Discourage Save Scumming
GaelicVigil
Member Posts: 111
The biggest problem I have always had with the Baldur's Gate series is the way it encourages save scumming. There is a sense in this game that you need to win every battle perfectly, losing a single character, wasting too many resources (potions, etc), hitting a bad trap, or getting level drained. It is far too easy to just reload after something goes wrong after you *know* how to deal with the problem. This ties into rest scumming, but that's been covered already.
This is anathema to the concept of D&D. In table top gaming, you don't get to tell the DM that you want to do-over a trap or a battle if it went wrong, you learn to roll with it. You learn to experience failure which makes success all the more satisfying. Setbacks and even disaster actually make stories more interesting, they create true heroes.
To add insult to injury, these kind of save/load tactics break many aspects of the game. There is rarely a need to travel to a temple to revive characters, "chunk" death mechanics never happen, potions and healing items in the game (which have been limited to balance) are scarcely used, and rogue talents of trap finding are near-useless, and on and on.
Now, I know one of the first things I hear when this topic is brought up is, "well if you want to play without save scumming, you have the freedom to do that". That's absolutely true, but that doesn't mean this wasn't a poorly implemented feature and shouldn't be resolved somehow.
The easiest and simplest (though extreme) fix for this is to add a "hardcore" mode. No reloading except when starting the game. Period. This only requires a simple interface checkbox and a conditional statement (if death, delete save file and return to home menu), a disabled save menu play, and autosave on quit. As a professional developer myself, I know this would not involve a lot of coding to do.
I would personally be happy with that feature alone, but I know that may be a little harsh for some. Another idea that I thought of would be the option to only allow reloading when the main character dies. Obviously, there is still the possibility of save scumming by simply killing ones-self if a battle goes bad, however, I think the temptation becomes less strong.
I'll admit that when I normally play Baldur's Gate I save scum pretty often. The thing is, is that I honestly don't want to, but it's just too easy to do when you're stuck in some deep dungeon and it's that or trudging back to town. I feel the game is cheapened and the role-play is extinguished when the experience boils down to a series perfectly executed victories one after another. I've recently watched a very long series of Let's Play videos from someone who is very very good at avoiding the use of the load button.
While witnessing this style of game-play it has completely changed my view on the game. I've realized that triumph over struggle can be far more enjoyable than playing for perfection. I believe that the game was intended to be played with mistakes, and fixing this issue will bring us closer to the designers' original vision.
http://youtu.be/LZMBOhLRNwc
This is anathema to the concept of D&D. In table top gaming, you don't get to tell the DM that you want to do-over a trap or a battle if it went wrong, you learn to roll with it. You learn to experience failure which makes success all the more satisfying. Setbacks and even disaster actually make stories more interesting, they create true heroes.
To add insult to injury, these kind of save/load tactics break many aspects of the game. There is rarely a need to travel to a temple to revive characters, "chunk" death mechanics never happen, potions and healing items in the game (which have been limited to balance) are scarcely used, and rogue talents of trap finding are near-useless, and on and on.
Now, I know one of the first things I hear when this topic is brought up is, "well if you want to play without save scumming, you have the freedom to do that". That's absolutely true, but that doesn't mean this wasn't a poorly implemented feature and shouldn't be resolved somehow.
The easiest and simplest (though extreme) fix for this is to add a "hardcore" mode. No reloading except when starting the game. Period. This only requires a simple interface checkbox and a conditional statement (if death, delete save file and return to home menu), a disabled save menu play, and autosave on quit. As a professional developer myself, I know this would not involve a lot of coding to do.
I would personally be happy with that feature alone, but I know that may be a little harsh for some. Another idea that I thought of would be the option to only allow reloading when the main character dies. Obviously, there is still the possibility of save scumming by simply killing ones-self if a battle goes bad, however, I think the temptation becomes less strong.
I'll admit that when I normally play Baldur's Gate I save scum pretty often. The thing is, is that I honestly don't want to, but it's just too easy to do when you're stuck in some deep dungeon and it's that or trudging back to town. I feel the game is cheapened and the role-play is extinguished when the experience boils down to a series perfectly executed victories one after another. I've recently watched a very long series of Let's Play videos from someone who is very very good at avoiding the use of the load button.
While witnessing this style of game-play it has completely changed my view on the game. I've realized that triumph over struggle can be far more enjoyable than playing for perfection. I believe that the game was intended to be played with mistakes, and fixing this issue will bring us closer to the designers' original vision.
http://youtu.be/LZMBOhLRNwc 6
Comments
You're welcome.
That said, a mod would make things easier. You say that you are a professional developer - get involved in the modding community and make this happen! I would love to use a feature like that.
The possible way to do it, is to keep hardcore save files on the Beamdog's server, which is how "X3 Albion Prelude" handles hardcore mode, saves are on Steam. Reducing piracy at the same time.
But generally im not sure if you understand the consequences of these proposals. The reason people "save scum" is because they face game breaking situations. Like, mainchar died. The way to reduce reloading is not to chunk everyone to death, this will only increase reloading, but quite the opposite, allow the way out which does not involve reloading. In this case killing the mainchar puts him into death state and not main screen, which significantly reduces reloads, which is what BG2fixpack already does btw, and it is a very cool feature. The way to the Temple is too long compared to the amount of time characters face death out in the wilderness, implementing a, 3ed i believe, feature with the "-10" health system would reduce the number of irreparable deaths and increase the incentive to actually travel back to the Temple. In other words, situations must be reversibly solvable from within the game. This will reduce the number of reloads to zero.
For instance, how many UNAVOIDABLE traps are there in the Nashkel mine? 2, both are arrow traps on the bridge on the third level.
You might think TWO? No dude, they are FIVE!
Nope, they are two. The final three traps are TOTALLY avoidable if you take careful steps by the cave wall.
So what I would additionally propose, if that wouldn't be too much work - Random trap generation, random spellcaster behavior, random loot. Only THAT way even people that played the game ages now would have a hard time and a great challenge with such an option. Of course I am not suggesting a lightning bolt trap in Winthrop's inn, no. I am just suggesting that each location with traps should have, for instance, more, variable locations for said traps, making them a neat and deadly SURPRISE!
Is that acceptable?
Having a built-in get out of jail free card in the form of a save/load anywhere feature is like being able to turn the scoreboard off or reset it whenever you feel like it. It's not just using it that hurts the game, it's -having it there- in the first place that cheapens it. It's like the developers were saying, "look at all these great combat mechanics we have in the game, but you don't have to use them if you don't want, here's a nice load feature to skip all that". I'm sure that was not their intention, but it darn well seems like it sometimes.
A modder might be able to do this with the expanded modding tools in BGEE, but considering a hardcore mode is not that difficult, I didn't think it was asking too much for it to be in the game at launch. I have a busy life, sometimes I like paying for things rather than doing them myself.
I don't play the game often enough to remember every single danger (I haven't done every quest anyway), and even then, random encounters still throw a wrench into the equation.
I like the idea of only reloading when the mainchar dies even more than a total hardcore mode. It doesn't remove the ability to reload, but makes reloading far less tempting. Is it true that BG2fixpack does this as Roller12 claims? If so, then it seems that the code already exists and it could be reused in BGEE in much the same way as the widescreen mod.
Not sure where you started playing D&D but in the Pen and Paper world it was quite common for the DM to make a way to get dead companions back...It was never an intended goal of the game to universally enforce the loss of PC's
The thing is even though it may not take a lot of coding, it still sounds like a waste of coding when the solution should simply be to tell yourself "no, not this time". Exercising a little discipline to simply not save/reload isn't a mammoth task. It's not a 'poorly implemented feature' it's you not being bothered to follow through with what you want to do.
-----1110 Disable End On Player1 Dead [T]
Disables the ending cutscene when the protagonist dies
I mean.. sometimes I dislike long walking stretches, and how everyone in your party has to find their way up a narrow staircase until you can exit to the next screen, and this leads to pathfinding issue and half the party walking off in the opposite direction, etc - it would be so much smoother to just Ctrl+J my party to the exit spot. But I don't want to do that, so I don't use Ctrl+J. And if I did use Ctrl+J, it would be because I wanted to use it.
And how easy it is to do shouldn't matter. As a player of BG, you have a whole lot of tools of varying complexity - from the quicksave key to certain very powerful/abusable ingame items, to editors that let you select your stats or customize items and abilities, to metagame knowledge - and the way I see it it's up to you to pick and choose from all these tools and how you use them to tailor an experience that matches what you want out of the game.
A simpler idea might be for the game to keep track of how many times you died/saved/reloaded and tell you the numbers at the end of the game, like Link to the Past did. If you manage to beat the game under your own self-imposed handicap you'll have the proof that you did it.
Considering all of these games have this feature, I don't think it's too much to ask for something similar to be a part of Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition. You don't like it, fine, don't use it. But don't act like this is some sort ridiculous request when many modern games are putting it into their games. There is obviously a substantial customer base who like this feature as these developers are spending money and effort to implement it.
What makes your request ridiculous is that it's easily rectified by playing the way you want to play (even more so with the logwinded OP banging on about the glory days of Pen and Paper and bemoaning the game for being too convenient for you).
If you want to stop abusing the save/reload feature, then do so. However if you want to come up with a more viable 'hardcore mode' with features that would make it worthwhile then I think you will find other people more willing to entertain the idea.
Ok, I'll say it very. What you ask for is needless. Especially in light of the fact that the only feature you ask for is easily rectified by exercising a little discipline.
You bang on about games like Dark Souls and playing games for the challenge and the satisfaction of completing them, but you ask for artificial restrictions so you are made to play the way you would like to play, but admit that if there's an easy option you'll take it. That makes you a hypocrite.
Essentially you're just cheating yourself at that point asking for an artificial restriction like that. Plenty of gamers can play games like that without the need to be forced to do so. If you want to be that type of gamer, then play games that way. If you have to ask for restrictions to be able to play like that then arguably that is not your play style, but just the way you wish you could play.
When the game serves up the ability to save scum on a silver platter, that method of playing is the focus. If I want to play without reloading, I have to go around the system in place to do so.
You see, I can also use my "willpower" to pretend that Minsc is Micky Mouse and Sarevok is Donald Duck too. But is it easier imagine that, than to see what it actually, in reality, is? Of course not. Baldur's Gate is a game that literally caters to save scumming each and every encounter situation. Telling me I "lack the willpower" and I am not allowed to request a different approach, one that would accomodate a different playstyle, seems just a little selfish.
I see requests on this board for crazy new races, journal bestiaries, dragons, achievement systems, pvp deathmatch arenas, and other things that are pretty respected. But, a hardcore mode? "Oh, gosh no, we can't have that kind of crazy shit in Baldur's Gate even if it has been done in other games. Grow a pair and learn to restrain yourself". Really? That's the answer?
I don't get your pissy attitude over this. I'm not asking Overhaul to disband the current save mechanic that you like, I'm asking for an alternate mechanic that I like. Good grief, you act like someone killed your cat. The real hypocrite is accusing someone of having no willpower, when they, themselves, haven't the willpower to tolerate someone else's proposal without insulting them.
Your posts from the beginning have been little more than excuses for why you need that feature to play a certain way. Even go as far to call the game cheap because the feature exists in the first place. Thing is it works fine enough for those who want to use it. Despite your many claims to the opposite, there is nothing stopping you from simply not reloading a save when you feel the need if you're trying to play that way. Calling it 'the focus of the game' doesn't make it so when you are perfectly free to not use it.
Also nowhere did I say you weren't allowed to request it, I just said you were being silly. Now while I didn't say "grow a pair" (again, you're just being childish), I did say "restrain yourself" (well, words to that effect). I'm not trying to be mean to you, but you are making it hard. The only problem you have here is yourself. You can't take criticism and you can't admit that the problem essentially lies with you.
And just to be clear. I'm not returning to this conversation. I've think I've explained myself enough to you.
Perhaps you misread, but I never implied that this would be a forced change that everyone would be required to use. Read my original post, I offered two solutions, a "hardcore mode" and "the option to only allow reloading when the main character dies.". Notice the word "OPTION". LOL, wtf do you think we've been talking about for the last dozen posts? I think you're simply moving the goal posts at this point. No, considering you're the one bowing out of this conversation, I think it's you who can't take criticism.
No the people who play hard core CHOOSE to play hard core....but your request is like YOU making others choose hardcore as well... it is completely different.