IMO I think that it could work easier than said: saving game should force quit the game ( as seen in "the witcher 2") that way you have the "save scumming " disabled but you're not force to live in front of your screen until you finished the game (which certainly leads to IRL death with a game like BG, or at least IRL power consumption when you computer works out when you are sleeping/eating/fu... hum nevermind)
Concerning the fabulous "WTF OMG NOOB I AM RIGHT !!!!!!" - part of this thread, i think that @Redguard just wants you to admit you haven't got the strenght of will it requires for avoiding save scumming and that you, @GaelicVigil , just wants him to admit you can ask for such a feature even if @Redguard have idea for other functionnality in an hardcore mode.
BTW sorry for the english as i'm not a native speaker and note that i don't wanna seem insulting in any way
Honestly, I'm not sure why this conversation needed to deteriorate into name calling and insulting. I may be a bit late, but I'd like to throw in my 2 cents.
I also would like to see a hardcore no reload type option. Along with that though, I'd like to see PC death not be the "end all". I can haul my companions to the temple and raise them, why can't they do the same for me? Yeah, you stop plot progression, that's fine, just make it so certain dialogues and transitions can't happen if the main PC is dead.
In an effort to steer this thread from an argument into a discussion on what a hardcore mode could include, I'll start off with what I'd like to maybe see in such a mode:
- No reload. On a total party wipe, THE END. (sure there may be ways around this like backing up save files, but that's outside of the game mechanic) - A dead body is *a dead body*. If you want to raise your companions or PC, someone has to haul the corpse to the temple. - Main PC death does not end the game. If the main PC dies and at least one party member survives, they can drag the body back and raise him/her. The main plot would not be able to progress, but surviving party members would still be able to do some things in order to scrounge up the gold for a raise. - Make death hurt. I'm not overly familiar with 2nd Edition death rules, but maybe implementing those and making the raise dead cost more or increase the cost each time you raise, etc. Something to feel the sting and give you motivation to be cautious.
I'm sure there's other features that would add to the hardcore playing experience. I don't think asking for a hardcore option is unreasonable, some would choose to ignore it and for others it might increase the the enjoyment they get from beating the game. It might not be something that could be done by launch, but maybe something to look at for future content (free or paid depending on the level of effort, etc.).
So let's discuss, what would you like to see in a hardcore mode?
IMost of your ideas makes sense to me @SirK8, but there is still something i do not understand:
Why do you want to make PC death to not end the game ?
I mean, i can understand that it is very frustrating as it is because NPC can be revived in temple but we're talking of an "hardcore mode", "PC death end the game = Hardcore" <=> "PC death minus your stats or whatever = softcore". To put it in a nutshell, why would you want to transform what seems to be an hardcore feature into something easier for an hardcore mode ? I must admit i don't see any logic here ^^.
I also have to say, PC is a BaahlSpawn, if death of a BaalhSpawn isn't something ineluctable, it certainly enters in conflict with the plot, which goals is to make BaahlSpawn kills each other in order to unleash the power of the Lord of the Murder IMO.
@th3rulXT - sorry, I'm a bit hazy on the lore behind Bhaalspawn. It's also been a very long time since I've played this game (playing through now due to renewed interest). If the death of a Bhaalspawn is final according to lore, then I'll accept that. The reason for the request, was that currently that's the only reason I reload the game, I'm trying to accept all other choices/consequences, but since my PC death ends it for me (with no option of finishing the fight and raise), I do reload if my main PC dies.
I don't necessarily see this as a conflict with a hardcore mode, since a raise dead mechanic exists in the D&D rules and the game itself. However if lore says otherwise due to the PC's Bhaalspawn status, I'll concede that.
Edit:
It turns out Imoen is also Bhaalspawn, can she not be raised if she dies?
Concerning the little thief girl, i do not know if her status was clearly defined during the dev of BG1. I think it has been decided during the dev of BG2 and that some logical explanation of why it's possible to raise dead her have been spoken out after she has been rescued from Irenicus. Unless I just remember some forum thread talking giving that explanation. I will edit my post if i recall something more on this.
Yes, I admitted in the OP that I didn't have the willpower to never hit the load button when things went bad. That's why I want an option to remove that temptation in the game. I don't think I'm alone in this, nor believe it's helpful to belittle people who want that, as demonstrated in many other video games that have such a feature.
Some great ideas there. I too would like to see an option put into the game that wasn't AS hardcore as no reloading at all after PC death. I think the idea of allowing you to resurrect the mainchar is great, but I think it would open a whole can of worms since you would then have to modify every subsystem and quest in the game that requires the mainchar, to stop temporarily. That just seems like too much work for the dev team.
I still feel the best option is to allow people to check a box that would allow loading: 1. After mainchar death and, 2. To start the game. When you quit the game, a solitary save game slot would be created automatically overwriting any other saves on the current playthrough. Don't know how hard that would be to implement, but I think it would provide the best of both worlds.
@GaelicVigil - yeah, I can see the dev problems with PC raise... and even more concerning the Lore reasons why... so I'd give that up. As for the other options. I think a checkbox for each one would be great. A way to scale your "hardcore" experience.
In an effort to steer this thread from an argument into a discussion on what a hardcore mode could include, I'll start off with what I'd like to maybe see in such a mode:
- No reload. On a total party wipe, THE END. (sure there may be ways around this like backing up save files, but that's outside of the game mechanic) - A dead body is *a dead body*. If you want to raise your companions or PC, someone has to haul the corpse to the temple. - Main PC death does not end the game. If the main PC dies and at least one party member survives, they can drag the body back and raise him/her. The main plot would not be able to progress, but surviving party members would still be able to do some things in order to scrounge up the gold for a raise. - Make death hurt. I'm not overly familiar with 2nd Edition death rules, but maybe implementing those and making the raise dead cost more or increase the cost each time you raise, etc. Something to feel the sting and give you motivation to be cautious.
Stuff that might be suitable to add:
- Players need to eat/drink regularly to avoid getting hungry/thirsty and get penalties. Thus you have to carry provisions with you, and provisions have weight.
- No more quick travel. If you want to go from Baldur's Gate to Nashkel you have to manually cross every wilderness area in between them, and will have to stop to make camp/rest/eat every now and then.
- Shields, metal armours and helmets also being affected by the iron shortage and possibly breaking when you take damage (there is currently a mod that adds this).
- Mages copying spells from scrolls to their spellbooks only doable when you rest.
I personally would not change anything. The system is just not suitable for a no reload play, due to so much randomness involved.
The "series of perfect victories" exists only from a game perspective, not a players. You had to fail and retry to overcome an encounter. Even with a no reload policy, when things go bad you'd run away and have another crack at it after resting, would you not? I'm also assuming most people who would play such a game already have already completed the whole saga, perhaps multiple times. Perhaps without wanting, on a subconscious level you already know what most encounters entail and would prepare accordingly (or gimp accordingly). And is there really a big difference in replaying a small part and replaying a large part of the game due to death?
Well, perhaps I do understand what you're trying to achieve with this, but I believe you'd be better served by trying a different approach. I'm basing this on myself, so it might not apply, but still. When do I suck up a death or two and continue playing with resurrection/replacement party members? When I'm too lazy to replay a particularly long and arduous fight or section of the game. So perhaps something like locking game loading to only auto-saves would work well enough (maybe allowing manual saves to work if PC dies)?
Still I overall see little gain in such an endeavor. The wander and fear of what lies beyond the fog of war from a first play won't come back. Well, except the new content and maybe some mods .
Only time I really reloaded in a game was during BG2 when a character I was romancing died and I lost the romance questline. Other then that didn't really save-reload a lot though did get frustrating when a character was killed by critical hit and you could not resurrect them
I mean they make fun of reloading in ToB. I've done a playthrough of BG2 without reloading and leaving NPCs who died laying out in a field somwehere. It certainly alters how you play the game - but with a limited amount of coders and time I would not make this option a priority based on the input from other users in this thread (you can already just play the way you want, a hardcore mode should have more than just limiting saving, etc).
Comments
Concerning the fabulous "WTF OMG NOOB I AM RIGHT !!!!!!" - part of this thread, i think that @Redguard just wants you to admit you haven't got the strenght of will it requires for avoiding save scumming and that you, @GaelicVigil , just wants him to admit you can ask for such a feature even if @Redguard have idea for other functionnality in an hardcore mode.
BTW sorry for the english as i'm not a native speaker and note that i don't wanna seem insulting in any way
I also would like to see a hardcore no reload type option. Along with that though, I'd like to see PC death not be the "end all". I can haul my companions to the temple and raise them, why can't they do the same for me? Yeah, you stop plot progression, that's fine, just make it so certain dialogues and transitions can't happen if the main PC is dead.
In an effort to steer this thread from an argument into a discussion on what a hardcore mode could include, I'll start off with what I'd like to maybe see in such a mode:
- No reload. On a total party wipe, THE END. (sure there may be ways around this like backing up save files, but that's outside of the game mechanic)
- A dead body is *a dead body*. If you want to raise your companions or PC, someone has to haul the corpse to the temple.
- Main PC death does not end the game. If the main PC dies and at least one party member survives, they can drag the body back and raise him/her. The main plot would not be able to progress, but surviving party members would still be able to do some things in order to scrounge up the gold for a raise.
- Make death hurt. I'm not overly familiar with 2nd Edition death rules, but maybe implementing those and making the raise dead cost more or increase the cost each time you raise, etc. Something to feel the sting and give you motivation to be cautious.
I'm sure there's other features that would add to the hardcore playing experience. I don't think asking for a hardcore option is unreasonable, some would choose to ignore it and for others it might increase the the enjoyment they get from beating the game. It might not be something that could be done by launch, but maybe something to look at for future content (free or paid depending on the level of effort, etc.).
So let's discuss, what would you like to see in a hardcore mode?
Why do you want to make PC death to not end the game ?
I mean, i can understand that it is very frustrating as it is because NPC can be revived in temple but we're talking of an "hardcore mode", "PC death end the game = Hardcore" <=> "PC death minus your stats or whatever = softcore". To put it in a nutshell, why would you want to transform what seems to be an hardcore feature into something easier for an hardcore mode ? I must admit i don't see any logic here ^^.
I also have to say, PC is a BaahlSpawn, if death of a BaalhSpawn isn't something ineluctable, it certainly enters in conflict with the plot, which goals is to make BaahlSpawn kills each other in order to unleash the power of the Lord of the Murder IMO.
I don't necessarily see this as a conflict with a hardcore mode, since a raise dead mechanic exists in the D&D rules and the game itself. However if lore says otherwise due to the PC's Bhaalspawn status, I'll concede that.
Edit:
Yes, I admitted in the OP that I didn't have the willpower to never hit the load button when things went bad. That's why I want an option to remove that temptation in the game. I don't think I'm alone in this, nor believe it's helpful to belittle people who want that, as demonstrated in many other video games that have such a feature.
@SirK8
Some great ideas there. I too would like to see an option put into the game that wasn't AS hardcore as no reloading at all after PC death. I think the idea of allowing you to resurrect the mainchar is great, but I think it would open a whole can of worms since you would then have to modify every subsystem and quest in the game that requires the mainchar, to stop temporarily. That just seems like too much work for the dev team.
I still feel the best option is to allow people to check a box that would allow loading: 1. After mainchar death and, 2. To start the game. When you quit the game, a solitary save game slot would be created automatically overwriting any other saves on the current playthrough. Don't know how hard that would be to implement, but I think it would provide the best of both worlds.
- Players need to eat/drink regularly to avoid getting hungry/thirsty and get penalties. Thus you have to carry provisions with you, and provisions have weight.
- No more quick travel. If you want to go from Baldur's Gate to Nashkel you have to manually cross every wilderness area in between them, and will have to stop to make camp/rest/eat every now and then.
- Shields, metal armours and helmets also being affected by the iron shortage and possibly breaking when you take damage (there is currently a mod that adds this).
- Mages copying spells from scrolls to their spellbooks only doable when you rest.
The "series of perfect victories" exists only from a game perspective, not a players. You had to fail and retry to overcome an encounter. Even with a no reload policy, when things go bad you'd run away and have another crack at it after resting, would you not? I'm also assuming most people who would play such a game already have already completed the whole saga, perhaps multiple times. Perhaps without wanting, on a subconscious level you already know what most encounters entail and would prepare accordingly (or gimp accordingly). And is there really a big difference in replaying a small part and replaying a large part of the game due to death?
Well, perhaps I do understand what you're trying to achieve with this, but I believe you'd be better served by trying a different approach. I'm basing this on myself, so it might not apply, but still. When do I suck up a death or two and continue playing with resurrection/replacement party members? When I'm too lazy to replay a particularly long and arduous fight or section of the game. So perhaps something like locking game loading to only auto-saves would work well enough (maybe allowing manual saves to work if PC dies)?
Still I overall see little gain in such an endeavor. The wander and fear of what lies beyond the fog of war from a first play won't come back. Well, except the new content and maybe some mods