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Removing Cleric Buffs

chickenhedchickenhed Member Posts: 208
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
So I've spent a lot of time understanding the nuances of arcane magic (especially for SCS) and the chess match involved in protecting and removing mage buffs. Then I thought of priests. In SCS (or even vanilla) are they completely screwed?

If I buff a cleric up with many of his protections, would a mage (especially a SCS one) just throw a dispel magic my way and remove all cleric buffs? If so, is there any way to protect them?

Lastly, is dispel/remove magic the only way to remove priest buffs?

Thanks in advance!

Comments

  • chickenhedchickenhed Member Posts: 208
    Wow. So priests really are completely done for against mages, scs or otherwise. So most priest buffs are considered "combat' protections in terms of what removes them? Death Ward, for example, would be considered a combat protection and thus be removed by breach?
  • chickenhedchickenhed Member Posts: 208
    Thank you for the help, Tresset. You mentioned buff spells like Champion's Strength are not removed by breach because they are not considered "protection" spells. That makes sense. However, it would be removed by a successful dispel/remove magic. Is that correct?
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  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    CrevsDaak said:

    chickenhed said:

    Thank you for the help, Tresset. You mentioned buff spells like Champion's Strength are not removed by breach because they are not considered "protection" spells. That makes sense. However, it would be removed by a successful dispel/remove magic. Is that correct?

    Yeah, Dispel Magic dispels... like... ALL THE THINGS*!!!!

    *If you succeed with it, of course :)
    Yea it'll remove Draw Upon Holy Might and Champion's Strength.

    But like Tresset mentioned it gets rid of most but not all spell protections. For instance Shield of the Archons doesn't actually protect against it (despite the description stating otherwise) but in my playtests for a bug report I noticed that while dispel magic would remove all the other protections I had active (even when Shield of Archons was activated) it wouldn't actually remove Shield of the Archons itself.
  • chickenhedchickenhed Member Posts: 208
    @Elminister‌ Thanks for the info on Shield of the Archons. @Sergio‌ , that is EXACTLY what I was getting at as well. What is the point of a priest in scs at all if mages can just wipe the floor with you? I know there are many other encounters in the game that they would be useful for, but I would hate for my protagonist to completely useless against the strongest type of enemy. That is when you want your bhaalspawn to shine!
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680
    Priest spells tend to be more focused towards healing and helping people whereas mage spells are much more combat oriented.

    So in a fight, the mage is definitely going to have the upper hand. But after the fight when your party needs healing/resurrection, the mage isn't much use.

    That said, priests get dispel magic too and the only defence against it is the mage spell immunity:abjuration (which admittely gets used by most mages in SCS).
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Resurection: There's a Rod for that
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    Mages can wipe out anything they feel like, not just clerics. I don't see the big deal.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Inquisitor wants to ask you about those buffs he disspelled, but he keeps hearing a gurgling noise... thst said, every other PC is gonna have to get lucky to win. Arcane casters are indecently overpowered in 2n ed.
  • chickenhedchickenhed Member Posts: 208
    DreadKhan said:

    Inquisitor wants to ask you about those buffs he disspelled, but he keeps hearing a gurgling noise... thst said, every other PC is gonna have to get lucky to win. Arcane casters are indecently overpowered in 2n ed.

    Fair enough, but even an un-nerfed (2x/level dispel) Inquisitor can't do a darn thing against an SCS Mage with SI: Abjuration.

    Either way, I see what you guys are getting at and I understand. I have NO issues with the raw powerhouse that is the Mage. He takes a while to get going, and even when he is higher level, he has "limited" spell casting per day. If we couldn't meta game or rest at any point, the power of the mage would be much more controlled. But because we encounter each mage (whether it's our own mage or an enemy) "at their best", as it were, then mage will always dominate.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Rod of Reversal, swat with Carsomyr until you can just cast dispel? Could work.

    In 3.x there are ways around magic defence, IE Justicar with anti-magic gauntlets shuts down a caster unless they disjunct generally. Shadowweave weirdness aside of course. 2nd ed really made mages powerhouses able to do anything without fear vs anything but another mage. Not that 3.x didnt have silly mage tricks too.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,410
    Well I wouldn't call 2E mages "powerhouses" so much. In PNP there was nothing quite like a balanced party. Its highly unlikely a high level mage will ever uber-buff like happens in BG. Although what often happens is the warriors jump right into action while the spell casters start getting ready. I can't even tell you how many times I've seen the balance go something like the first three or four rounds the warrior types are battling for dominance until the mages/clerics let loose and try to end it. Huge advantage to the side whose warriors did better, they will have an easier time containing the opposing mages. Although often, some of the warriors need to withdraw at this time to try and get healed so they can return. Its a very different balance and feel from either BG or IWD.
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