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Archer kit + focus on crossbows

fish0331fish0331 Member Posts: 197
Anyone ever run a archer that primarily just used x bows? Was it fun? Does having 1 APR suck as much as I think it would?

Also, is the big metal rod useful as a end game weapon and would it fall under x bow?

jackjackSCARY_WIZARD

Comments

  • DetectiveMittensDetectiveMittens Member Posts: 234
    edited August 2014
    Never tried it personally, For endgame: you are better off using the Firetooth+4/+5 (Of which you can easily obtain early on in SOA for a weighty price from watcher's Keep.)

    As with most ammunition providing weapons, you can stack them with enchanted bolts for more damage

    jackjackSCARY_WIZARD
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    In BG1, you can use either the Army Scythe or the Heavy Crossbow of Accuracy. You should normally use Army Scythe for the extra attack (directly competitive with any Bow, less requirements), but consider the +5 to hit vs very hard to hit enemies. Also nice with rare or costly magic bolts.

    Army Scythe and Bolts of Lightning deals mega damage to anything not immune. Crossbows are just fine.

    Endgame, the Big Metal Rod is quite decent if used correctly, but Firetooth is likely better for an archer.

    jackjack
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,410
    edited August 2014
    You can get the light crossbow of speed (+1 attack) very early from Copper Coronet. Then again you get the Tugian bow (also +1 attack on top of short bow's base 2) there too, so...still, bolts of lightning do much more damage than fire, cold or acid arrows, they are clearly more powerful. Sadly they are very rare to find than other elemental arrows, too.

    You need to get Firetooth ASAP from WK merchant, it is the best weapon for a crossbow master IMHO. I would say despite having one attack less than a shortbow master, the higher damage output from the Firetooth makes a crossbow master very viable indeed.

    No idea about big metal rod, but I don't think it would count as a xbow.

  • fish0331fish0331 Member Posts: 197
    does whirlwind and gww work with crossbow?

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,180
    fish0331 said:

    does whirlwind and gww work with crossbow?

    Yes. Any fighter HLA will work with it.

    jackjack
  • SionaSiona Member Posts: 79
    I've taken a crossbow archer through 1 and a large portion of 2. The lack of 1 apr wasn't very noticeable, really.

    elminsterjackjack
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    What is the big metal rod?

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Comes with the Pantaloon Quest.

    elminsterjackjack
  • The_Potty_1The_Potty_1 Member Posts: 430
    Yup, reach into my pockets of resistance and grab my big metal rod :p

    On topic, crossbows deal more damage than bows, at the expense of rate of fire. However, if you look at the respective ammunitions, something else becomes apparent. Bows are for disrupting mages. High rate of fire, elemental damage, bring it on.

    Now crossbow bolts. Yes bolt of lightning (electricity), yes Firetooth & bow of searing (both fire), but add to that Kuo-Toa Bolts, Sahuagin Paralytic Bolts, & Drow Bolts of Stunning. All stun your enemies, requiring saves against spells, paralysation, & death respectively.

    Unfortunately, you only get any of these after Spellhold, and the drow ones disintegrate, but for a short time there, after you get whirlwind attack and before ToB where all of your enemies make all of their saves, you are seriously bad news.

  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    Bolts of Biting are also quite vicious.

    GoturalLemernisT2av
  • OneAngryMushroomOneAngryMushroom Member Posts: 564
    @meagloth‌ a crossbow that comes with The Big Metal Unit. It fires Pulse and Scorcher and Frag Grenades.

    jackjackmeagloth
  • terzaerianterzaerian Member Posts: 231
    edited August 2014
    This forum gives me too many idea for playthroughs I will never complete. Now I want to make an x-bow sniper who uses a soundset hacked together from different TF2 Sniper sayings.

    jackjackmeaglothluskan
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,414
    edited August 2014

    The whole idea of being a "grandmaster" of crossbows is weird. It's a point & shoot weapon; I could seeing getting up to, say, specialized... but it doesn't seem like the same range of advancement, skill-wise, as with bows.

    There surely are different levels of marksmanship, whether the weapon is bow, sling, crossbow or even firearm. Infinity Engine games don't reflect this due to the fog of war, but high masters of bows, crossbows & slings are supposed to gain "extreme range" allowing them to hit distant targets.

    Also, why are there separate proficiencies for longbows and shortbows? Do you really think a longbow grandmaster would look at a shortbow and not know how to work it?

    PnP rules allow for "related weapon bonuses" so a longbow specialist can use a short bow better than a untrained mook, but since it's not a weapon he's completely familiar with (he's not quite sure how much pull to give it to fire a certain distance), there is some penalty. BG2/BGEE don't implement this (BG1 didn't have to, since it grouped weapons for proficiencies).

    Also, why is Archer a ranger kit? Rangers have stealth and druid magic; the Archer kit is defined entirely by being really good with particular weapons. That seems like it's really in the fighter's wheelhouse.

    Food for thought

    Rangers are hunters and woodsmen, so weapons like bows, daggers, and axes seem like a natural fit. Also, the PHB cites Robin Hood, Orion, and the huntresses of Diana (a goddess often pictured with a bow) as examples of rangers.

    terzaerianelminsterjackjackGirewan
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,288
    Just talking BG1 here, but Hasted with the Light Crossbow of Speed you're getting 3 APR. Bolts of Biting do 30 damage in 15 seconds. That's a lot of damage at three attacks for every round.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2014
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    dunbarAstroBryGuyArdul
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,180
    edited August 2014

    The whole idea of being a "grandmaster" of crossbows is weird. It's a point & shoot weapon; I could seeing getting up to, say, specialized... but it doesn't seem like the same range of advancement, skill-wise, as with bows.

    Also, why is Archer a ranger kit? Rangers have stealth and druid magic; the Archer kit is defined entirely by being really good with particular weapons. That seems like it's really in the fighter's wheelhouse.

    Food for thought

    Presumably part of what grandmastery represents (in the case of crossbows) would be an experienced soldiers ability to quickly reload. Not to mention (as AstroBryGuy pointed out) that it would reflect different levels of marksmanship.

    Perhaps the reason the archer is a ranger kit is because they decided they were going to axe the Feralan (a ranger kit found in PnP and whose name still exists as an internal description in BG2) in favour of the archer. Maybe they wanted to give the paladin/fighter/ranger each three kits (I don't know). There is an "archer" fighter kit found in the complete book of gnomes & halflings, but it only bears passing resemblance to the archer kit found in BGEE/BG2/BG2EE.



    The Archer

    An Archer is a halfling warrior who devotes nearly all of his or her time and
    energy to the development of skill with a missile weapon. "Archer" is the generic
    name for this kit: a "slinger" version of the kit also exists and is nearly as popular as
    the Archer itself, while halflings who live in jungle regions (like the wild halflings of
    Athas) have developed a blowgun variant. In those rare campaigns where firearms are
    allowed, this kit can be used to create a halfling sharpshooter (assuming the firearms
    are small enough for a halfling to wield; i.e., muskets rather than arquebuses).
    An Archer must have a Dexterity score of at least 15.

    Often an Archer comes from a background as a hunter, though membership in the
    local militia is another possible avenue into the kit.

    Roads to Adventure: Archers are likely to be drawn into adventure for several
    reasons. The challenge of competition is strong--the best Archer in the village will
    naturally be tempted to test his or her skill against small folk, other demihumans, and
    human archers. Because their skill is so easily measurable, halfling Archers are
    particularly susceptible to this urge to go out and test their abilities against the
    toughest competition they can find. Alternately, a halfling Archer may be vigorously
    recruited by other adventurers who recognize the value of a skilled bowman.
    Also, the Archer's skill helps to make him or her an accomplished hunter, and
    many an adventure can begin during a long stalk through the trackless forest. At the
    same time, his or her likely status as a prominent member of the village's defense
    militia makes the archer a likely candidate for any rescue party or guard duty that
    might develop.

    Role: The Archer is a respected figure among a race where missile skill is the
    norm--he or she is the best of the best. In a small village he or she will be one of the
    primary hunters. Archers work well with Forestwalkers; it is often the Archer's task to
    bring down the game the Forestwalker has tracked.
    The Archer also forms a staunch pillar of the community defense force--often, a
    skilled Archer will be placed in command of a company of halfling bowmen.
    Secondary Skills: An Archer should have the Bowyer/Fletcher secondary skill.

    Weapon Proficiencies: Three of the Archer's initial weapons proficiency slots
    must be used for missile weapons. If the weapons specialization optional rules are
    used, the Archer can specialize in one chosen missile weapon by expending two (not
    three, as is the norm) slots for the weapon of specialization.
    Bonus Non-Weapon Proficiencies: All Archers automatically receive the
    Bowyer/Fletcher proficiency.

    Recommended Non-Weapon Proficiencies: The character should consider taking
    Hunting, Firebuilding, Tracking, and Weather Sense.

    Equipment: The Archer's most essential piece of equipment is his or her bow or
    sling. At the start of his or her career this is likely to be a non-magical (although wellmade)
    weapon, but throughout his or her adventures the character will continually
    search for the perfect bow. All Archers carry a plentiful supply of ammunition--
    usually at least twice the usual quiverfull of arrows.

    As often as not, halflings with this kit will collect a variety of special missile types
    for use in special situations. For example, an Archer might have a few blunt-headed
    arrows (for stunning, rather than killing, targets), barbed arrows with thin lines
    attached (enabling him or her to retrieve small game simply by reeling in the string
    after a hit) and fire arrows (extra-long arrows with rags wrapped around their heads;
    when soaked with oil and ignited, these missiles fly half the distance of regular arrows
    but have an excellent chance to ignite any flammable substance that they strike). A
    slinger will likewise have a selection of special sling bullets--some spiked, others
    hollow and filled with skunk oil, sleeping gas, or a number of other noxious
    substances.

    Special Benefits: The Archer can choose to make a called shot, earning additional
    bonuses on his or her missile attacks in certain circumstances. By electing to take
    careful aim, he or she gains a +2 bonus on his or her attack roll for that arrow.
    However, this requires that he or she forgo initiative (i.e., the shot must be the last act
    of a melee round). Also, the Archer must concentrate on the shot, meaning he or she
    can only make one shot that round. Finally, any successful attack against the Archer
    will naturally break his or her concentration and cause the benefit to be lost, although
    in this case the shot still has a normal chance to hit. The +2 bonus is in addition to any
    other attack bonuses the character might have due to Dexterity, weapon
    specialization, bless spells, or magical weaponry.

    In outdoor melee, the same procedure (single shot; last act in the round) can be
    used to increase the range of the shot instead of gaining the attack bonus (i.e., the
    Archer can choose to make a called shot with increased accuracy or extended range,
    but not both at the same time). The extra range is equal to the weapon's medium range
    added to the long range; the attack is modified with the long range penalty to hit.
    Special Hindrances: The Archer can gain normal proficiency in only one melee
    weapon. He or she can spend proficiency slots on others but will always wield them
    with a -1 penalty on all attack rolls. For example, suppose Willem the Archer learns
    to use a short sword as well as his bow, sling, and throwing knives. If he later decides
    to use a proficiency for hand-to-hand knife-fighting, he can do so (assuming he has
    the proficiency slot to spare) but he will suffer a -1 penalty on his melee attack rolls
    with the knife.

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  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,414
    edited August 2014

    PnP rules allow for "related weapon bonuses" ... BG2/BGEE don't implement this (BG1 didn't have to, since it grouped weapons for proficiencies).

    Yeah, the more I think about it the more I think BG1 did it better. Way, way back in my PnP days I used to give proficiency in groups of weapons, and then let players specialize further in single weapons. I think that was actually in one of the rule books. But BG2's method just forces too much planning and taking my head out of the game.
    I did like BG1's weapon groups, although I thought IWD did it best. BG1's groups were a little too broad (large swords includes long swords, scimitar, bastard swords, two-handers, katanas; blunt is every melee weapon that doesn't have a blade). IWD still used groups, but narrowed them a bit (large swords / great swords).

    And yes, weapon group proficiencies was in Combat & Tactics. It cost 2 proficiency slots to get proficiency in all the weapons in a tight group, or 3 for a broad group.

    Rangers are hunters and woodsmen, so weapons like bows, daggers, and axes seem like a natural fit. Also, the PHB cites Robin Hood, Orion, and the huntresses of Diana

    Yeah, that's not wrong, but on the other hand Robin Hood works better in the Forest Runner kit (kind of a forest-based guerrilla freedom fighter) than the archer kit. And why can't fighters be specialized archers? Look at the Battle of Normandy, non-Ranger ranged troops are important roles for soldiers. Maybe the fighter kit should focus on crossbows (on topic! boom) and the ranger kit should be about bows. Marksman/fighter, and Archer/ranger. Or something like that.

    And what about poor slings?? I might also add a Halfling-only 'Slinger' kit...
    Check out the Slingmaster kit from Kitpack. That would be awesome adapted for Halfling fighters.

    http://www.shsforums.net/files/file/1026-bgee-kitpack/

    jackjack
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2014
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • fish0331fish0331 Member Posts: 197
    elminster said:


    Presumably part of what grandmastery represents (in the case of crossbows) would be an experienced soldiers ability to quickly reload. Not to mention (as AstroBryGuy pointed out) that it would reflect different levels of marksmanship.

    Also have to factor in things like the skill it takes to shoot a moving target, range, elevation, wind, weapon maintenance....

    elminsterjackjack
  • luskanluskan Member Posts: 269
    What's a good proficiency allocation at character creation? Two in the ranged weapon of choice, but what about the other two pips?

    I was thinking one in scimitars so I could eventually wield Belm, but Belm is better in the off-hand which means manually switching from a ranged weapon to two weapon style.

    My other thoughts was Quarterstaff/Halberd/Two-handed Sword with two-handed weapon style (easy weapon switch) or mace and single-weapon style to use the Stupifier in BG1. Or even two pips in another ranged weapon to diversify ammo types... what to do?

  • ElrandirElrandir Member Posts: 1,653
    While I see no issues with the Archer kit, I do think an Arbalester kit could be pretty cool. (albeit a bit redundant)

    As for proficiencies, I would say it depends on your character's STR and party. If you're a very strong character who would hit often with his melee weapon, then the 2Hsword and halberd are good choices. Of course this assumes that you aren't using Minsc/Keldorn/Dorn/Other, who also use 2Hswords and are often specced into halberds because of the Ravager. If you're not as strong, or you want your party members to wield the 2Hswords and halberds, then I'd say to go ahead and use the quarterstaff. Or even use spears for more flavour! Although they're not the greatest weapon ever, they're not bad at all, and there's a very good one for endgame. It also seems to fit in quite well with the archer style of combat; That is, keeping your foes at a distance.

    luskan
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