Better encounters/game play for Evil players.

CaloNord

I was inspired by the encounter towards the end of Rogue Rebalance with the Chosen of Cyric. That was one of the best executed and most beautiful encounters I've seen. What I would like is something for the vanilla game that is a bit more thought out for evil characters then just waves of idiotic Flaming Fist or Amnian guards and Cowled Wizards.

Perhaps an encounter or two with some powerful goodly aligned adventurers?
Or let us have a crack at Elminster. . . .

I'm not sure, just something a little more challenging and better thought out then idiot guards and their dorky mage back up.

This all also links in with changes I would love to see in the reputation system, the way it works and the way it affects game play and some added DEPTH for people who choose to play the game evil! Not stupid KILL THE PEASANTS evil either. A more intelligent manipulative evil. The options just aren't there to play evil in a logical fun way. At least not for me.

Your thoughts? Opinions? Ideas?

I don't want to take this to the Feature Request thread just yet, as I'm not exactly sure WHAT I want it changed to, but I would love to see what you guys and girls think.

Cheers.

[Deleted User]

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deltago

There are some encounters in the game, beside the flaming fist brigades, that will appear only when you have a low reputation.

CaloNord

@Sergio‌ I had a play with that mod years ago, it wasn't to bad actually. Don't know it works properly with EE though.

@deltago‌ Yea, but they weren't anymore difficult really. After you killed the couple of named morons no one came after you again? Police just gave up? 'Look there goes that wanted mass murderer that killed all the cops in NYC but let's not do anything about it. . . ' ?

Catoblepas

More options for evil characters is always welcome. After playing rpg after rpg I have started to notice a pattern as far as evil campaigns goes:

Evil options are less rewarding, evil quests are usually less developed, the main quest is invariably written with good PC's in mind, there are less evil party members than good party members, romances with evil characters will often include some sort of 'redemption' option while the reverse is rarely true, and evil characters will often end up in situations where they have to kill their good aligned party members (while evil party members are oddly loyal) and 'evil' endings are almost never considered canon in regards to sequels or tie-ins.

In regards to BG, I felt that it was pretty good-BG II on the other hand...right from the start they saddle you with a harper and minsc. Most of the evil characters from the first game either don't appear, or get killed off, with little in the way of replacements. The inability to make a full evil party is rather glaring IMO. So much that I have taken to making custom party members using the multiplayer trick in order to have a full party. The reputation system is another mechanic that seems designed to screw with evil players, and near the end of the game I definitely started to feel the rails using an evil character-there are *no* evil options for resolving the Ust Natha plotline that don't end up screwing you over in the end, and trying to refuse to help the surface elves has some rather unfortunate consequences.

It's rough to play evil campaigns but at the same time, soo fun. Someday I'd like to see an update to the series that rectifies a lot of the issues playing evil in BG causes. Seeing as the makers of the Extended Edition were barred from making any drastic changes though, I sadly don't see that happening any time soon.

Schneidend

CaloNord said:

@Sergio‌ I had a play with that mod years ago, it wasn't to bad actually. Don't know it works properly with EE though.

@deltago‌ Yea, but they weren't anymore difficult really. After you killed the couple of named morons no one came after you again? Police just gave up? 'Look there goes that wanted mass murderer that killed all the cops in NYC but let's not do anything about it. . . ' ?

Well, if you kill all the cops, who, exactly, is going to be the one to do anything about it?

Kamigoroshi

Schneidend said:

CaloNord said:

@Sergio‌ I had a play with that mod years ago, it wasn't to bad actually. Don't know it works properly with EE though.

@deltago‌ Yea, but they weren't anymore difficult really. After you killed the couple of named morons no one came after you again? Police just gave up? 'Look there goes that wanted mass murderer that killed all the cops in NYC but let's not do anything about it. . . ' ?

Well, if you kill all the cops, who, exactly, is going to be the one to do anything about it?

Other criminals, most likely. None of them would exactly like it if some lunatic scion of murder walks right into their territory, destroys their hard work of bribing every single cop in town and finally plunders their 'clients' as well. Bad for business.

Having some sort of hostile celestial encounter would be neat as well in ToB. But we already have Dorn for that, I guess.

the_spyder

CaloNord said:

@Sergio‌ I had a play with that mod years ago, it wasn't to bad actually. Don't know it works properly with EE though.

@deltago‌ Yea, but they weren't anymore difficult really. After you killed the couple of named morons no one came after you again? Police just gave up? 'Look there goes that wanted mass murderer that killed all the cops in NYC but let's not do anything about it. . . ' ?

I am all for more 'Evil' options. However, in the example above "Hey, look there goes the group that mass-murdered the entire police force of Baldur's gate", would YOU go after them? I mean short of Eleminster and a select few others, beyond a certain point, you become nigh unstoppable.

And also consider that you are set on a path to destroy Irenicus. Being one of the few capable of that task, and already possessed of the tools and direction to do that, do you think that it might be prudent to wait until you finish that task. Just saying, tactically...

With that having been said, absolutely the reputation system could use some tweaking.

elminster

the_spyder said:

Eleminster

I wouldn't be too concerned about this "Eleminster" character. He sounds like a cheap knockoff of the real deal

element

elminster said:

the_spyder said:

Eleminster

I wouldn't be too concerned about this "Eleminster" character. He sounds like a cheap knockoff of the real deal

hes an Evil twin!!!

the_spyder

element said:

elminster said:

the_spyder said:

Eleminster

I wouldn't be too concerned about this "Eleminster" character. He sounds like a cheap knockoff of the real deal

hes an Evil twin!!!

He's a doppelganger.

CrevsDaak

If you want to play Evil, I recommend aTweaks' Unbiased Quest Rewards component.

For role-playing, maybe you could play a Xzar-like PC, and randomly Fire(ball)-ifry random peasants, or maybe a NE Bounty Hunter who kills everyone on sight for their belongings. I played a LE character who would kill politicians (without anyone else knowing, so no reputation loss) to then promote herself as ruler/leader.

CaloNord

CrevsDaak said:

If you want to play Evil, I recommend aTweaks' Unbiased Quest Rewards component.

For role-playing, maybe you could play a Xzar-like PC, and randomly Fire(ball)-ifry random peasants, or maybe a NE Bounty Hunter who kills everyone on sight for their belongings. I played a LE character who would kill politicians (without anyone else knowing, so no reputation loss) to then promote herself as ruler/leader.

Oh my my. Politicians. That would be a cathartic experience. . . :P

I just like the Arcanum system, where dialogue can be influenced by your intelligence and has a nice variety of good, neutral and evil options. At the moment it feels a teeny bit biased.

Poor Elminster. :P Beaten up by a naked insane gnomish monk illegal class. . . :P

demented

I would love to see this, but I doubt how likely it is. Baldur's Gate came out 15 years ago and in that time no game with a morality system has managed to balance good and evil well. Even Planescape: Torment struggled with this.

In fact morality has become even simpler in games these days. In BG, there's law, chaos and neutrality to consider but games now only focus on a very limited interpretation of good and evil. And evil is always the worse choice. You'll either be attacked by idiot pedestrians (Infamous), given huge handicaps (Red Dead Redemption) or just forced to act like stupid evil (just about every game with a morality system).

While good gets an interesting story, is given far more advantages and is allowed to act like a sane human being.

And forget about neutrality. About the only games I've come across in the last decade that allows for a middle ground are The Witcher and Fallout: New Vegas.

the_spyder

CaloNord said:

At the moment it feels a teeny bit biased.

That's like saying the Kardashians are a teeny bit dumb.

Not necessarily related to good vs evil, but... I seem to remember that ToEE had a number of "INT" or "CHA" based tiers for conversation options. Certainly NWN2 Storm of Zehir did as well. Mask of the Betrayer did as well for that matter. That makes sense, but it is far to situational to be proliferated (or that is I imagine the argument that happens in the game development stage).

I personally think it should be less about "Good v Evil" and more about reputation, respect and likability. If you set three levers like that, you could model most types of reactions to a person. Either they like you, they respect you or they fear you.

Catoblepas

F:NV has its own problems with it's morality system. Arcade will leave if you have too high a rep with Ceaser's Legion, Boone kills Ceaser's Legion on sight, and Cass leaves if your Karma drops too low. In addition, there are a lot more 'good' quests available than 'evil' ones (just compare the number of quests Camp Forlorn Hope is involved with compared to it's Legion counterpart, Nelson) While there are plenty of NCR quests that will help you raise your rep with them without angering other factions, Legion quests inevitably have you stomping all over the other factions. despite being a great game, IMO it falls into many of the same patterns that games with evil campaigns have had for ages.

Compared to a lot of more recent games though, I agree. Mass Effect, Skyrim etc seemed rather limited to me in this regard.

I think Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer did a pretty good job of being even handed in regards to evil and good players, though that kind of fell apart in the end game and you find yourself in the familiar and tiresome 'kill your party members' situation to get an evil ending.

Tyranus

Kamigoroshi said:

Schneidend said:

CaloNord said:

@Sergio‌ I had a play with that mod years ago, it wasn't to bad actually. Don't know it works properly with EE though.

@deltago‌ Yea, but they weren't anymore difficult really. After you killed the couple of named morons no one came after you again? Police just gave up? 'Look there goes that wanted mass murderer that killed all the cops in NYC but let's not do anything about it. . . ' ?

Well, if you kill all the cops, who, exactly, is going to be the one to do anything about it?

Other criminals, most likely. None of them would exactly like it if some lunatic scion of murder walks right into their territory, destroys their hard work of bribing every single cop in town and finally plunders their 'clients' as well. Bad for business.

Having some sort of hostile celestial encounter would be neat as well in ToB. But we already have Dorn for that, I guess.

I'm sure in the DnD universe there's a well fleshed out insurance option for "natural disasters/monsters/acts of the gods." It would seem like a common enough occurence after all these years.

A group of celestials ambushing you after murdering Blathazar would be the best. The good pantheon knew his 'secret' plan all along and were hedging their bets on him. I'm sure that would be enough to piss them off and send a hit squad.

Tyranus

Catoblepas said:

I think Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer did a pretty good job of being even handed in regards to evil and good players, though that kind of fell apart in the end game and you find yourself in the familiar and tiresome 'kill your party members' situation to get an evil ending.

NWN:MOTB was one of the best evil campaigns I've ever played my entire life. The flavour of the land fit so well following the path of the devourer. The evil options were so well fleshed out and vicious that you really felt like a massive prick the whole playthrough.

You create an evil companion from the corpse of the first boss you fight, who then eats other characters you encounter and absorbs their power. You savour the taste of the soul of a dead god. You bend your 'curse' to your will, forcing the tortured memories of The Betrayer to devour its one true love. You genuinely become an agent of destruction more powerful than the Gods!

Screw it, I'm starting another MOTB playthrough.

edit: Thanks @Sergio. Totally forgot about the tags.

Tyranus

And because I forgot to the last post.

[Deleted User]

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CaloNord

I was just about to suggest that. While most of us have no doubt played it, there will be some who haven't yet.

I will agree though, it was pretty well thought out. I'm just looking for some intelligent evil mostly. I don't want to cavort around the sword coast slaughtering everything in sight, I more want to be able to manipulate, demand more quest rewards, threaten and black mail, just generally be an ass. But without resorting to brutal mass slayings that drive store prices through the roof. . .