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Why are some weapons unlinked when others are loved?

SionaSiona Member Posts: 79
I'm just looking for input on something I've often wondered about. Why are some weapons loved while others of equal damage are adored and constantly recommended?

It seems like common thinking is that daggers, a 1d4 weapon, aren't looked at as really viable, but the same players wouldn't blink an eye at speccing a war hammer. Flails are considered amazing but shortswords are an almost completely asset upon option. I know in both of those examples there is a +1 on the blunts, but that's pretty statistically insignificant, it would seem.

Many seemingly equal weapons like spears get the same thinking.

Not baiting or looking to cause flames, I really don't understand the thinking.

Edit: is it simply end-game potential?

Comments

  • SpungiSpungi Member Posts: 216
    I think reason for flails is FoA and defender of easthaven. And hammer got Crom Faeyr

  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 946
    Short Swords ARE used... in the offhand.

    jackjackmeaglothBlackravenAristillius
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Short swords and daggers are excellent in BG1, less excellent in BG2.

    Warhammers in BG1 can nab Ashideena early, which is an excellent weapon.

    Imo, most people underrate the Dagger of Venom vs Varscona, but admittedly the Staff of Striking is a powerhouse. Ultimately though, many people look very much at the latter available weapons as more significant, and pip accordingly.

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    The aerodynamic design of clubs makes them the kings of melee weapons per se. They can even be used as pillows when camping in the wilds - something no other weapon cathegory in BG is able to.

    SCARY_WIZARDAnduinElrandirjackjack
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,641
    Metagaming and perception.

    Spears, daggers and short swords are piercing and a handful of enemies have a resistance to them. Think clay golems.

    Then there is the selection of magical ones available. Flail of Ages +3 is available very early in the game and can carry a warrior to then end. There are some nice Spears in the game, however, many of these you get late in the game and running around with Unicorm or Halcyon till then seems like a wasted potential especially when you have other 2 handed weapons of +3 variable available like Lilarcor and Dragon's Bane.

    Then there is the perception that short swords and daggers are rogue and mage weapons. Anytime i pick up a magical short sword it automatically goes into my thieves inventory.

    Many NPCs also use short swords. Being able to equip everyone in your party with the best gear may have you looking at other options when you are creating a character.

    dstoltzfusBlackraventerzaerianjackjack
  • SedSed Member Posts: 789
    edited August 2014
    There is also the issue with different armor class against different kind of weapons, and in that aspect the Warhammer will always win over a dagger.

    A lot of armors and enemies simply have a higher armor class against piercing weapons (and some as mentioned before are even immune). Even a lowly skeleton has damage reduction against piercing damage, which means a club or hammer will hurt it much much more.

  • ryuken87ryuken87 Member Posts: 563
    It's little to do with the weapon class itself, more the particular weapons available within that class. You can only have one main-hand weapon at a time, so a weapon class is defined by the one or two best weapons in that class. E.g. There is one *really* good katana in SoA which is available very early, therefore katanas are popular.

  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 432
    Walstafa said:

    The beloved weapons seem to be the ones that have ridiculous magical versions available.

    +1

    I'm having this problem with Jah. There are no "good" weapons for her in BG1 really. Eventually, late game, she could have a +2 scimitar, but there's a lot of game between start and that sword.

  • AstafasAstafas Member Posts: 448
    Kneller said:

    Walstafa said:

    The beloved weapons seem to be the ones that have ridiculous magical versions available.

    +1

    I'm having this problem with Jah. There are no "good" weapons for her in BG1 really. Eventually, late game, she could have a +2 scimitar, but there's a lot of game between start and that sword.
    Bg1EE introduced a +2 scimitar early/mid-game.

    jackjack
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    It's just the availability of magical weapons. Different for bg1 than bg2. Daggers and short sword are great in bg1 because the dagger of venom and the short sword of backstabbing(one of very few +3 weapons in the game.) flails and war hammers are great in bg2 because crom faeyr and the flail of ages, to name a few.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,186
    edited August 2014
    Kneller said:

    Walstafa said:

    The beloved weapons seem to be the ones that have ridiculous magical versions available.

    +1

    I'm having this problem with Jah. There are no "good" weapons for her in BG1 really. Eventually, late game, she could have a +2 scimitar, but there's a lot of game between start and that sword.

    Quarterstaff +3, one of Drizzt's scimitars, dagger of venom, quarterstaff +2, scimitar+2, club+2, spear +2, etc.

    She doesn't start with proficiency in some of these but they are all good weapons. Some were also added by bgee so they may not be applicable.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    In BG vanilla, it was pretty much a +1 quarterstaff, or sticking her with a +1 sling. :/ Really awful.

  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    elminster said:

    Kneller said:

    Walstafa said:

    The beloved weapons seem to be the ones that have ridiculous magical versions available.

    +1

    I'm having this problem with Jah. There are no "good" weapons for her in BG1 really. Eventually, late game, she could have a +2 scimitar, but there's a lot of game between start and that sword.

    Quarterstaff +3, one of Drizzt's scimitars, dagger of venom, quarterstaff +2, scimitar+2, club+2, spear +2, etc.

    She doesn't start with proficiency in some of these but they are all good weapons. Some were also added by bgee so they may not be applicable.
    Seems entirely reasonable to EEKeeper the club obtained from assisting the Dryad in Cloudpeaks map. Generally make it +1 so that Jaheira will have a one-handed magical weapon plus darts or sling and a +1Shield very early in the game.

    No biggie, imho, merely correcting an oversight because there just ain't no love when you encounter an early Vampire Wolf and the only Magical Weapon in play is Varscona or Ashideena.

  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 432
    Astafas said:

    Kneller said:

    Walstafa said:

    The beloved weapons seem to be the ones that have ridiculous magical versions available.

    +1

    I'm having this problem with Jah. There are no "good" weapons for her in BG1 really. Eventually, late game, she could have a +2 scimitar, but there's a lot of game between start and that sword.
    Bg1EE introduced a +2 scimitar early/mid-game.
    yeah, but I have GoG, not EE, and I'm not planning to put down the money a third time (I bought the original on CD back in the day). :)

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,186
    edited August 2014
    Kneller said:

    Astafas said:

    Kneller said:

    Walstafa said:

    The beloved weapons seem to be the ones that have ridiculous magical versions available.

    +1

    I'm having this problem with Jah. There are no "good" weapons for her in BG1 really. Eventually, late game, she could have a +2 scimitar, but there's a lot of game between start and that sword.
    Bg1EE introduced a +2 scimitar early/mid-game.
    yeah, but I have GoG, not EE, and I'm not planning to put down the money a third time (I bought the original on CD back in the day). :)
    If you've got a mage with an invisibility spell/s memorized (and perhaps protection from petrification) getting the scimitar +2 from the top of the external area of Durlag's Tower isn't too involved. There is also the Staff Spear, which I forgot to mention, that is certainly obtainable for a mid level party. In the originals case since Jaheira starts with "blunt weapon" proficiency rather than club proficiency she actually has a lot of options.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    @elminster‌ the only blunt weapons Jaheria could use in vanilla were clubs (no magical examples), and quarterstaffs, which in vanilla iirc there was only the basic +1. TotSC was a huge boost to fighter druids, with scimitars being implemented and awesomes staves showing up. But yeah, she was brutally awful as a warrior in the original vanilla.

    dstoltzfus
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,186
    edited August 2014
    DreadKhan said:

    @elminster‌ the only blunt weapons Jaheria could use in vanilla were clubs (no magical examples), and quarterstaffs, which in vanilla iirc there was only the basic +1. TotSC was a huge boost to fighter druids, with scimitars being implemented and awesomes staves showing up. But yeah, she was brutally awful as a warrior in the original vanilla.

    Right but Kneller has it from Gog.com...which includes totsc.

    Plus I'm pretty sure she could use daggers (under the small sword proficiency), including the dagger of venom and dagger +2 longtooth (which hits as a 1d6 weapon). While these aren't blunt weapons they certainly are pretty valid weapons for her to use (and for any enemy that needed a magical blunt weapon, like a mustard jelly, you could get the quarterstaff +1 early on).

    Post edited by elminster on
  • terzaerianterzaerian Member Posts: 231
    Daggers are good for Barbarians or Berserkers who want to circumvent the restriction on ranged weapons, especially when you get the boomerang daggers in BG2, and they give you some nasty off-hands in the late-game, iirc. Granted, throwing daggers are tedious to manage but if you have someone doing more traditional ranged then they're a good compliment; just make sure he or she has something besides bare fists when the daggers run out.

  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 946
    Barbarians can use ranged weapons. Kensai and Cavaliers cant.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Kensais are disgustingly good ranged combants actually. No +4/5 throwing dagger though, just the one axe iirc.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018


    No biggie, imho, merely correcting an oversight because there just ain't no love when you encounter an early Vampire Wolf and the only Magical Weapon in play is Varscona or Ashideena.

    Not so. There are several +1 daggers lying around that, if you have Varscona, you would have had ample opportunity to get. She can use that.

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