Fighting on your terrain, or super-cheesy??
jjstraka34
Member Posts: 9,850
Tonight I did the Werewolf ship, and my strategy was to send Imoen up cloaked, start the Karoug dialog, and have her lure the pack out in small doses to my party down below. Once I whittled the left group down, I buffed the party and send Imoen back up to pull Karoug and the last two to the basement into the waiting arms of a party waiting with protections, haste, wands of paralyzation and the heavens and other lycanthrope-killing goodies. Needless to say he went down.
But the whole thing got me thinking....is it legitimate to not fight the enemies on the floor they are spawned on?? Is luring them to their deaths a cheesy gameplay mechanic or good tactical fighting??
But the whole thing got me thinking....is it legitimate to not fight the enemies on the floor they are spawned on?? Is luring them to their deaths a cheesy gameplay mechanic or good tactical fighting??
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Comments
It would be a solid tactic if the AI scripts were more intelligent. However, as it stands now, I'd consider it abusing the limitations of the AI scripts. Not that I haven't done so myself, mind you.
I've used this tactic myself, but I must admit it is kind of abusing the scripting of the AI's in the game. If doing so makes you feel too dirty, just try a different, less dubious tactic.
The reason why hostile NPCs follow you through rooms anyway is so that you can't cheese by quickly killing an enemy and leaving to rest up, only to repeat the process until the room is cleared. There's no fair solution to preventing both these cheesing tactics without locking the character in the room once hostiles are detected, which itself is pretty unfair and irrational from a roleplaying perspective (in most cases).
I can see it being a legitimate move if the AI were more intelligent. For example you could lure them to the floor below using Immy, where two of your party members are in wait, invisible. The AI would assume that you've either gone downstairs or are hidden so they'd likely split up. Then you'd pick them off one by one.
There are a lot of similar moments in the Baldur's Gate series. It all comes down to your own perspective. If you believe that using cheese in an especially cheesy fight means one cancels out the other, then that's your prerogative. Just as it is for those who believe that cheese is unacceptable in any circumstances.
1. Defeat the oppo using any cheese necessary.
2. Win without using cheese.
3. Achieve the desired result as surgically as possible using the fewest resources and sustaining the least injury.
Whatever pattern(s) of behaviour is programmed into the AI, players will naturally learn what to expect, and devise tactics to win against that behaviour. If the AI were re-programmed to behave differently, then players would quickly adapt by devising ways to defeat the new behaviour. That's not "cheese", it's simply intelligent play ... and because real-life combatants also try to anticipate how their opponent is likely to act, it's also justifiable role-playing.
My favorite tactic to kill Karoug is taking 2 Potions of Fire Resistance, equipping the Ring of Fire Resistance, buffing up with Stoneskin, Fireshield (both Red & Blue), Blur, stack some good AC (-10 or more) and then use Potions of Explosions/Oil of Fiery Breath to the Karoug so you regenerate and damage the Greater Werewolf at the same moment, also you can target Potions of Fire Breath to the Greater Werewolf and run in circles.
Also, I took Karoug down in melee with a (level 14) Thief (Swashbuckler so no Backstab) with simply the Burning Earth, a Potion of Defense, 2 Potions of Mind Focusing, a Potion of Regeneration, a Potion of Fortitude, an Oil of Speed, a Potion of Power, Ring of Protection +2, a plain Studded Leather Armor (just for the AC modifiers), Buckley's Buckler, Wolfsbane Charm, the Golden Belt (+3 bonus vs Slashing weapons AC modifier), the Cloak of Balduran, the Gauntlets of Specialization and one casting of the Bhaalspawn innate Draw Upon Holy Might, with the following stats: 18/19/14/19/12/13. [spoiler=Calculations]This sums up in:
AC calculation:
+10 base AC
-3 AC from Swashbuckler's passive ability
-10 AC from Potion of Defense
-1 from Buckley's Buckler
-2 from Ring of Protection +2
-1 from Cloak of Balduran
-6 from 25 DEX bonus (base DEX 19 +6 from Potions of Mind Focusing)
10-10-6-3-2-1-1=-13 AC
HP calculation:
+20 from 22 CON (base 14 CON, Potion of Fortitude sets base to 18, +1 from Buckley's Buckler and +3 from Bhaalspawn innate DUHM)
+60 from Thief levels (10*6=60)
+8 from Thief levels (4*2=8)
+20% from Potion of Power (set to 120%)
10+60+8=78+20%=93 HP
Damage calculation:
1d8+1, +2 form Long sword +1 (hit as +4), +2 vs Regenerating creatures
+9 from STR (base is 18, +3 from DUHM)
+2 from Proficiencies (2 points spent in Long Sword)
+2 bonus from Swashbuckler's passive ability.
+2 form Wolfsbane Charm
1d8+1+2+2+9=15-22, +4 damage per hit
THAC0 calculation:
+14 base from Thief level
-2 THAC0 from Swashbuckler's passive ability
-1 THAC0 from Proficiencies (2 points spent on Long Sword)
-1 from The Burning Earth
-2 from Wolfsbane Charm
-20% base from Potion of Power (set to 80%)
(14-20%)-2-1-1=5
[/spoiler] So Karoug might be difficult, but there are much harder foes in BG2.
Edit: apparently, I had the auto correct on, and it changed every single from to form... evil machine.
Joking of course but really he never ends to surprise me for his deep knowledge and precision at his young age!
(But then on a serious note my youth was misspent until I was about 16 soooooo I can't exactly claim to be the greatest about that sort of thing.)
OK we keep talking about Karoug -- only four weapons damaging him and all that. I'm thinking. The Sword of Balduran, right? Because it's specially marked to hit him or whatever. After that it's +3 weapons right? So the Two-Handed Sword +3, Quarterstaff +3, Short Sword +3, Kiel's Morningstar? What about Kondar, the Shapeshifting Bastard Sword? Could the Moonblade hit him? How about that club, +3 vs. unnatural creatures, does that one work (and is it even in the game?!) ? Drizzt's scimitars? Backbiter? Cursed Berserking Sword? I'd appreciate if someone set the record straight for me on this one.
In real battles, whether modern or medieval (or mythical), both sides would employ strategies involving subterfuge and guile, and many times these approaches change and adapt to the varying encounters. While the player characters can do this under the omnipotent authority figure that is you, the AIs are stuck in predetermined strategies which can easily be countered if known. In this respect, the enemies in Baldur's Gate function more like mindless automatons rather than actual people, which is—at least most of the time—quite unrealistic. So if we're talking about realism, the AI scripts are already as unrealistic as you can get.
Regarding the whole argument that the fight with the Greater Wolfwere is itself cheesy, I can totally sympathize. Combating broken AI mechanics with manipulating the AI script is understandable, if not altogether wholesome, gameplay. As for me, though, I don't recall cheating or cheesing during this fight. It was definitely a bitch, but after a lot of buffing and preparation, I charged into battle and wiped the room in just under a few minutes—you know, minus the 30 minutes of incessant reloads. Then again, I suppose the entire idea of preparing for a battle my characters should have no knowledge of is pretty cheesy in itself, seeing how my own knowledge of events from a different timeline (i.e., game before being reloading, different playthrough, etc.) shouldn't reasonably factor into my character's decisions. But as far as I'm concerned, it appears that this sort of trial-and-error preplanning was intended. Otherwise, this game would be near-impossible even without the Insane Difficulty.
The following four weapons can harm Karoug: Flame Tongue, Sword of Balduran, Kondar & Werebane.
@CrevsDaak I belive you missed the Golden Belt in your Calculations, also you should have worn the Wolfsbane Charm, not because you needed it but more just so you could be as beefy as possible
OT: I think it's a little bit cheesy, but I too do it on occasion, I play for enjoyment and not some epeen kind of achievement and abusing bad AI can be quite amusing.
I think most fights are designed for a bit more head on approach and should therefore be played as such. But with a bit of cheese one can manage quite hard fights with a lower level party
In the end, unless you play your first playthrough with no reloads or cheesing, you are to some extent manipulating the boundaries of the game. Seeing how such a challenge would be virtually unbeatable, not to mention the issue of whether to replay the game after having died, I suppose certain types of cheesy tactics are overlooked.
In the end, it really just comes down to what you're comfortable with doing. For example, when I
@CrevsDaak, @Nokkenbuer - there's some terminological confusion in your comparison between BG1 and BG2. Karoug is a Greater Wolfwere, not a Greater Werewolf, which is not the same thing. The weapon restrictions to damage them are different, and Greater Wolfweres are tougher than Greater Werewolves.
Even though I asserted earlier in this thread that I don't see it as "cheesy" to make use of terrain features (doors/stairways/whatever) in combat, I don't actually find such tactics necessary to beat Karoug. If your party is well-armed and well-buffed, you can take on the whole room at once and kill them all - charge Karoug in melee with a Hasted warrior armed with (and preferably proficient in) one (or indeed two, if dual-wielding) of the five weapons which work against him, support that warrior with a mage blasting him with fire damage (because he's vulnerable to fire - preferably use Melf's Minute Meteors, which have a very high APR, then other fire magic afterwards if Karoug is still standing), and use the rest of your party first to take out Karoug's mage and then to take out his wolfwere lackeys. By the time the rest of the room is cleared, Karoug is probably dead too, but if not then give him some more magical fire damage (e.g. Flamestrike from a Cleric's spell or wand, Potion of Firebreath from anyone, etc.) until he falls.
That's just straight toe-to-toe combat, and works reliably. Doing it this way, I can't recall ever needing to reload against Karoug.
However, the pack of wolfweres to the left are also quite vulnerable to fire, so it helps a lot to throw a Fireball to that end of the deck as the first combat instruction (and if you time it well, you can have the Fireball already in flight at the moment when they spawn). I tend to use a wand for this, because it usually works faster than casting. The closest party member to where the pack spawns (and therefore the one they'll probably target) is often one of your back row, so commonly it'll be a Mage ... but that's no problem so long as the Mage has Stoneskin up. Stoneskin will hold them off for long enough to kill Karoug's mage first, then everyone who isn't engaging Karoug can turn on the wolfwere pack (most of whom will already have been damaged by the Fireball), and they won't last long.
One key tip: don't jump the gun by attacking Karoug before he changes into his Greater Wolfwere form. Move your Hasted warrior (who will be engaging him) next to him a.s.a.p., but don't give the attack order until he has turned hostile and transformed - in his "human" shape, he's pretty much unkillable (by design, to make sure that the dialogue can happen), so you're wasting your strikes (and more to the point, wasting your magic) until he transforms. Usually Karoug's mage will turn hostile before Karoug himself does, and sometimes can even be already killed before Karoug goes into action.