In vanilla BG2, and also in SCS, any spell that takes down spell protections (e.g., Spell Thrust, Secret Word, Ruby Ray) is flagged to bypass Spell Immunity. The main point of Spell Immunity: Abjuration in practice is to protect from Dispel/Remove Magic.
Wow, really?!? Does "flagged to" mean "does" in this instance or could there be engine bugs lurking here? (I'm on BGT at the moment, so old engine, not EE.)
I must say I've usually tried to apply the "correct" debuff on SCS mages on the assumption that SI:A did protect against these, so it's entirely possible that I've just missed this completely. It looks like I'm going to try out these debuffs a lot more frequently from now on... (It's a bit annoying that the combat log doesn't show which protections you've dispelled when you successfully dispel something.)
Short story: SI:Abj never worked against any spell removal (Spell Thrust, Secret Word, Pierce Magic, etc.), which effectively means SI:Abj never worked against 90% of the existing abjuration spells. The only real reason SCS uses SI:Abj is to protect the caster from Dispel Magic, and to a lesser extent few abjuration spells.
In vanilla BG2, and also in SCS, any spell that takes down spell protections (e.g., Spell Thrust, Secret Word, Ruby Ray) is flagged to bypass Spell Immunity. The main point of Spell Immunity: Abjuration in practice is to protect from Dispel/Remove Magic.
WHOA. I did not know that. Is that documented... anywhere?? Is Breach flagged the same way? (Why is Breach an Abjuration spell to begin with??)
Sigh - it's a stupid and opaque way to deal with a stupid problem. (The vanilla game's way, I mean - SCS does good work with flawed materials.) Why didn't they simply flag Spell Shield, and maybe the other protection spells, to ignore Dispel/Remove Magic? It would be a much less roundabout way to get a similar result.
DavidW said Spell Thrust et al. are coded to bypass SI:A. So if a mage us protected by Spell Turning, Stoneskin and SI:A, and gets hit by a Secret Word, what happens? ??
IIRC, Spell Turning is the higher-level of the two, and antimagic preferentially strips the highest-level defence. So I think it will strip Spell Turning and leave SI:A in place (but I could be misremembering). In any case, either will protect from Breach, which isn't a "takes down spell protections" spell.
@DavidW : If you ever do get back to coding on SCS, it would be wonderful if this could be documented in the appropriate spell descriptions. (Maybe something along the lines of "This spell is not stopped by SI:Abjuration."?)
Hmm, interesting chart. I had always thought Globe of Invulnerability would protect against Secret Word since, as a 4th-level spell, it should not be able to pierce the Globe to reach the target.
Sigh. So needlessly complicated. Mona Lisa my arse.
There was actually a discussion about Secret Word vs Globe of Invulnerability on the BG2 Fix Pack boards. It looks like the fix discussed was included in BG[1/2]EE.
When I use SCS I set it for generally smarter AI, smarter spellcasters, better calls for help, improved monster types, etc., but I do not install some of the smarter boss fights and many of the chapter end fights because some of those require too many reloads for my taste. Love that SCS is customizable in this way.
@DavidW : If you ever do get back to coding on SCS, it would be wonderful if this could be documented in the appropriate spell descriptions. (Maybe something along the lines of "This spell is not stopped by SI:Abjuration."?)
Anyway, that's probably enough derailment .
Well, it's vanilla behaviour, nothing to do with SCS - but I might mention it anyway, since quite a few people get confused.
@DavidW : If you ever do get back to coding on SCS, it would be wonderful if this could be documented in the appropriate spell descriptions. (Maybe something along the lines of "This spell is not stopped by SI:Abjuration."?)
Anyway, that's probably enough derailment .
Well, it's vanilla behaviour, nothing to do with SCS - but I might mention it anyway, since quite a few people get confused.
Oh, yeah, sure. I'm just saying that it might be good to document it anyway -- it clearly surprised quite a few of us even though we've been playing for years .
Personally, I play with almost full SCS installed, but for those who have doubts about it, I strongly recommend a partial install. If you are doubtful, then I think there is a good likelihood that you won't enjoy most of the tactical challenges, things like moving or removing items, and in particular Smarter Mages which does change the character of the game significantly.
However, things like Smarter General AI and improved calls for help will improve your game experience and the verisimilitude with only a moderate increase in difficulty- seeing enemy fighters use potions is cool, without being radically difficult. I think people who don't like the idea of smarter mages are sometimes too quick to reject the mod as a whole.
So I think I might understand the appeal....Silke would get smoked by a normal level one party, but now?? She's a world beater. I'm sitting here running through the spellbook and trying to figure out what will be able to counter what she can throw at me. Stoneskin, Mirror Image, followed by Invisibility, multiple Sleep spells, Haste, and Melf's Acid Arrow. I'm not sure it's doable with what I have now, but I can see that:
1.) Tactics become paramount, pausing will increase 3 fold. 2.) Individual commands will be commonplace. Often in vanilla I would issue whole group blanket commands based on scripts, not here. 3. Potions, lesser used spells, magical arrows, wands etc are not only useful, but required, thus making gold ALOT more valuable, and your purchases must be weighed with that in mind.
No idea if I'll beat Silke without at least a visit to High Hedge for spells, but oddly I don't feel frustrated. It feels exhilarating.
I'll keep updating my thoughts on this as I go along (slowly, as I'm working on other stuff in both games as well). I find the generally improved AI great. This evening I went to the Shipwreck Coast and did the quest with the Sirine and the Ogre-Mage. This fight was still generally a little cheese-worthy as I was able to get a shot in with a Wand of Lightning before he turned hostile from Xzar. Again, it's crazy to see him throwing out Mirror Image, Sleep, Charm and Magic Missile, to go along with some hefty melee abilities. Even this simple fight requires movement, buffs, debuffs, and a little luck (granted most of my party is still level 1, so options are limited). This fight wouldn't have been doable without the use of multiple wand charges, and the last time I played through I don't think I used a wand charge til Chapter 5. Once I rez Kagain (who fell for the group) I'll be quite excited to hand him his new helm.
I love SCS, especially for BG1 since it's pretty much a walk in the park when you know the drill.
I've had a nasty but fun surprise playing with SCS in BG2. I improved a lot of monsters thinking that would be a fun challenge. The lich in the Crooked Crane was a very nasty encounter, with two timestops and several fiends summoned. My lvl 12 party did not survive the encounter
I hated spirit trolls until I was high enough lvl to spank them fast enough. Firkraag was definitely the toughest fight so far, and I had to rely on Neera and some Wild magic to stand a chance
I agree about Firkraag being very hard. I had to rely on some cheesy strategy about Magic Resistance on him to lower him to 40% without agroing him, then Harm + a hit from my Blackguard with Poison Weapon. As soon as the fight start, he casts PfMW but it's too late, he has the poison in his blood and his HP is reduced to 1 so he dies 1 second later.
Comments
I must say I've usually tried to apply the "correct" debuff on SCS mages on the assumption that SI:A did protect against these, so it's entirely possible that I've just missed this completely. It looks like I'm going to try out these debuffs a lot more frequently from now on... (It's a bit annoying that the combat log doesn't show which protections you've dispelled when you successfully dispel something.)
Ive tried pretty much every cheat or mod you can think off in case that wasnt clear. They are inferior to bg ee.
I used to think that tutu was needed but since ee is much better (less bugs etc) da
Vincis masterpiece is done...or should i say primms?
Anyway thats my 2 cents.
So i say HELL no
But again anything that makes you have fun in bg do it!!! Its all about entertainment. Good to see it played by so many
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoLScCUe7V__dE1RaEhCbm5na0VlakQwYVMxOFJVc1E&usp=sharing
Edit: Ninja'd by DavidW
Anyway, that's probably enough derailment
http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=22882
Pros-refreshing booted-up AI
Convenient fixes
Increased difficulty
Cons-increased difficulty
Long install time (for me at least)
Some bug cheats will be fixed
However, things like Smarter General AI and improved calls for help will improve your game experience and the verisimilitude with only a moderate increase in difficulty- seeing enemy fighters use potions is cool, without being radically difficult. I think people who don't like the idea of smarter mages are sometimes too quick to reject the mod as a whole.
1.) Tactics become paramount, pausing will increase 3 fold.
2.) Individual commands will be commonplace. Often in vanilla I would issue whole group blanket commands based on scripts, not here.
3. Potions, lesser used spells, magical arrows, wands etc are not only useful, but required, thus making gold ALOT more valuable, and your purchases must be weighed with that in mind.
No idea if I'll beat Silke without at least a visit to High Hedge for spells, but oddly I don't feel frustrated. It feels exhilarating.
I've had a nasty but fun surprise playing with SCS in BG2. I improved a lot of monsters thinking that would be a fun challenge. The lich in the Crooked Crane was a very nasty encounter, with two timestops and several fiends summoned. My lvl 12 party did not survive the encounter
I hated spirit trolls until I was high enough lvl to spank them fast enough.
Firkraag was definitely the toughest fight so far, and I had to rely on Neera and some Wild magic to stand a chance