I think a skilled high level Sorcerer could do it, but Beholders are so cheesy it's unfair.
Not only the one in the Twisted Rune, but in general, their anti-magic ray is so powerful I don't know a tactic to beat them reliably.
I mean they have pretty bad saves, HP and AC, so they are easely defeated BUT there is always a risk of dying, always. Random anti-magic ray + random stone to flesh ray and boum your no-reload run ended.
I think a skilled high level Sorcerer could do it, but Beholders are so cheesy it's unfair.
Not only the one in the Twisted Rune, but in general, their anti-magic ray is so powerful I don't know a tactic to beat them reliably.
I mean they have pretty bad saves, HP and AC, so they are easely defeated BUT there is always a risk of dying, always. Random anti-magic ray + random stone to flesh ray and boum your no-reload run ended.
There is no way a sorcerer would have known to pick spell shield (Wizard Level 5) to use against beholders. And he won't know to avoid the twisted runes until higher level. I really don't see any way for any class to survive the twisted rune in a no-reload no-metagame game.
I'm not sure. The Twisted Rune is a pretty hidden fight. I know I didn't fought it before the EE, and I was already picking Spell Shield a lot on my mages so I don't really know.
Maybe someone who don't find the Twisted Rune until much later into the game simply because he didn't discover it.
I think that Kangaxx is quite different. You know you are going to face an undead, and even if you don't know he is a demi-lich, you may know what a demi-lich is, so you can use some tactics with a sorcerer. First of all, if I were a Sorcerer, I would buy all the protection from undead scroll in the game (every temple sells a couple of that scroll). And every sorcerer should know spell immunity. So he may cast it if he knows something about a demi-lich.
The twisted rune is nearly impossible, I agree. You face too different types of enemies, and even if you have a contingency with spell immunity: divination, improved invisibility and spell shield (I would always choose this contingency if I'm blind of what I'm facing) you still have few chances to survive the cheese beholder anti-magic ray. But you may be lucky, and you can have the chance to cast all the time stop you can cast and figure out something to survive (you can kill the beholder, read a scroll of protection from the undead, call a planetar and buff yourself...)
No other class can get closer to survive the twisted rune.
And most important... Sorcerers don't need scrolls to learn high level spell. So, in a solo run, you can accidentally meet the twisted rune in chap 2, kowing all the best spells in the game.
You have no idea that Kangaxx will turn on you, you're doing a quest for someone in a tomb. Even if you had the slightest idea you wouldn't know that he would turn into a demi-lich and there is no way in hell you would know that he can only use Imprison (level 9 wizard spell). If you somehow figured this out and bought a scroll or protection from undead that still won't help you, because Kangaxx lich form won't be able to talk to you and then can't transform, unless they changed this in BG2EE.
"First of all, if I were a Sorcerer, I would buy all the protection from undead scroll in the game (every temple sells a couple of that scroll)."
Meta game knowledge.
"And every sorcerer should know spell immunity. So he may cast it if he knows something about a demi-lich."
How many people here that were new to the game and stuff knew which school to pick from when it came to this? You don't know Kangaxx will do Imprison and you most probably won't know what school to protect yourself from.
Meta game knowledge again.
It's fine in theory and all, but every single person here know the fights and most of the tactics wouldn't be realistic if you had no prior knowledge.
A sorcerer with no meta game knowledge won't pick many of the spells there, and they will not pick spell shield because they don't know it will protect from the anti magic ray and there are far better spells than spell shield out there to protect you from other stuff.
And to anyone saying the sorcerer would be the best choice, i'm completely clueless to why this would be. Low health, no way to protect yourself from traps, you only have a certain amount of spells to pick and when you have no meta game knowledge YOU WON'T KNOW WHAT SPELLS TO PICK.
Berserker -> Something, or something like a F/M/T or M/T i'll accept.
Sorcerer? No way in hell.
And let's not forget that the door to the Twisted rune is trapped with a flesh to stone spell, you wouldn't know this so you wouldn't have protection from petrification up running, and this in return would be your death.
You have no idea that Kangaxx will turn on you, you're doing a quest for someone in a tomb.
This someone you're talking about lives in a grave. I definitely wouldn't trust someone who lives in a grave. But I may want to try to see what happens if I help him.
Even if you had the slightest idea you wouldn't know that he would turn into a demi-lich and there is no way in hell you would know that he can only use Imprison (level 9 wizard spell).
Well, you are right, but in SCS he isn't using only imprisonement, and if you are invisible, he can't target you, so you still have a chance.
If you somehow figured this out and bought a scroll or protection from undead that still won't help you, because Kangaxx lich form won't be able to talk to you and then can't transform, unless they changed this in BG2EE.
But I'm not going to read the scroll before he turns on me. I'd just be prepared, and when I see a lich going hostile, I would use my contingency, and I'd read the scroll.
"First of all, if I were a Sorcerer, I would buy all the protection from undead scroll in the game (every temple sells a couple of that scroll)."
Meta game knowledge.
No, it's not. He is looking for adventure, he surely knows about monsters and undead, and he will buy anything that can help him, especially to cover his weakness (and he knows he isn't a cleric). It's not metagaming because he isn't using spells before knowing what he is facing, but he is prepared.... Long time ago I heard an english proverb, something like this: On a sunny day a fool man walks with an open umbrella, a wise man just carries it.
"And every sorcerer should know spell immunity. So he may cast it if he knows something about a demi-lich."
How many people here that were new to the game and stuff knew which school to pick from when it came to this? You don't know Kangaxx will do Imprison and you most probably won't know what school to protect yourself from.
Meta game knowledge again.
I see your point here, but I totally disagree. Not metagaming doesn't mean not knowing how magic works in AD&D. If not metagaming means first time ever playing a BG game, you don't need to wait for the twisted rune to die... With SCS I doubt a first time player with no reload could ever arrive to Nashkel (well, maybe he can make to Nashkel, but not to Baldur's Gate). I'm assuming a sorcerer who can reach high level, knows many things about magic, and can choose wisely wich spells he will learn. In a random spell choice (wich is surely a fun way to play BG series), there's no discussion about Twisted rune, Kangaxx or any lich. The OP says: "Mind you that to me no-metagaming means no prebuffing (except for long lasting spells such as Armor, Stoneskin, Iron Skins) unless enemies have been properly scouted." And I was referring to this no-metagaming mean.
A sorcerer with no meta game knowledge won't pick many of the spells there, and they will not pick spell shield because they don't know it will protect from the anti magic ray and there are far better spells than spell shield out there to protect you from other stuff.
I disagree. Spell shield is a must, even if you dont' know anything about beholder anti magic ray. It's the only spell that protects you from debuff spells. In my idea of no-metagame, spell shield is a must have!
And to anyone saying the sorcerer would be the best choice, i'm completely clueless to why this would be. Low health, no way to protect yourself from traps, you only have a certain amount of spells to pick and when you have no meta game knowledge YOU WON'T KNOW WHAT SPELLS TO PICK.
Again I disagree. A sorcerer doesn't know where traps are, but he should know that (especially in dungeons) it's full of traps. So I would never walk or open a container without a certain amount of protections (protections from the elements, protection from energy, and others like that). When I create a sorcerer, I know the game, but I'm not referring to every single fight. I just know wich spells are useful and wich spells are reduntant. I just choose spells that can cover almost anything.
And let's not forget that the door to the Twisted rune is trapped with a flesh to stone spell, you wouldn't know this so you wouldn't have protection from petrification up running, and this in return would be your death.
Ok, Here you are definitely right. I have completely forgotten about that trap. Is there a saving throw? I think so, because I did it with a solo sorcerer (metagaming of course), and I wasn't using any protection from petrification (I didn't even know, until now, what kind of trap was that one). So I think it's almost impossible to survive the twisted rune, but with some (really a lot of) luck you can survive.
Spell Immunity : Abjuration protects you from all dispels with the exception of Ruby Ray of Reversal. There is no need to use spell shield other than for fighting beholders.
There is nothing called "No-Reload No-Meta game knowledge" because it doesn't exist. All of your moves will be influenced by your knowledge, or you'll die on purpose.
Spell Immunity : Abjuration protects you from all dispels with the exception of Prismatic Spray. There is no need to use spell shield other than for fighting beholders.
Not according to my knowledge. "Spell Immunity protects against spells of a specific School. Immunity to Abjuration will protect against Dispel Magic and Remove Magic, but still not against spell protection removal, Breach or Lower Resistance. Spell Shield absorbs the next spell protection removal or Breach (regardless of whether that was actually needed)."
Knowing this, I would definitely pick spell shield, am I wrong?
There is nothing called "No-Reload No-Meta game knowledge" because it doesn't exist. All of your moves will be influenced by your knowledge, or you'll die on purpose.
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean. You can't play without metagaming except for your first ever play. So there should be no point in talking about no metagame playthrough. But that's not no-metagame, that's not knowing the rules of the game.
I can improve my skills in a chess game, even if I don't know your moves before you make them. In BG I know enemy moves, no-metagame should mean not using this information. It should not mean not learning how spells work and wich spells are more useful. But, as I told you earlier, this doesn't mean that a completely blind game is not fun. It surely is fun, but it's not easy for me to pretend I don't know anything about D&D. I can force myself to randomize the choice of spells, and if we are talking about this, it'd be okay. I would never made that question. As I told you the OP had a different meaning for no-metagame, and i was referring to that.
Spell Immunity : Abjuration protects you from all dispels with the exception of Prismatic Spray. There is no need to use spell shield other than for fighting beholders.
Not according to my knowledge. "Spell Immunity protects against spells of a specific School. Immunity to Abjuration will protect against Dispel Magic and Remove Magic, but still not against spell protection removal, Breach or Lower Resistance. Spell Shield absorbs the next spell protection removal or Breach (regardless of whether that was actually needed)."
Knowing this, I would definitely pick spell shield, am I wrong?
There is nothing called "No-Reload No-Meta game knowledge" because it doesn't exist. All of your moves will be influenced by your knowledge, or you'll die on purpose.
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean. You can't play without metagaming except for your first ever play. So there should be no point in talking about no metagame playthrough. But that's not no-metagame, that's not knowing the rules of the game.
I can improve my skills in a chess game, even if I don't know your moves before you make them. In BG I know enemy moves, no-metagame should mean not using this information. It should not mean not learning how spells work and wich spells are more useful. But, as I told you earlier, this doesn't mean that a completely blind game is not fun. It surely is fun, but it's not easy for me to pretend I don't know anything about D&D. I can force myself to randomize the choice of spells, and if we are talking about this, it'd be okay. I would never made that question. As I told you the OP had a different meaning for no-metagame, and i was referring to that.
It's my last posts because sometimes you just won't agree on something, and then i rather not sit here and fill out space in the thread.
So the Ruby Ray is the only spell that can remove your protection spells once you got Spell Immunity: Abjuration up. No need for spell shield at all, unless you're hunting Beholders and that's only because it's ability of protecting you against the Anti-Magic ray.
@SionIV: hey don't leave Your contributions are insightful. No-Reload No-meta knowledge doesn't exist, I agree. The knowledge is there. The secret is to take two things into account for pretty much every step you're contemplating for charname: 1) Is the action coloured by Player's metaknowledge of the game? If so, than the action cannot be performed unless there's a plausible in-game justification for the acion based on Charname's knowledge. Asking this question at all times may be difficult because Player might 'automatically' take a certain course of action, without thinking. 2) Is the course of action safe? If no, another action must be chosen to minimize risk.
I agree with @SionIV that Sorcerer is one of the characters that has to be metagamed a lot, first because spellpicks have to be planned a lot, and also because low hitpoints are very risky with traps.
and even if you have a contingency with spell immunity: divination, improved invisibility and spell shield (I would always choose this contingency if I'm blind of what I'm facing)
I liked this point, Charname would probably rely a lot on standard triggers/contingncies (that aren't tailored to the demands of a specific encounter) almost always blind of what he's facing, unless you scout and rest o prepare specific spells. This is only acceptable to me though if one rests in a safe place (or perhaps with Inivisibility cast before resting), and is the enemy is unlikely to detect you or to make a move. I might rest invisibly in the Baslisk area, but not in the Cloakwood Mines for example.
I'm becoming more and more convinced that for a solo no-reload, no-metagaming endeavour, F/M/T is probably going to be my best bet. (I think I'll play my Barbarian/Druid in the same way, but in a small party.)
If kitting the F/M/T is to be allowed, which kit would you assign? I'm thinking of a Gnome Fighter/Illusionist/Thief or one of the tall races as a Berserker/Mage/Thief. @Dragonspear would you consider adding a Thief kit? If so, which one?
It's my last posts because sometimes you just won't agree on something, and then i rather not sit here and fill out space in the thread.
I'm sorry if you feel this way. I just said: Spell Immunity protects against spells of a specific School. Immunity to Abjuration will protect against Dispel Magic and Remove Magic, but still not against spell protection removal, Breach or Lower Resistance. But maybe I'm wrong.
Anyway, I'm changing arguments. I think that a sorcerer is good when you can't metagame because he doesn't have to choose every morning wich spells he wants to cast the day after (and because he can cast more spells each day). A F/M/T will use juste the same 5-6 spells, because he doesn't know what he will face, and he will be forced to memorize everyday the same few spells that cover most of the situations. A sorcerer can do the same when picking spells on level up, but he will be able to pick more spells than a F/M/T can memorize. The only real problem for a sorcerer are indeed traps, that's why if I had to choose anything apart from a sorcerer I'd pick a F/M/T.
It's my last posts because sometimes you just won't agree on something, and then i rather not sit here and fill out space in the thread.
I'm sorry if you feel this way. I just said: Spell Immunity protects against spells of a specific School. Immunity to Abjuration will protect against Dispel Magic and Remove Magic, but still not against spell protection removal, Breach or Lower Resistance. But maybe I'm wrong.
Anyway, I'm changing arguments. I think that a sorcerer is good when you can't metagame because he doesn't have to choose every morning wich spells he wants to cast the day after (and because he can cast more spells each day). A F/M/T will use juste the same 5-6 spells, because he doesn't know what he will face, and he will be forced to memorize everyday the same few spells that cover most of the situations. A sorcerer can do the same when picking spells on level up, but he will be able to pick more spells than a F/M/T can memorize. The only real problem for a sorcerer are indeed traps, that's why if I had to choose anything apart from a sorcerer I'd pick a F/M/T.
Breach is also Abjuration, so is lower resistance. All the spells you have mentioned are Abjuration. And if you look at the list I've posted you can see the only spell that removes magical protection that isn't abjuration is Ruby Ray of Reversal.
Yes, they are all abiuration, but for reasons I don't know, spell immunity abiuration doesn't protect from them, or that's what i've always known. The only exception to this is breach with SCS installed.
And BTW I often have a rouge stone in my pocket, so without metagaming I would probably end up there sooner or later.
In what way is having a rouge stone in your pocket not meta-gaming? Something that valuable would certainly be better in a bank somewhere instead of where it can be easily pick-pocketed.
And BTW I often have a rouge stone in my pocket, so without metagaming I would probably end up there sooner or later.
In what way is having a rouge stone in your pocket not meta-gaming? Something that valuable would certainly be better in a bank somewhere instead of where it can be easily pick-pocketed.
In what way is having a rouge stone in your pocket not meta-gaming? Something that valuable would certainly be better in a bank somewhere instead of where it can be easily pick-pocketed.
Because I don't sell gems everyday, I keep them in the gem bag until I need money or until the bag is almost full.
I'll already post this in another post, but it is the ideal place to post it again :
"Spell Immunity Most enemy spellcasters use spells from too many different schools for this spell to be any good as a conventional spell protection, but it is incredibly powerful in specific instances. Especially solo mages can put its immunities to great use.
The spell offers the following choices:
Abjuration: Will protect you against Dispel Magic, Remove Magic and Imprisonment (including the demilich variant Trap the Soul). Will not protect you against Breach, Lower Resistance or any conventional spell protection removal (use Improved Invisibility for that).
Conjuration: Will protect against Melf's Acid Arrow, Flame Arrow, the Power Words, Maze, the Symbols and all of the nasty insect spells. Will not protect against summons in any way.
Divination: Protects your illusions from all illusion removal spells. Will prevent Projected Images from being killed by True Sight if they cast it themselves.
Enchantment: Will protect against some nasty level 1-5 spells, such as Dire Charm, Hold Person, and Feeblemind. Illusion: The only illusion that affects others is Blindness...
Evocation: Protects against every Evocation spell in the game (though only partially against Melf's Minute Meteors). While that may seem impressive, don't forget Mirror Image will probably protect you even better. This is the best protection against stationary area damage, though.
Necromancy: Protects against Skull Trap, Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting and a few spells too sad to mention. Since enemies cast these spells only very rarely, you're probably better off using Mirror Image, (Minor) Spell Turning and/or Improved Invisibility instead.
Alteration: Protects against a small number of save-or-else spells. Again, try (Minor) Spell Turning or Improved Invisibility instead.
In solo play, where enemy True Sight or Remove Magic triggers can wipe out all of your precious protections in one go, immunity to both Abjuration and Divination is essential."
Spell Immunity : Abjuration doesn't work against any spell removals, you MUST use Spell Shield for that. And I totally agree with @Pibaro about the out of Baldur's Gate knowledge.
I'll give you a very simple yet very explicative example.
I managed to kill Kangaxx on first try, without metagame knowledge, I didn't know who I was facing, and I did it. How ? I was playing a solo F/M/T, and of course I always had Spell Immunity scribed at least 2 or 3 times per day, because it is an awesome spell, no metagame at all for this, I simply read the description and understood the spell was too good.
And I played a lot of PnP D&D, especially the v.3.5 and I have the book for epic level characters, and the demiliches are here, and I knew about the Emprisonnement. So as soon as Kangaxx the Lich fell and became a Demilich, I simply put Spell Immunity : Abjuration instantly thanks to the Robe of Vecna.
True Story.
That's why I said in my earlier post that a skilled high level Sorcerer could do the Twisted Rune. I meant someone like a boss of AD&D who suddenly decided to try Baldur's Gate for the first time but already know perfectly how the magic system works.
And for traps, a Sorcerer can be immune to traps from level 6 (Mirror Image + Minor Spell Deflection/Minor Globe of Invulnerability) and it get better and better with time (With Stoneskin + Spelltrap, no traps can hurt you (no pun intended)), HP doesn't matter with traps.
@Blackraven Since your topic is about the "best" defensive character possible, I assume it is truly what you want and in that case, I wouldn't recommand to put a Mage kit on a F/M/T because putting any Thief or Fighter kit also gives you 1 more spell per day like a specialist and it doesn't lock a school. Berserker/Mage/Thief is good, but you could also play Fighter/Mage/Swashbuckler, Kensai/Mage/Thief or Fighter/Mage/Shadowdancer.
Disclaimer: I've of the opinion that FMT is fine by itself, without a kit.
If you pressed me, for RP reasons I'd do a bounty hunter, just because it could easily fit the overall theme of the kit. IF you ignore the flavor text on Wizard Slayer, I could sort of understand going that route as well, as Mages and Thieves both are great at combating casters as well.
I do not see berserker or kensai fitting. Assassin might work, especially if you're evil. I think a Swashbuckler is superfluous, as one of the draws of the FMT, is also being able to remove 1 target from the start of the fight with backstab. You already have fighter thac0 and specialization, and mage spells for defense.
If I was looking for a specialist mage, illusionist would fit well and I could sorta see enchanter working nicely. Alas I'm bias here and would likely go Invoker just because.
Final ruling:
No kit but if you're going to either: Fighter/Mage/Bounty Hunter, Fighter/Mage/Assassin or Wizard Slayer/Mage/Thief
@SionIV, @Pibaro, @Gotural, thanks for disccusing SI: Abjuration. I always thought (assumed) that it protected against Breach, Pierce Magic etc.
@Gotural, you make a good point about kitted mage multis getting the extra spell anyway. Adding another kit than a specialist mage would feel a bit cheatish though. The least I would do is self-impose a restricted spell school, to offset the advantage of an extra spell/level. @Dragonspear, since I'm looking for the strongest class defensively, I think Wizard Slayer/Mage/Thief is out of the question for me, as interesting as the class may be. Bounty Hunter does sound interesting, although 20 skill points per level hurts on a triple class (with the Assassin's 15 skill points it's even worse). I agree that both Berserker and Kensai are bit of a stretch. As to the former, I find it difficult to see Charname trained to be a battlerager. Same with Kensai, which imo is a profession that requires complete devotion (like Monk) and doesn't borrow itself well to multiclassing.
I'm going to decide between Barbarian/Mage/Thief (perhaps a Half-Orc, Barbarians unlike Berserkers aren't trained to enrage), Fighter/Mage/BH (likely an Elf or Half-Elf), and Gnome Fighter/Illusionist/Thief.
Because I don't sell gems everyday, I keep them in the gem bag until I need money or until the bag is almost full.
I just love punters...ahem... I mean "folks" like you.... Makes it easy for one stop shopping. Snip, snip and all of the valuables fall nicely into my pocket.
@SionIV I must be honest. I totally changed my mind. Driving back home I was metagaming in my mind a no-metagame no reload solo sorcerer run in bg2, and i have to admit that there's no way I could pass the "push the button" genie test at the very beginning of the game. I did it many times, I died many times there, and all the tacticts I have learned involve metagaming. There is no way I could beat that ogre-magi without picking some spells I would never pick without metagaming that encounter. His panic spell would kill me everytime. I shoul be evile to decide to not push the button, but i would never do an evil sorcerer run without metagaming. The only class that could survive that encounter without metagaming is a berserker (because with a berserker the first thing you do when you meet a dangerous enemy is to enter the rage), or maybe a barbarian. So the best class is a berserker dual to something.
From what I've heard, kitted thieves in a multiclass do not suffer the reduced thieving points per level
That's totally true. Kitted thieves get to keep the full backstab progression (for Shadowdancer and Swashbuckler for example), the 25 skill points per level (for Assassin, Bounty Hunter and Shadowdancer) and the traps (for Shadowdancer). They simply don't get the disadvantages of their respective kits. And that's what makes Fighter/Mage/Shadowdancer awesome, because as you can see they get to keep a lot of stuff.
@Blackraven I thought it would feel a bit cheatish for you and I agree with that, the self-impose restricted school would allow you to play a double kitted character, which could be nice and interesting !
The Wizard Slayer/Mage/Thief is alot better than you may think, once you get UAI, you will simply nullify every restrictions of the kit, which makes it quite good defensively with the added MR. You need to get throught BG1 though.
As for roleplaying, I don't really see a Berserker/Mage/Thief, or Barbarian/Mage/Thief as I consider that raging and casting arcane magic can't go together. But I really like the concept of a Kensai/Mage/Thief because I look at it that way : How is a vanilla Fighter/Mage/Thief more fitting ? "Hey guys, I'm a magician and a rogue, but also a warrior, but if I wear my armor to fight, I can't cast any spells or do anything thief related, see the synergy ?"
To me, the Kensai/Mage/Thief is simply a F/M/T who understood wearing an armor would simply slow him down, so he prefers to focus on his speed and martial abilities.
Spell Immunity : Abjuration protects you from all dispels with the exception of Ruby Ray of Reversal. There is no need to use spell shield other than for fighting beholders.
There is nothing called "No-Reload No-Meta game knowledge" because it doesn't exist. All of your moves will be influenced by your knowledge, or you'll die on purpose.
Some of the ideas here are just downright silly.
[Edited] Ruby Ray, not Prismatic.
Yeah, as someone myself who uses a roleplay-intensive style that seriously tries to step into the characters' shoes and behave only according the knowledge that we can be confident they have, or that we can reasonably surmise that they have (and when in doubt I flip a card for yes v. no), I don't see how on earth one could get very far in a no-reload/no-metagaming SCS playthrough. As Sion suggests, you don't really realize how much you use meta-game knowledge in your strategies until you try playing this way.
I mean, I've mentioned this already but I'll reemphasize it again: there's a price on your head that bounty hunters want, and you're regularly under assault including via ambushes right and left in this game. So it's clear that survival depends on being tremendously cautious--hypervigilant, actually. At least someone in your party is bound to be, even if your PC isn't. Someone in your party would surely speak up about the need to be as prepared as possible. You're gonna have someone scouting ahead and reconnoitering pretty much on general principles. And many would probably leave the party if you insist on repeatedly taking foolish risks, and behaving impulsively. Someone in the party with decent Int is probably going to start taking mental notes about what spells are being used by enemies, and so forth.
But in the heat of battle, the spellcasters in your party are concentrating on their own spells. There would be a kind of 'figure and ground' awareness, where the spellcaster is concentrating mainly on the spell being cast but also peripherally aware that a particular spell is being launched by the enemy. The game even uses incantations, so that also serves to educate the party about what tactics the enemy is using. But to be realistic about how much most individuals could split awareness during combat, you're only going to pick up so much of what the enemy is doing. It is a reasonable approach that as a standard precaution you're going to have some long-lasting pre-buffs (Armor, Strength, Stoneskin, etc.) and some Sequencers and Contingencies prepared. But otherwise you'll be reacting as best you can on-the-fly. (Potions and wands can make a big difference here, though--at least in BGEE.) And you're not going to know the spellcasting routine that Bassilus has up his sleeve, for example. Much less that Tarnesh is going to cast Sleep. Or that Nimbul is going to cast Horror, etc.
Heck, even playing this style in a vanilla game I play minimal reload (i.e., reload only in the event of PC death, technical glitch, or game engine limitation).
Just to throw an as yet unmentioned wrench into the thread...LOL ~Imho, solo playthroughs are in themselves a metagame challenge assuming metagame knowledge. Not a choice any *real* ADD denizen would make except in a fairly limited context or at a super-high level.
That being said, why not just create 2 Characters and make one a Barbarian/Mage/Cleric and the other a Gnome/Illusionist/Thief. Then you could also have the fun of writing out all kinds of witty dialogue scripts...like the competitive banter between Gimli and Legolas in LOTR.
And BTW I often have a rouge stone in my pocket, so without metagaming I would probably end up there sooner or later.
In what way is having a rouge stone in your pocket not meta-gaming? Something that valuable would certainly be better in a bank somewhere instead of where it can be easily pick-pocketed.
I always keep a stash of high value gem stones handy... Usually 3-5 of each of the most pricey types. For one thing, they can't be destroyed by a wild surge; and for another, they actually seem a more realistic way of transporting wealth than 100s of lbs of good coins.
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I really can't imagine how!
And BTW I often have a rouge stone in my pocket, so without metagaming I would probably end up there sooner or later.
High level lich, Vampire, Beholder, High level mage. That's not happening without prior knowledge of the fight.
It's the same way as without meta game knowledge no one would be able to kill Kangaxx.
Not only the one in the Twisted Rune, but in general, their anti-magic ray is so powerful I don't know a tactic to beat them reliably.
I mean they have pretty bad saves, HP and AC, so they are easely defeated BUT there is always a risk of dying, always. Random anti-magic ray + random stone to flesh ray and boum your no-reload run ended.
Maybe someone who don't find the Twisted Rune until much later into the game simply because he didn't discover it.
You know you are going to face an undead, and even if you don't know he is a demi-lich, you may know what a demi-lich is, so you can use some tactics with a sorcerer.
First of all, if I were a Sorcerer, I would buy all the protection from undead scroll in the game (every temple sells a couple of that scroll).
And every sorcerer should know spell immunity. So he may cast it if he knows something about a demi-lich.
The twisted rune is nearly impossible, I agree. You face too different types of enemies, and even if you have a contingency with spell immunity: divination, improved invisibility and spell shield (I would always choose this contingency if I'm blind of what I'm facing) you still have few chances to survive the cheese beholder anti-magic ray. But you may be lucky, and you can have the chance to cast all the time stop you can cast and figure out something to survive (you can kill the beholder, read a scroll of protection from the undead, call a planetar and buff yourself...)
No other class can get closer to survive the twisted rune.
"First of all, if I were a Sorcerer, I would buy all the protection from undead scroll in the game (every temple sells a couple of that scroll)."
Meta game knowledge.
"And every sorcerer should know spell immunity. So he may cast it if he knows something about a demi-lich."
How many people here that were new to the game and stuff knew which school to pick from when it came to this? You don't know Kangaxx will do Imprison and you most probably won't know what school to protect yourself from.
Meta game knowledge again.
It's fine in theory and all, but every single person here know the fights and most of the tactics wouldn't be realistic if you had no prior knowledge.
A sorcerer with no meta game knowledge won't pick many of the spells there, and they will not pick spell shield because they don't know it will protect from the anti magic ray and there are far better spells than spell shield out there to protect you from other stuff.
And to anyone saying the sorcerer would be the best choice, i'm completely clueless to why this would be. Low health, no way to protect yourself from traps, you only have a certain amount of spells to pick and when you have no meta game knowledge YOU WON'T KNOW WHAT SPELLS TO PICK.
Berserker -> Something, or something like a F/M/T or M/T i'll accept.
Sorcerer? No way in hell.
And let's not forget that the door to the Twisted rune is trapped with a flesh to stone spell, you wouldn't know this so you wouldn't have protection from petrification up running, and this in return would be your death.
I definitely wouldn't trust someone who lives in a grave. But I may want to try to see what happens if I help him.
Well, you are right, but in SCS he isn't using only imprisonement, and if you are invisible, he can't target you, so you still have a chance. But I'm not going to read the scroll before he turns on me. I'd just be prepared, and when I see a lich going hostile, I would use my contingency, and I'd read the scroll. No, it's not.
He is looking for adventure, he surely knows about monsters and undead, and he will buy anything that can help him, especially to cover his weakness (and he knows he isn't a cleric).
It's not metagaming because he isn't using spells before knowing what he is facing, but he is prepared....
Long time ago I heard an english proverb, something like this:
On a sunny day a fool man walks with an open umbrella, a wise man just carries it. I see your point here, but I totally disagree.
Not metagaming doesn't mean not knowing how magic works in AD&D.
If not metagaming means first time ever playing a BG game, you don't need to wait for the twisted rune to die... With SCS I doubt a first time player with no reload could ever arrive to Nashkel (well, maybe he can make to Nashkel, but not to Baldur's Gate).
I'm assuming a sorcerer who can reach high level, knows many things about magic, and can choose wisely wich spells he will learn.
In a random spell choice (wich is surely a fun way to play BG series), there's no discussion about Twisted rune, Kangaxx or any lich.
The OP says: "Mind you that to me no-metagaming means no prebuffing (except for long lasting spells such as Armor, Stoneskin, Iron Skins) unless enemies have been properly scouted." And I was referring to this no-metagaming mean. I disagree.
Spell shield is a must, even if you dont' know anything about beholder anti magic ray.
It's the only spell that protects you from debuff spells.
In my idea of no-metagame, spell shield is a must have! Again I disagree.
A sorcerer doesn't know where traps are, but he should know that (especially in dungeons) it's full of traps.
So I would never walk or open a container without a certain amount of protections (protections from the elements, protection from energy, and others like that).
When I create a sorcerer, I know the game, but I'm not referring to every single fight.
I just know wich spells are useful and wich spells are reduntant.
I just choose spells that can cover almost anything. Ok, Here you are definitely right.
I have completely forgotten about that trap.
Is there a saving throw?
I think so, because I did it with a solo sorcerer (metagaming of course), and I wasn't using any protection from petrification (I didn't even know, until now, what kind of trap was that one).
So I think it's almost impossible to survive the twisted rune, but with some (really a lot of) luck you can survive.
Spell Immunity : Abjuration protects you from all dispels with the exception of Ruby Ray of Reversal. There is no need to use spell shield other than for fighting beholders.
There is nothing called "No-Reload No-Meta game knowledge" because it doesn't exist. All of your moves will be influenced by your knowledge, or you'll die on purpose.
Some of the ideas here are just downright silly.
[Edited] Ruby Ray, not Prismatic.
"Spell Immunity protects against spells of a specific School. Immunity to Abjuration will protect against Dispel Magic and Remove Magic, but still not against spell protection removal, Breach or Lower Resistance.
Spell Shield absorbs the next spell protection removal or Breach (regardless of whether that was actually needed)."
Knowing this, I would definitely pick spell shield, am I wrong? Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.
You can't play without metagaming except for your first ever play.
So there should be no point in talking about no metagame playthrough.
But that's not no-metagame, that's not knowing the rules of the game.
I can improve my skills in a chess game, even if I don't know your moves before you make them.
In BG I know enemy moves, no-metagame should mean not using this information. It should not mean not learning how spells work and wich spells are more useful.
But, as I told you earlier, this doesn't mean that a completely blind game is not fun. It surely is fun, but it's not easy for me to pretend I don't know anything about D&D. I can force myself to randomize the choice of spells, and if we are talking about this, it'd be okay. I would never made that question.
As I told you the OP had a different meaning for no-metagame, and i was referring to that.
Spell Immunity : Abjuration.
Breach - Abjuration
Pierce Magic - Abjuration
Pierce Shield - Abjuration
Remove Magic - Abjuration
Dispel Magic - Abjuration
Spell Strike - Abjuration
Khelben's warding whip - Abjuration
Ruby Ray of Reversal - Alteration.
So the Ruby Ray is the only spell that can remove your protection spells once you got Spell Immunity: Abjuration up. No need for spell shield at all, unless you're hunting Beholders and that's only because it's ability of protecting you against the Anti-Magic ray.
No-Reload No-meta knowledge doesn't exist, I agree. The knowledge is there. The secret is to take two things into account for pretty much every step you're contemplating for charname:
1) Is the action coloured by Player's metaknowledge of the game? If so, than the action cannot be performed unless there's a plausible in-game justification for the acion based on Charname's knowledge.
Asking this question at all times may be difficult because Player might 'automatically' take a certain course of action, without thinking.
2) Is the course of action safe? If no, another action must be chosen to minimize risk.
I agree with @SionIV that Sorcerer is one of the characters that has to be metagamed a lot, first because spellpicks have to be planned a lot, and also because low hitpoints are very risky with traps.
@Pibaro: I liked this point, Charname would probably rely a lot on standard triggers/contingncies (that aren't tailored to the demands of a specific encounter) almost always blind of what he's facing, unless you scout and rest o prepare specific spells. This is only acceptable to me though if one rests in a safe place (or perhaps with Inivisibility cast before resting), and is the enemy is unlikely to detect you or to make a move. I might rest invisibly in the Baslisk area, but not in the Cloakwood Mines for example.
I'm becoming more and more convinced that for a solo no-reload, no-metagaming endeavour, F/M/T is probably going to be my best bet. (I think I'll play my Barbarian/Druid in the same way, but in a small party.)
If kitting the F/M/T is to be allowed, which kit would you assign? I'm thinking of a Gnome Fighter/Illusionist/Thief or one of the tall races as a Berserker/Mage/Thief. @Dragonspear would you consider adding a Thief kit? If so, which one?
I just said:
Spell Immunity protects against spells of a specific School. Immunity to Abjuration will protect against Dispel Magic and Remove Magic, but still not against spell protection removal, Breach or Lower Resistance.
But maybe I'm wrong.
Anyway, I'm changing arguments.
I think that a sorcerer is good when you can't metagame because he doesn't have to choose every morning wich spells he wants to cast the day after (and because he can cast more spells each day).
A F/M/T will use juste the same 5-6 spells, because he doesn't know what he will face, and he will be forced to memorize everyday the same few spells that cover most of the situations.
A sorcerer can do the same when picking spells on level up, but he will be able to pick more spells than a F/M/T can memorize.
The only real problem for a sorcerer are indeed traps, that's why if I had to choose anything apart from a sorcerer I'd pick a F/M/T.
Pierce Magic - Abjuration
Pierce Shield - Abjuration
Remove Magic - Abjuration
Dispel Magic - Abjuration
Spell Strike - Abjuration
Khelben's warding whip - Abjuration
Ruby Ray of Reversal - Alteration.
Breach is also Abjuration, so is lower resistance. All the spells you have mentioned are Abjuration. And if you look at the list I've posted you can see the only spell that removes magical protection that isn't abjuration is Ruby Ray of Reversal.
The only exception to this is breach with SCS installed.
"Spell Immunity
Most enemy spellcasters use spells from too many different schools for this spell to be any good as a conventional spell protection, but it is incredibly powerful in specific instances. Especially solo mages can put its immunities to great use.
The spell offers the following choices:
Abjuration: Will protect you against Dispel Magic, Remove Magic and Imprisonment (including the demilich variant Trap the Soul). Will not protect you against Breach, Lower Resistance or any conventional spell protection removal (use Improved Invisibility for that).
Conjuration: Will protect against Melf's Acid Arrow, Flame Arrow, the Power Words, Maze, the Symbols and all of the nasty insect spells. Will not protect against summons in any way.
Divination: Protects your illusions from all illusion removal spells. Will prevent Projected Images from being killed by True Sight if they cast it themselves.
Enchantment: Will protect against some nasty level 1-5 spells, such as Dire Charm, Hold Person, and Feeblemind.
Illusion: The only illusion that affects others is Blindness...
Evocation: Protects against every Evocation spell in the game (though only partially against Melf's Minute Meteors). While that may seem impressive, don't forget Mirror Image will probably protect you even better. This is the best protection against stationary area damage, though.
Necromancy: Protects against Skull Trap, Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting and a few spells too sad to mention. Since enemies cast these spells only very rarely, you're probably better off using Mirror Image, (Minor) Spell Turning and/or Improved Invisibility instead.
Alteration: Protects against a small number of save-or-else spells. Again, try (Minor) Spell Turning or Improved Invisibility instead.
In solo play, where enemy True Sight or Remove Magic triggers can wipe out all of your precious protections in one go, immunity to both Abjuration and Divination is essential."
Spell Immunity : Abjuration doesn't work against any spell removals, you MUST use Spell Shield for that. And I totally agree with @Pibaro about the out of Baldur's Gate knowledge.
I'll give you a very simple yet very explicative example.
I managed to kill Kangaxx on first try, without metagame knowledge, I didn't know who I was facing, and I did it. How ? I was playing a solo F/M/T, and of course I always had Spell Immunity scribed at least 2 or 3 times per day, because it is an awesome spell, no metagame at all for this, I simply read the description and understood the spell was too good.
And I played a lot of PnP D&D, especially the v.3.5 and I have the book for epic level characters, and the demiliches are here, and I knew about the Emprisonnement. So as soon as Kangaxx the Lich fell and became a Demilich, I simply put Spell Immunity : Abjuration instantly thanks to the Robe of Vecna.
True Story.
That's why I said in my earlier post that a skilled high level Sorcerer could do the Twisted Rune. I meant someone like a boss of AD&D who suddenly decided to try Baldur's Gate for the first time but already know perfectly how the magic system works.
And for traps, a Sorcerer can be immune to traps from level 6 (Mirror Image + Minor Spell Deflection/Minor Globe of Invulnerability) and it get better and better with time (With Stoneskin + Spelltrap, no traps can hurt you (no pun intended)), HP doesn't matter with traps.
@Blackraven Since your topic is about the "best" defensive character possible, I assume it is truly what you want and in that case, I wouldn't recommand to put a Mage kit on a F/M/T because putting any Thief or Fighter kit also gives you 1 more spell per day like a specialist and it doesn't lock a school. Berserker/Mage/Thief is good, but you could also play Fighter/Mage/Swashbuckler, Kensai/Mage/Thief or Fighter/Mage/Shadowdancer.
If you pressed me, for RP reasons I'd do a bounty hunter, just because it could easily fit the overall theme of the kit. IF you ignore the flavor text on Wizard Slayer, I could sort of understand going that route as well, as Mages and Thieves both are great at combating casters as well.
I do not see berserker or kensai fitting. Assassin might work, especially if you're evil. I think a Swashbuckler is superfluous, as one of the draws of the FMT, is also being able to remove 1 target from the start of the fight with backstab. You already have fighter thac0 and specialization, and mage spells for defense.
If I was looking for a specialist mage, illusionist would fit well and I could sorta see enchanter working nicely. Alas I'm bias here and would likely go Invoker just because.
Final ruling:
No kit but if you're going to either:
Fighter/Mage/Bounty Hunter, Fighter/Mage/Assassin or Wizard Slayer/Mage/Thief
@Gotural, you make a good point about kitted mage multis getting the extra spell anyway. Adding another kit than a specialist mage would feel a bit cheatish though. The least I would do is self-impose a restricted spell school, to offset the advantage of an extra spell/level.
@Dragonspear, since I'm looking for the strongest class defensively, I think Wizard Slayer/Mage/Thief is out of the question for me, as interesting as the class may be. Bounty Hunter does sound interesting, although 20 skill points per level hurts on a triple class (with the Assassin's 15 skill points it's even worse).
I agree that both Berserker and Kensai are bit of a stretch. As to the former, I find it difficult to see Charname trained to be a battlerager. Same with Kensai, which imo is a profession that requires complete devotion (like Monk) and doesn't borrow itself well to multiclassing.
I'm going to decide between Barbarian/Mage/Thief (perhaps a Half-Orc, Barbarians unlike Berserkers aren't trained to enrage), Fighter/Mage/BH (likely an Elf or Half-Elf), and Gnome Fighter/Illusionist/Thief.
From what I've heard, kitted thieves in a multiclass do not suffer the reduced thieving points per level
I must be honest.
I totally changed my mind.
Driving back home I was metagaming in my mind a no-metagame no reload solo sorcerer run in bg2, and i have to admit that there's no way I could pass the "push the button" genie test at the very beginning of the game.
I did it many times, I died many times there, and all the tacticts I have learned involve metagaming. There is no way I could beat that ogre-magi without picking some spells I would never pick without metagaming that encounter.
His panic spell would kill me everytime.
I shoul be evile to decide to not push the button, but i would never do an evil sorcerer run without metagaming.
The only class that could survive that encounter without metagaming is a berserker (because with a berserker the first thing you do when you meet a dangerous enemy is to enter the rage), or maybe a barbarian.
So the best class is a berserker dual to something.
@Blackraven I thought it would feel a bit cheatish for you and I agree with that, the self-impose restricted school would allow you to play a double kitted character, which could be nice and interesting !
The Wizard Slayer/Mage/Thief is alot better than you may think, once you get UAI, you will simply nullify every restrictions of the kit, which makes it quite good defensively with the added MR. You need to get throught BG1 though.
As for roleplaying, I don't really see a Berserker/Mage/Thief, or Barbarian/Mage/Thief as I consider that raging and casting arcane magic can't go together. But I really like the concept of a Kensai/Mage/Thief because I look at it that way : How is a vanilla Fighter/Mage/Thief more fitting ? "Hey guys, I'm a magician and a rogue, but also a warrior, but if I wear my armor to fight, I can't cast any spells or do anything thief related, see the synergy ?"
To me, the Kensai/Mage/Thief is simply a F/M/T who understood wearing an armor would simply slow him down, so he prefers to focus on his speed and martial abilities.
I mean, I've mentioned this already but I'll reemphasize it again: there's a price on your head that bounty hunters want, and you're regularly under assault including via ambushes right and left in this game. So it's clear that survival depends on being tremendously cautious--hypervigilant, actually. At least someone in your party is bound to be, even if your PC isn't. Someone in your party would surely speak up about the need to be as prepared as possible. You're gonna have someone scouting ahead and reconnoitering pretty much on general principles. And many would probably leave the party if you insist on repeatedly taking foolish risks, and behaving impulsively. Someone in the party with decent Int is probably going to start taking mental notes about what spells are being used by enemies, and so forth.
But in the heat of battle, the spellcasters in your party are concentrating on their own spells. There would be a kind of 'figure and ground' awareness, where the spellcaster is concentrating mainly on the spell being cast but also peripherally aware that a particular spell is being launched by the enemy. The game even uses incantations, so that also serves to educate the party about what tactics the enemy is using. But to be realistic about how much most individuals could split awareness during combat, you're only going to pick up so much of what the enemy is doing. It is a reasonable approach that as a standard precaution you're going to have some long-lasting pre-buffs (Armor, Strength, Stoneskin, etc.) and some Sequencers and Contingencies prepared. But otherwise you'll be reacting as best you can on-the-fly. (Potions and wands can make a big difference here, though--at least in BGEE.) And you're not going to know the spellcasting routine that Bassilus has up his sleeve, for example. Much less that Tarnesh is going to cast Sleep. Or that Nimbul is going to cast Horror, etc.
Heck, even playing this style in a vanilla game I play minimal reload (i.e., reload only in the event of PC death, technical glitch, or game engine limitation).
That being said, why not just create 2 Characters and make one a Barbarian/Mage/Cleric and the other a Gnome/Illusionist/Thief. Then you could also have the fun of writing out all kinds of witty dialogue scripts...like the competitive banter between Gimli and Legolas in LOTR.
For one thing, they can't be destroyed by a wild surge; and for another, they actually seem a more realistic way of transporting wealth than 100s of lbs of good coins.