
Potions (including healing potions too?)
Wands
Is my understanding correct?
No class that can wield the Full plate, Large shield +2 and have 15 health per level will be weak. Whatever the people are telling you in this thread, it's not true.
Run a dwarf Wizard Slayer, pick up the constitution tome early on. Pick up the ring of Wizardry, sell it and buy the full plate then go and get a large shield +1 from nashkel. Kill bassilus and sell his equipment so you can buy the Dagger of Venom, get hold of the long sword +2 after that.
* Dagger
** Long Sword
* Dart
He will go through the game without problem, i could even run him in a no-reload solo and only worry about one or two mage fights. He will be able to shut down mages with Darts of Wounding and the Dagger of Venom.
This does change in BG2EE and i'll agree that he is probably the weakest there. But in the original BGEE a warrior will easily go through the game.
No class that can wield the Full plate, Large shield +2 and have 15 health per level will be weak. Whatever the people are telling you in this thread, it's not true.
You make a convincing argument. What was your vote for toughest character to solo? Monk?
You make a convincing argument. What was your vote for toughest character to solo? Monk?
My original though was Kensai, but because of the amount of powerful potions you can find in BGEE i changed that.
My vote would be on the Monk, but even the monk isn't that hard if you play it well.
To be honest any class in BGEE can handle the game pretty easily when it comes to solo because you can drug your character with so many potions for the harder fights that it'll be a breeze.
If i had to pick one, it would be the monk, but a monk can still solo the game without much problem.
Either way there are only four of those in the game I think, so I'd probably save them for the main plot encounters (Mulahey, CloakwoodMines/Davaeorn, Iron Throne fight and final fight).
One dart of wounding will last long enough to interrupt the improved invisibility AND both charm spells. So if you manage to get a dart into all three of them, you won't have to face any spells.
They can as Blackraven mentioned use the green scrolls. And where in this thread did people say it was a no-reload? With Dwarven saves you should be able to get it on the first try if you play well, and at the most load once or twice if you play it badly.
And i didn't really mean early as in right out of candlekeep, get a few levels under your belt first. To me early was before the cloakwood mine.
I would use my scrolls of protection at the following fights -> Daveron (Cloakwood mine), Iron Throne top floor fight, The party under candlekeep catacombs (if you don't ignore them) and the last fight.
Although I understand only a minority of players play a no-reload game, I guess that the no-reload is the only way to value if something is hard or not. In other words, if you can reload, you can overcome ANY problem just by reloading 100+ times.
So, the fact that @Blackraven has used a no-reload reference is a good ways to understand if this or that class/kit is hard or not.
And when it comes to a run where a simple save/no save vs spell can determine your success, a Wizard Slayer is the weakest.
@Twani : "A wizard slayer cannot protect himself from magic. Sirines, Daveron, Samej, so on- if one of them casts charm, the game is over."
This. This so much. Add Horror, Hold person, Chaos or any other similar spell to that. And not only these bosses but just any other ordinary spellcaster in the game can be the last for your character.
There're potions in this game and also there's the Greenstone Amulet. These things help heavily in a solo run. Any weak character can use them - a monk, a kensai - but not a Wizard Slayer.
Playing solo as a Wizard Slayer, I must meta-game to the fullest. I must attack still neutral mages, before they go hostile and start casting spells. I must flee as far as I can when any spellcaster begins casting something that can be a save/no save spell. With anyone else, I just could gulp a potion, use the Amulet and it would be fine, I would be immune. But it's a very different story with a WIzard Slayer.
And you say darts.. Yeah, darts are basically the weapon of choice for a solo run through BG1. Their stunning and poisoning effects are often the only way to overcome an enemy. But what if your characted rolls a critical miss and you fail to interrupt a mage? What if a Wizard Slayer fails to hit an enemy and this enemy casts Stoneskin and then disables your character?
So, you very much rely on your metaknowledge, on your luck and on your own dexterity - you should not make a SINGLE mistake during all the game. While with any other class/kit you just could acquire an imminity and patiently let yourself a few misses.
This is all combined leads me to seriously think that A Wizard Slayer has no alternatives if it comes to the hardest character.
Until you get to Baldur's Gate you'll only end up needing two scrolls of protection from magic (Daveron, The group in front of the cloakwood mine). Both Mulahey and the mage in the Bandit tent won't be a problem, just get a few levels and you'll do fine.
Then you'll need two more (which you can get) for the fight on top of the Iron Throne and the last fight against Sarevok.
That's in a no-reload game.
I would have an easier time completing BGEE No-reload with a Wizard Slayer than a Kensai. None of them would be that complicated in the original BGEE without SCS, but it really isn't that hard to play a Wizard slayer.
Also pick up the sword in Cloakwood and you'll be immune to hold and slow spells, makes fighting divine casters much easier.
What i wrote about above (darts) was in a game where you can reload, in a no reload game darts are still powerful, but you'll have to make sure you're 100% safe.
It really isn't that complicated to play a Wizard Slayer.
And both the Kensai and Monk rely much more on metaknowledge because they need to know where to find their potions and when to use them and which to use for which fight. The Wizard Slayer only have to rely on the scrolls of protection from magic.
The most annoying problem the Wizard Slayer face is they can't get the strength tome, because they can't get their strength high enough to loot it.
[Edited] : And remember to pick up a green scroll of protection from petrification before you go to Candlekeep for the second time, or you'll most probably end up dying to the Basilisk in the cave.
Like @bengoshi, I'm inclined to fear there are more problematic encounters than the ones you mention. Let's take Mulahey: if you miss with you dart or Mulahey saves vs the stunning or poison effect, he's likely to hold and kill charname. The Sirines are too many to (three) to neutralize on time each one of them I think. Nimbul is someone you'll have to avoid (which I admit, can be done, but it's metagaming to the fullest). Pick up Spiders' Bane you say, but what if you don't know exactly where the web traps and the Spiders/Ettercaps ambushers are? Inside the Cloakwood Mines you'll have to get past Hareishan and her guards, which meansbeing quick enough to either deal with the four assassins outside the Mines, or rush through the Mines to make it to Davaeorn (this is doable, I just did this in an SCS game with my Undead Hunter).
2.) The Sirenes are an option, not a must. If you do want that tome you can sacrifice a scroll of protection from magic on it and then play safe against the party in cloakwood mine, in the original game it's easy to pull back the fighters and leave the mages until last. Even if they do land a fear on you, you'll have over 90 health points and will survive their spells.
3.) Nimbul does not have enough magic to actually kill your Wizard Slayer if you're sitting on a higher level, not to mention he has horrible armor class and can be taken down without problem.
4.) If i didn't know where exactly the traps are, i wouldn't be playing a solo no-reload game to start with.
5.) Haerishan and her guards aren't that hard, either take the secret entrance or get up your resistance for the trap, then pull her guards out and eventually you'll be there alone with her.
6.) When you fight mages like Haerishan and Nimbul when playing solo you're able to sit on the highest level. That's 120 health they have to get through, neither of those can actually kill you before the fear runs out. Even with a few guards hitting on you, you'll survive thanks to your great AC.
I wouldn't be having this discussion if i hadn't soloed a Wizard slayer through BGEE.
Most of the fights you have mentioned would also kill a monk or Kensai if they weren't prepared, take the web traps in cloak wood as an example, without a potion of freedom they would fail their run there.
There has been mentioned many times "Meta gaming!" but the fact is that out of the monk, kensai and Wizard Slayer, the Wizard Slayer is the one that has the least because they won't scavenge for certain items or potions, only a few scrolls.
In the original BGEE without SCS installed, fighters are kings, fighters with amazing stats are even better. So even a 'bad' kit like the Wizard Slayer will do fine.
[Edited] : And i apologize if i make it sound easy, but in my opinion BGEE is easy. It gets a bit more difficult when you add SCS but it's still not that hard.
Ahm... 120 health... and what if you don't take MAX HP rolls?
"without a potion of freedom they would fail their run there" - this is the main thing. A wizard slayer can't have this potion. So, even this particular area is harder for him than for the rest. We even can look at it this way: with a Wizard Slayer you have to meta-game much more than with everyone else. Not a little thing to take into account when you decide what run is the hardest.
Monks and kensais can get those protections in no time, so with due kiting none in BG1 would touch them. A Wizard Slayer doesn't have this possibility.
EDIT: with SCS installed you won't have enough potions of PfM, that's for sure. So, with SCS installed it's even out of question if the Wizard Slayer is the hardest.