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Class Kits of Ill Repute and their viability

jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
There are typically 3 kits that I see over and over mentioned as far away the worst in the game: Shapeshifter, Beastmaster, and Wizard Slayer. Having never played any of them, my question isn't about them being underpowered, or even that they need to be fixed. My interest is if in fact these kits are just simply viable for a regular core run through of both games. What are peoples thought/experiences with these classes??
Post edited by jjstraka34 on

Comments

  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited July 2014
    These might indeed be the three ill-reputed classes.
    I can't say anything about the Shapeshifter as I've never played one.
    The Beastmaster is definitely viable in my experience. I've taken one through a modded game with SCS installed without serious issues. The only "bad" thing about Beastmasters compared to the other Ranger kits is their lack weapon choices, but honestly I don't consider it to be that bad. You can use bows, staves and clubs of which there are fine weapons available throughout the trilogy. You also can't use heavy armor, unlike plain Rangers. This can be seen as a drawback in BG1 where there's no great light armor (Shadow Armor AC4 is thieves only), but in BG2 it's not really an issue anymore, and even in BG1 it can be remedied with items (Shield amulet) and potions.
    The Wizard Slayer kit does deserve its reputation as being weak compared to other kits. The main issue is that Wizard Slayers can't protect themselves against most of the status effects that mages can cause through their spellcasting. This is due to the fact that both potions and rings/amulets/belts/bracers/cloaks are off limits. Thus protection against effects such as Panic, Confusion, Hold/Stun etc can only be obtained through protections that enchanted weapons, armor, helmets, and shields give (and technically boots as well, though in practice there aren't any such protective boots iirc). The WS' magic resistance increases to o slowly to be relied upon in the absence of potions and items. It's an interesting challenge though, finding the perfect combination of usable items (such as Shield of Harmony and Dragonslayer long sword in BG2) to properly protect the WS against mages, so that he/she can actually do what they're supposed to do: slaying wizards.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    I started a Beastmaster in SoA, intended to dual him to cleric, but I dont think he had enough wis. Dual wielding staff maces was a profound thing... considering lorewise they start as walking sticks, than morph for battle. So my PC looked like a superfit minmaxed guy disguised as a cripple. :s

    Anyways, I liked the summons, but they eventually were just meatshields for my solo. It was too boring/tedius to play, so I abandoned it.

    I think it seemed like a reasonable class, but was not nearly as versatile as a stalker, and worse than a pure ranger. You could totally do a run with one. I probably wont run one again though. The summons had some HP though, so they arent trash, but dont expect much damage dealing.

    Wizard slayers seem playable, moreso in bg1, but unrewarding imo. You can do it, but they really suck vs poeerful casters. :&
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    Interesting so far, that's what I assumed about both the kits mentioned so far....that Beastmaster is a meatshield summoner (which seems logical) and that Wizard Slayer is something you'd want to roll for RP/Challenge. Shapeshifter, however, is often mentioned as being extremely viable in early BG but practically broken to the point of non-viability in SoA and ToB, which would be disappointing.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    I havent much shapeshifter experience... I developed a pathological hatred for non-Avenger druids when I tried using Jaheira the first time. Lvl 1 druid was garbage and didnt gain fast, but 2nd level spells must be... GOODBERRY?! This was old vanilla, so not even scimitars. So awful. I cant believe people liked using her, she was awful in Vanilla.

    As a result, I only tried a shapeshifter once in SoA. It struggled enough in Irenicus' Dungeon that I dropped it. Druid spells are an embarassment until lvl 5, and the form wasnt really as good as just using a Berserker or Bsrbarian.

    However, apparently the greater form is worthehile, especially as the party meatshield. High level druid spells and abilities are cool enough to make the kit plsyable, but those lesser ww forms are useless later, and not spectacular in most of SoA. Like casting Tenser's Transformation with a pure mage. :/
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    I guess it's the difference between a kit that is weak (which we can all agree these 3 are, which isn't something to cry over) or a kit that is broken. Your comments lead me to believe that Wizard Slayers and Beastmasters, while certainly not in the league of a Blade or Blackguard, or viable options for someone who wants to try them. Shapeshifter I'm not sold on though. The main point that always comes up is that they don't scale well at all. As you mentioned, the lesser werewolf form is supposedly immensely overpowered out of the gate, but completely useless by the time you get into the 2nd game. I guess the only question becomes if greater werewolf form is something you can take through ToB, or if the scaling just dooms it as the levels get higher and higher.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited July 2014
    You can take a shapeshifter in Greater Werewolf form through ToB. You just have to be willing to pre-buff before most battles. Armor of Faith, Regeneration, Improved Haste, or potions etc. Personally I wouldn't do it because its like driving a fast car at 20 km/hr. By hitting level 15 you unlock a bunch of level 7 (and other) spells. Its pretty much a druids chance to shine. So I personally wouldn't bother shapeshifting much at that point, because chances are you've got something you can be casting instead.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    I haven't taken a Shapeshifter protagonist to the end of ToB, but I've done it with Cernd in the party, who is a Shapeshifter. He was rather weak in early-SoA (as is well known), but he turned out to be very strong in late-SoA and pretty useful even in ToB, definitely better than I had expected. With the right equipment, his Greater Werewolf form is pretty difficult to hit (even for ToB enemies), and in his human form he's a powerful caster by the later stages, so by the end he can work quite effectively either front-row or back-row.

    A Shapeshifter protagonist would presumably be at least as tough as Cernd, if not more so. So yes, I've no doubt at all that Shapeshifter is a perfectly viable kit. What is different from some other classes/kits, however, is that the effective way to use a Shapeshifter changes as the game progresses, so it calls for some tactical understanding.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    Great comments, as I always enjoy constructive feedback on lesser-used kits/npcs. For some further delving into this thread, what (in your experience) is the best way to utilize a Wizard Slayer if you are so inclined to play one??
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited July 2014

    Great comments, as I always enjoy constructive feedback on lesser-used kits/npcs. For some further delving into this thread, what (in your experience) is the best way to utilize a Wizard Slayer if you are so inclined to play one??

    As a secondary character you create in a multiplayer game whose sole purpose is to walk into traps :D

    But on a more serious note probably as a wizard slayer -> thief dual class.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    I think the bounty hunter kit is pretty dopey too. The special snare they get starts out pretty good, causing both damage and disability, but then it gets really dumb as the damage gets removed and replaced with effects that simply stall for time. The level 16 snare is actually, by far, the worst of the traps since if you save against it absolutely nothing happens and if you fail your save you are disabled but also invincible, which is a HUGE step down from being disabled AND damaged AND still vulnerable to attack. It gets only slightly better at level 21 because the save gets removed, but other than that it is the same issue. So you get less skill points in exchange for a one time bonus to set traps (which the regular thief makes up for in only 4 levels) and a special trap that starts out really good but gets really pointless at high levels. Yay?
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    Your comment about the Bounty Hunter brings up a interesting point as well, which is that many of the kits seem to be just as much for RP flavor as anything else (take for example any specialty Wizard kit). For many of them, you are basically just given a subtle nudge toward a certain playstyle (and indeed, if you are a trap enthusiast, why not a Bounty Hunter??). Often times the trade-off seems to be a net negative, but that is where the RP element comes in. If anything, this thread is persuading me that every kit is at least viable, which isn't the same thing as being powerful. It actually makes the game better to have some quirky, less powerful builds than nonetheless can fill niche when you want them to.
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    Wizard Slayer and Beastmaster have serious flaws to them... But otherwise they are good.

    Wizard Slayer, the amount of magic resistance gained is rather low and wont really make much of an difference until towards the end of ToB... Where mages are rarer in favor of dragons and what not. The only fight it might help in is Sendai.

    The lack of the ability to wear most protective magical items makes them unable to gain protections against certain things.

    Their main upside, the power to give casters spell failure chance... Only works with melee hits, which interrupt casting anyways (though it might work through effects like stoneskin, not sure about that).

    So overall it's a fighter with less protection against some effects.

    Then there's Beastmaster...

    The lack of metallic weapons limits you to ranged weapons, quarterstaff and clubs pretty much, and with Studded Leather for armor, you're rather limited in combat compared to that of a normal Ranger.

    In return for these limitations, you gain the ability to cast Find Familiar, and Animal Summoning 1 through 3 spells... With Animal Summoning 3, you get some 12 HD animals to help you, I suppose they will remain useful until the end of Baldur's Gate 1, but come shadows of Amn they will start falling off into being useless...


    Then there's the ever unpopular Shapeshifter... Oh the Shapeshifter...

    You give up the ability to wear armor and other shapeshift abilities, to get a heavily nerfed werewolf form.

    Things like less damage than a normal werewolf and your resistances being locked to how much bonuses to them you're supposed to gain.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Kaltzor said:


    Then there's the ever unpopular Shapeshifter... Oh the Shapeshifter...

    You give up the ability to wear armor and other shapeshift abilities, to get a heavily nerfed werewolf form.

    Things like less damage than a normal werewolf and your resistances being locked to how much bonuses to them you're supposed to gain.

    Elemental and physical damage resistances aren't locked, its just magic resistance that is. As far as I'm aware that is consistent with any other shapeshifting form in the game.

    They are also hardly alone in that they are treated differently than werewolves you encounter in the game. That is likely the case with most shapeshifting forms frankly. Besides, both forms get advantages the non-player werewolf/greater werewolves don't get.

    As for what they are "supposed" to gain.

    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/502052/#Comment_502052
  • dockaboomskidockaboomski Member Posts: 440
    Honestly, I only ever play a wizard slayer, mainly to stop myself from spamming all the best protection items and spreading them between party members, making it very well-rounded. Wizard Slayer Re-balancing by aVENGER definitely makes them more viable.

    I made Minsc a Beastmaster once in EasyTutu because of Boo, and he still kicked ass with a quarterstaff and could wear Ankheg Plate (being it isn't metal), so it wasn't that bad.

    Never have done Shapeshifter, although I like Cernd, I never usually shape-shifted him.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Bounty Hunters are a good dual out thief, usually to fighter I suppose, but cleric would be fascinating. They arent nerfed as hard as Assassin is for skills, so a lower level dual (hope you like the Mercykiller Ring!) can have some skillsas a thief. Their traps can be thrown iirc, which is nasty. A mage would be better to take another kit though.

    Also, while locking down an opponent isnt always ideal, playing MOO2 with mods can result in large fleets of Psilons with a lockdown weapon. :s its the only times I ever had much trouble, as isolating portions of my fleet really could turn things ugly. Of course, you cant just dismisd the Maze effect. :@ probably more frustrsting than useful. STASIS FIELD! Heck of a trick.
  • SionaSiona Member Posts: 79
    For the shapeshifter, there is a fantastically large difference between form nerfed and weak class. Many players simply assume one from the other. Shapeshifter can be a fantastically powerful class. Just in 2, it doesn't play as straightforward. As I've said elsewhere, I'm a very poor player and I can dominate even in 2 with one.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    The Bounty Hunter's Maze traps should not be underestimated. As you will all know, the duration of the maze effect depends on the INT of the mazed character: the higher the INT, the shorter the duration. So if you're battling groups of foes, odds are they will have mostly different INT scores, allowing Charname and his party to take on their foes one or two at a time. First the mages, later the warriors. Very nice really.
  • ryuken87ryuken87 Member Posts: 563
    Of course they're "viable" in that completing the game with them isn't too much trouble, especially with a party to back you up. They just suck relative to other classes.
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