Give Dragon Disciples a strength bonus instead of a constitution bonus

elminster

@Madhax had proposed changes to the kit in a previous thread but its since been archived.

That out of the way here is my spiel.

Honestly the idea that they would get a constitution bonus instead of a strength bonus never made much sense to me. I'm sure it makes sense in 3rd edition but not 2nd edition.

For one thing in the case of sorcerers having above 16 constitution really only lets you drink more alcohol, avoid fatigue, and get a minor form of regeneration (1 hp/turn at 20 constitution and a bit better at higher levels). Since sorcerers already really have lot of leeway when it comes to their stat distribution (they don't need intelligence for anything related to their spells) getting 16 con even with a roll of 75 really isn't that difficult.

While a strength bonus itself wouldn't do much (given your limited APR) it would at least let you be a pack mule.

The main reason I suggest a strength bonus instead is because it doesn't make sense from a game lore standpoint given that you are supposed to be at least part dragon (from some distant past relative) and that as I understand it as you grow with level you are gradually unlocking more (or expanding on) power granted to you by your dragon heritage. The fact is that the majority of the dragons you fight in BG2 have 16 or less constitution but all of them have 25 strength.

Saladrex: 25 strength, 15 constitution
Abazigal: 25 strength, 22 constitution
Draconis (both in and outside dragon form): 25 strength, 16 constitution
Firkraag: 25 strength, 15 constitution
Thaxll'ssillyia (yea even I had to look up the spelling of the name): 25 strength, 15 constitution.
Nizidramanii'yt: 25 strength, 21 constitution.
Dolrassa: 25 strength, 15 constitution.
Ixthezzys: 25 strength, 15 constitution.
Adalon: 25 strength, 19 constitution.
Fll'Yissetat: 25 strength, 15 constitution. (same with the Watcher's Keep green dragon)

As you can see all of the red dragons you fight (which is really what the game implies is your heritage given that you have fire resistance and breathe fire) have 15 constitution (that includes the generic red dragon file that I didn't bring up here).

So basically I'm asking that you please change this to a strength bonus because it makes more sense.

CrevsDaak

elminster said:

While a strength bonus itself wouldn't do much (given your limited APR) it would at least let you be a pack mule.

Actually, just wait for the next patch, and up pick the Throwing Dagger: Firetooth+3 (even made of a ftooth of fire, hah!). You'll do CARNAGE with it and 25 STR (if you start with 16 you can reach 25), imagine... 2d4+3+14*2, and that if you _don't_ use Improved Haste, to bring to to 2d4+17*4 every round! And you don't even get close to your enemies! Also, imagine if you start with 18 STR in BG1... Not too much? Huh? Get throwing daggers, BG1 is a matter of damage, not APR, like ToB.

elminster

That is true actually. I hadn't thought of that. Though wouldn't you have Thac0 issues? (the best base Thac0 you'd get is 13 so you are far behind something like a fighter or even yourself using Energy Blades).

DreadKhan

Yes, you'd have THAC0 issues... but it'd be just fine vs mooks you'd rather not cast spells against. Obvious counterpoint is 'ever give that dagger to a Kensai?', which I find convincing. If only you could upgrade that daggee in ToB.

I like the idea of an str bonus, as cons is totally useless unless you deliberately take a lowish (12?) cons, no benefit. Str at least is handy.

ZanathKariashi

It's not a big deal either way. You can wear a strength belt and get similar results. And you can already naturally hit 23 str if you're evil, by the time ToB rolls around (assuming you started with 18).

Dazzu

If BG1 is damage > APR then why are darts better than slings and bows better than xbows?

elminster

Lets just stay on topic here

CaloNord

It makes sense to me. You won't get anything out of having a constitution above 16 anyway. However the strength is useful. Makes more sense that way to me! I'd rather give the belts to someone like Minsc then waste it on myself. I'd be fighting with my weapons on occasion but mostly being a magic user. However, the ability to lug more weight and beat the snot out things with my stick would be cool. I imagine when a 1/10th dragon hits you in the face with a stick you'd notice. . .

JuliusBorisov

Although I think that CON bonus for a DD is almost unimportant since the wizard should not be hit at all in the first place, STR bonus for a DD is too much.

A DD, being a sorcerer, already doesn't need INT so we can simply put maximum points into STR and DEX thus making him a character with excellent surviving and usability (carrying weight) stats. And if, as an addition, a DD gets innate bonuses to STR, it could become rediculous. Such high bonuses to damage and to hit would look strange on a wizard.

So, maybe a CON bonus for a DD is not the best variant, but it's still not so balance-harming as a STR bonus.

elminster

bengoshi said:

Although I think that CON bonus for a DD is almost unimportant since the wizard should not be hit at all in the first place, STR bonus for a DD is too much.

A DD, being a sorcerer, already doesn't need INT so we can simply put maximum points into STR and DEX thus making him a character with excellent surviving and usability (carrying weight) stats. And if, as an addition, a DD gets innate bonuses to STR, it could become rediculous. Such high bonuses to damage and to hit would look strange on a wizard.

So, maybe a CON bonus for a DD is not the best variant, but it's still not so balance-harming as a STR bonus.

A sorcerer can already start with 18 strength and get the strength tome, bringing them up to 19. The difference between 19 and 20 strength is minimal. Not to mention you can gain up to +3 to strength from Draw Upon Holy Might. So I really don't see how this is balance harming given what sorcerers can already get. At the end of the day you still are stuck with a mages Thac0, limited APR, and a rogues health.

DreadKhan

They arent going to be as good in melee as a cleric, the str bonus would still amount to mostly flavour. It might make up for the lost spells though as you could handle mooks without a spell.

ZanathKariashi

By the same logic, shouldn't all dragons have 10 str then? THe majority of them are potent spell-casters and as such they have zero reason to have 25 str.

And while I despise them using any 3rd edition based kits period, the Dragon Disicple IS a str heavy kit in it's source material...and requires a sorcerer or bard to even take, so...that argument honestly doesn't hold any water at all.

At best, you end up being a pack-mule. OR still end up dealing less non-magical damage then basically every other character can..except maybe druids......

shawne

Makes sense, though I think the bigger problem with the kit is the lopsided trade-off in spells. One use per day of the Breath Weapon just isn't worth losing a casting for every single spell level.

Archaos

@ZanathKariashi‌

Dragons have 25 STR because they are Dragons.
Dragon Disciple should get STR bonuses because:

1) They are descended from dragons, therefore, they get some of their physical strength.
2) CON increases are useless to a mage except to get regen.
3) Dragon Disciple is based on a 3E PrC, the PrC gives +8 STR, + 2 CON , +2 INT, +2 CHA.
4) STR is more favorable for mages because of carrying capacities and using darts/throwing daggers.
5) Yes you can use a belt for the same results but that is wasted on a Sorcerer. Free STR increases are not.

A Dragon Disciple is based on the spirit of the 3E Dragon Disciple PrC (or Half-Dragon template) and therefore it should be changed to STR so it's closer to it.

TRoar

Archaos said:

@ZanathKariashi‌

3) Dragon Disciple is based on a 3E PrC, the PrC gives +8 STR, + 2 CON , +2 INT, +2 CHA.

I like the idea of DD getting, for example, +2 to STR and +2 to CON, each point at different levels. Or something like that. I think focusing on one stat isn't the best idea, seeing as how dragons are kind of 'superior' to human/oids in a lot of ways, and also focusing on STR and CON is beneficial to a Sorcerer kit without being OP.

meagloth

CrevsDaak said:

elminster said:

While a strength bonus itself wouldn't do much (given your limited APR) it would at least let you be a pack mule.

Actually, just wait for the next patch, and up pick the Throwing Dagger: Firetooth+3 (even made of a ftooth of fire, hah!). You'll do CARNAGE with it and 25 STR (if you start with 16 you can reach 25), imagine... 2d4+3+14*2, and that if you _don't_ use Improved Haste, to bring to to 2d4+17*4 every round! And you don't even get close to your enemies! Also, imagine if you start with 18 STR in BG1... Not too much? Huh? Get throwing daggers, BG1 is a matter of damage, not APR, like ToB.

And that, my friends, is why there is no sorcerer dualclassing.