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Remove tired status from Hindo's Doom Restoration

EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,244
We are not the one who casts a spell, so we should not be tired.

Comments

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Also, its not a great weapon. :p

    BUT WE WERE WARNED!
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    The caster is still you, you're just using the sword to do it.
  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,244
    Dee said:

    The caster is still you, you're just using the sword to do it.

    How can, for example Wizard Slayer, cast any spell?
    Energy comes from the sword, not from us.
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307
    Yup,
    Seconded.
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    I don't agree. A magical ability on an item is still invoked by the character.

    That's like saying that in PnP, when the Raise Dead spell is used, you lose some diamond dust/gold but if you cast it from a scroll it should be free. The scroll is casting it, not you.

    The item simply stores the spell, the character needs to invoke it and cast it to be used.
    Unless it's an intelligent weapon, you are casting the spell through the item.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    @Archaos‌ thats not an accurate statement. You arent using spell completion in this situation. The item's creation will have included all costs to use spells, ie you dont pay XP to use a ring of Wishes, the xp cost is converted to gold.

    The fatigue effect is a bit more gray, how do you pay that in advance for fatigue? Still, it PROBABLY shouldnt occur as per the rules, but the bigger fu is that this supposed to be the uber katana... and its really lackluster in many peoples eyes, so its more annoying than it would otherwise be.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Edvin said:

    Dee said:

    The caster is still you, you're just using the sword to do it.

    How can, for example Wizard Slayer, cast any spell?
    Energy comes from the sword, not from us.
    The energy for casting the spell comes from the sword, but the person wielding the sword is still the person activating it, and so the spell's side-effect affects the wielder.

    I guess you could make an argument that the spell should "fatigue" the sword by damaging it, but I suspect that would be even less appealing. ;)

    The spell Restoration fatigues the caster. That's part of the spell; the sword lets you cast the spell, but it doesn't protect you from the spell's effects.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    @Dee‌ if thats the case, wouldnt using each tome of stst boost cost you xp? They are a canned Wish spell.

    I think you might have a point that the XP is a cost, while fatigue could be argued to be a side effect. I have no 2nd ed phbook, so I cant check the wording.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    DreadKhan said:

    @Dee‌ if thats the case, wouldnt using each tome of stst boost cost you xp? They are a canned Wish spell.

    I think you might have a point that the XP is a cost, while fatigue could be argued to be a side effect. I have no 2nd ed phbook, so I cant check the wording.

    The tomes aren't Wish spells, though; they're items that increase a stat permanently. Hindo's Doom doesn't relieve ability damage and level drain; it lets the wielder cast Restoration.

    It's a bit of a semantic difference, but D&D is all about semantic differences. ;)
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    If you are the caster when it comes to casting from items then shouldn't casting from them be interruptable?
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    In fact it is. Most item spells have such a short casting time that it never comes up.
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    edited June 2014
    I'm not going to wade into the rules lawyer wankery*, but I will mention I'm far more annoyed that purchasing restoration at a temple fatigues the recipient instead of the priest you purchased it from.
    elminster said:

    If you are the caster when it comes to casting from items then shouldn't casting from them be interruptable?

    A lot of the items that cast stuff weren't handled consistently--power levels were all over the place, some cast instantly, none of them had schools/secondary types set, some just cloned the spell effects while others directly invoked the underlying spell, you name it. While we've tightened it up quite a bit, there's always room for improvement.

    That being said, I really don't see letting players avoid the ill effects of spells from items while enjoying all the benefits happening.

    * Yes, I'm aware 'rules lawyer wankery' is redundant.
  • CaloNordCaloNord Member Posts: 1,809
    Just a thought here, but isn't Hindo's Doom behaving exactly as it's meant to? You cast restoration using the item as a power source? So the fatigue is behaving as intended?

    Hahaha! @CamDawg‌ makes a good point. Why the hell am I getting fatigued? I didn't even do anything...
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    More than good enough explanation. Not that I'd be gaga over a Hindo's Doom even if it didnt fatigue... just find it lacks the sparkle* of many weapons in ToB.

    *sparkle of course meaning 'crazy effects and significant elemental damage'. It feels more like a late or difficult to find SOA weapon.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited July 2014
    Because the way Restoration works requires the caster to specifically put their hands on the target. The Spell would be channeled through the wielder into the target, and Restoration is such a powerful spell and it strains the person channeling the spells body, resulting in fatigue (Just be glad it doesn't age you 5 years per spell like the PnP version does in addition to preventing all spell-casting for 24 hours due to internal burn-out).

    Specifically, in 2nd edition there were no XP costs. You lost lifespan instead, and it did NOT occur until the spell was fully cast. Imbuing a scroll or item with that power didn't take it's toll on the caster until the time of actual casting, since prepping a scroll is more akin to memorizing a spell, just outside of your head and needing a costly/expensive base to set it to. At the end of the day, the person using the scroll still has to act as a conduit of that power to give it form.


    (Note worthy towards that area. Scrolls that cast spells higher then character using the scroll can cast (either because of low level or lacking the int required to cast a spell of a particular level) is supposed to require an intelligence check, with a penalty equal to the difference between the caster's highest castable level and the level of the spell on the scroll. So a 9th level mage (with 17 int, 5th lvl casting), using a 9th level spell from a scroll, would have to make an intelligence check (roll their intelligence score or less) with a +4 penalty or the spell would fizzle, since they lacked the knowledge and ability to control the release of the energies properly. And Divine Spells, even those cast from items, are supposed to suffer spell failure if the user has a Divine spell failure penalty due to low wisdom (12 or lower, starting at 5% and growing from there as it gets lower.) or the inability to cast 6th or 7th spells from items if they lack 17 or 18 wisdom respectively.)

    And it's not like this is IWD's fatigue penalty, that would wreck your $%#^. BG's fatigue penalty is so ridiculous you can simply ignore being fatigued without issue.
    Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,244

    Because the way Restoration works requires the caster to specifically put their hands on the target. The Spell would be channeled through the wielder into the target, and Restoration is such a powerful spell and it strains the person channeling the spells body, resulting in fatigue (Just be glad it doesn't age you 5 years per spell like the PnP version does in addition to preventing all spell-casting for 24 hours due to internal burn-out).

    That is a reasonable explanation, but how are you going to explain the casting Restoration in the temples.

    And it's not like this is IWD's fatigue penalty, that would wreck your $%#^. BG's fatigue penalty is so ridiculous you can simply ignore being fatigued without issue.

    But the ugly icon ruining my beautiful portrait! :-)
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    @ZanathKariashi‌ this is like how using haste effects age you in pnp? Well, kinda like it anyway, as the aging is to discourage abuse.

    I remember an IWD item lore about an adventurer that dies of old age in his 30s, having abused haste. :o
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    @‌Edvin

    And how do you know the priest isn't becoming fatigued???

    The temple's version though uses Greater restoration, which is so powerful, even the recipient is left drained, but fully healthy, by the effects.
  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,244
    edited July 2014

    @‌Edvin

    And how do you know the priest isn't becoming fatigued???

    The temple's version though uses Greater restoration, which is so powerful, even the recipient is left drained, but fully healthy, by the effects.

    If temple's version Greater restoration left drained caster AND recipient, then is less powerful, no more powerful.
    Moreover there is no evidence, for such an explanation. Rather, it is a bug in the script, which assigns spell to person who buys it.
    Post edited by Edvin on
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    in PnP, there is no Greater restoration, only Restoration. Technically the only difference between the two is that greater restores the whole party.
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680
    Well for scrolls, the DMG (in the magic item section on scrolls) states that :

    "Spell components are unnecessary for the scroll reader, and no adverse effects associated with casting the spell are suffered - these requirements or penalties have been fulfilled or suffered by the creator of the scroll".

    By default I would personally assume the same applies to items, although Hindo's Doom obviously isn't in the DMG so it's really up to the BG creators to decide how it works. Maybe it drains vitality from the wielder in order to provide the restoration effect.
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