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jaheira and level 2 spells

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  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 432
    But not the GoG version? That's what I'm playing (using EasyTutu).

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,180
    Yes it should work with tutu.

    AstroBryGuy
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    edited August 2014
    Kneller said:


    I don't know if I'd call spamming web and plinking that advanced. Speaking of advanced tactics though, isn't there some mod or something that beefs up the AI? I think it might only be for BG2, but I recall hearing something about that.

    With respect, you have asked for advice on how to effectively use 2nd level druid spells. You've been given loads of good suggestioins. Instead of taking the advice, you have repeatedly twisted those responses and responded with snide responses like this. Please enjoy the game as you see fit.

    aqzina
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 432
    edited August 2014
    Dude, I'm not getting snide, I'm asking questions. Is an internet forum not a place to ask questions?

    That's just how strategy works. People analyze it, question it, and try to optimize it. So, when people say, "You could always do X." And I say, "Well, I could do X, but I'm doing Y and it has A, B, and C as advantages. Why do X?" That's not copping an attitude, that's just trying to understand.

    I still don't get why the find traps strategy is better. Having a constantly invisible trap monkey for a single second level wizard spell is crazy useful. I can scout an entire map, eliminate all the traps, suss out all the encounter locations and choose the order and manner with which to approach each. This single second level spell is like having a wizard's eye (level 4 spell) on steroids.

    Or, I can awkwardly manage movement between two characters, one of them is in stealth mode, the other trailing behind. If I find a trap, and there are mobs around (and there usually are), I can't do anything about it as that will break stealth. Assuming that the trap doesn't block passage entirely (though it usually does), I'd have to find a way around it to get a better picture of the field to figure out how I'm going to deal with this mob while also avoiding this trap. God forbid a caster mob throws confusion or rigid thinking on a party member, they wander, and accidentally trigger the trap I so deftly am avoiding. What am I missing?

    And, I get why Web is so popular, but it's not an advanced strategy. It was one of the first things I (and probably most people) started doing with this game. Advanced strategy would be doing something more efficient than Web plinking. I'm not even sure how web got brought into this. It has nothing to do with Jah, so I know I didn't bring it up.

    But, this is the first time I've run a party with this strategy. In seeing how effective everyone can be at these new roles, it really shines a light on Jah's spell selection (particularly level 2, obviously). I'm already up to my butt in goodberries. The only thing I've got going for her anymore is Prot. Fire. but I don't even use all the memorizations between rests.

    Btw, I finished cloakwood forest and there were only two poisonings. One of Minsc when fighting the spiders and one of Jah in the wyvern nest. I used charname's slow poison SLA for one and a potion of health for another. I would have used the SLA twice, but I only had the one use per day and I wanted to do the entire cloakwood forest without resting.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    edited August 2014
    @Kneller - Using WEB strategically. It is an effective strategy to completing the game. No one said anything about "Spamming" except you.

    Your reference to ranged combat as being "Plinking", and the comment about not being able to get around traps, strongly suggests that the strategic approach of hitting a target from range is not your idea of fun. Fine. No one is saying that You have to play this way. It is, however a very solid strategy in the game.

    Finally, as has been said several times already, there are uses for 2nd level Druid spells. Clearly they require a change of the way you play the game, and in that you don't want to make the change. This however does not mean that the strategies are no good, merely that they are different from the way you do them. And considering that most of the available choices have been discussed and perfectly valid uses of them have been posted, perhaps you are merely not wishing to change enough to see the value in them. And that is perfectly fine.

    Play the game as you find fun. If you want to try a different way, listen to the ways that are being suggested. If they are not to your liking, instead of using derogatory terms to demean them, merely say 'Thanks for the suggestion' and move on. Just my two cents.

    Edited for clarity.

    Post edited by the_spyder on
    kaguanaTuth
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 432
    edited August 2014

    If they are not to your liking, instead of using derogatory terms to demean them, merely say 'Thanks for the suggestion' and move on.

    It's an internet discussion forum. People are more likely to discuss things. If that's not your kind of conversation, then feel free to skip the thread. There's a place on the internet for one-way conversations. They're called blogs. Accusing people of being rude just for asking questions is borderline trolling in my book.

    What derogatory terms have I used? "Plinking"? That's not derogatory. Plinking is the activity of shooting at stationary non-standard targets. I would say that mobs caught in a web spell fit the bill. And, I never said web wasn't an effective strategy. I said it wasn't "advanced", and not very efficient. It makes a mess, and if someone makes their save you still have to deal with them and now the field has a huge hazard area you have to avoid unless to have free action. God forbid the mob has a spell caster as now you can't even use your muscle to beat some spell failure into them. It can be, however, quite safe. Though you usually have to "spam" (or did you mean this was a derogatory term?) it to make sure it sticks (no pun intended). With stinking cloud + summon undead on the other hand, you can still get the same level of CC (the lack of a save penalty is mitigated by the fact that if they do fail their save, there's a 50% chance they won't get to make a save the next round). And, you have some meatshields in there for those who do make their save. Obviously doesn't work against undead mobs (or constructs probably), but still has a lot of general application. It makes about as much of a mess as web, but it's a more controlled mess.

    I don't know where you are getting these inferences. I don't have a problem with ranged combat. Didn't I mention at some point that Khalid is a dedicated archer? He actually has about the same amount of kills as Jah (the tank). And what does not being able to get around traps have to do with ranged combat? Why leave a trap on the field for an encounter when you can easily get rid of it while also getting a better view of the field prior to the encounter? Is the find traps approach viable? Yes. Is it any more effective than what I am currently doing? I don't see how. I'm open to an explanation.

    I notice that you haven't actually responded to any of the points I made and instead just criticize whatever context you infer from the questions. I'm the OP, and I guess I didn't explicitly state this in the original post, but what I was looking for was how to use her 2nd level slots more effectively and efficiently than I currently do. So, when someone says something that seems less efficient and effective, it stands to reason that one would ask questions, because perhaps there is something to said strategy that one has overlooked. That's what this thread is about.

    So, feel free to drop the rhetoric and join the conversation. That's just my two cents.

  • dstoltzfusdstoltzfus Member Posts: 280
    Slow poison by passed the pause of potion use and has a very short casting time. You might run out of antidotes, why not use Slow Poison when you can and save antidotes for emergencies?

    I might try using Goodberries more after reading this.

    Barkskin adds +1 to all saving throws except spells.

    Flame Blade can be useful. 1d4 sucks, but the added fire damage can be good early in low levels when a regular club or staff might not work (right?)

    I guess that's all I have to add.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,180
    edited August 2014
    Wow this thread got heated.



    Barkskin adds +1 to all saving throws except spells.

    Honestly I had forgotten this. It still wouldn't make me ever bother with it. Especially given the Shield amulet (which gives better melee AC until a cleric/druid is level 8 and better ranged AC until the druid/cleric is level 16).

    lolien
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 432
    elminster said:

    Wow this thread got heated.

    Seriously. Dude can't handle a debate.

    I wasn't really aware of the barkskin thing. I wonder if it stacks with bless, chant, etc. Probably. But one would hope for more of a bang out of a level 2 spell.

    Flame Blade can be useful. 1d4 sucks, but the added fire damage can be good early in low levels when a regular club or staff might not work (right?)

    I considered that, and if there were some trolls to fight early on, it would have been super helpful. But, Shillelagh does almost as much damage, lasts longer, and counts as a magical weapon, too. Jah has that +2 scimitar now, so neither is terribly useful. But, up to that point, I only used Shillelagh twice. Once was to fight a vampiric wolf, and the other was for no good reason whatsoever, really just to use it.

    I never really noticed a difference between the casting time of slow poison and the quaffing time of a potion.

    I think this discussion has given me a little more of an appreciation for goodberries, though. If they stacked higher than 10, it would be even better. Figure a stack of heal potions cures 40hp, a stack of goodberries only 10. Regardless, I like to run as long as I can before resting, so having a few stacks of these in the inventory would help to extend that.

    I suppose with everything else Jah can do, I can let a single spell level slide.

    dstoltzfus
  • TuthTuth Member Posts: 233
    Just to add a bit to the tactic that you're using. The main problem I see for Jaheira is not the choice of spells, but the fact that you're using her as a tank. If you do so you have the argument that her spells can be interrupted, which could even mean that any spell would be wasted. That's why you said that slow poison is worse than having the antidote. Well, this could be said about any spell, so yeah, if you're afraid that she will waste a spell what's the point of giving her any spell? That's the part of the challenge in such tactic, where you have a spellcaster as a frontliner, you run the risk of having her spells interrupted while in combat. To me it looks as a fun challenge, but if you're power gaming, then her 2nd level spells are kind of meh, but have thier rare uses.

  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    Druid second level spells leave much to be desired. That said, barkskin can be a reasonable buff for monks, kensais and mages prior to getting spirit armour, or if you want to save your mage's 4th level spell slots for something else.

    Resist fire and cold is situationally useful, and will stack with the 3rd level fire resist for over 100% fire resist.

    Flame blade is a cheap troll killer, given that its not competing with many useful spells.

    Charm person and animal is probably the only other spell worth considering.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,180
    Kneller said:


    Seriously. Dude can't handle a debate.

    Comments like this don't help matters.

    artificial_sunlightjackjackElrandirDreadKhan
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 432
    Tuth said:

    The main problem I see for Jaheira is not the choice of spells, but the fact that you're using her as a tank.

    That's a good point. And your arguments are sound for a combat caster. She makes a great tank, though. And, I try to focus her spell selection on pre-combat buffs or post combat healing. That way, she never needs to cast spells in combat. I wish they had cure spells every level like in 3e. That would solve the problem easy.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,279
    Why do you people keep saying that there are plenty of antidotes out there for emergencies?

    There are quite a few of them around chapters 2-3 , in fact, the only place where antidotes can be found in dozens is Durlag's tower (not a safe place to be at lower levels either).

    GOD BLESS JAHEIRA FOR ALL THE POISON SLOWING SHE'S DONE SO FAR.

    dstoltzfuslolienSophiathe_spyder
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,180
    DJKajuru said:

    Why do you people keep saying that there are plenty of antidotes out there for emergencies?

    There are quite a few of them around chapters 2-3 , in fact, the only place where antidotes can be found in dozens is Durlag's tower (not a safe place to be at lower levels either).

    GOD BLESS JAHEIRA FOR ALL THE POISON SLOWING SHE'S DONE SO FAR.

    The temple of wisdom (outside the friendly arm inn) sells 15, the song of the morning (outside beregost) sells 15, and the temple of helm (Nashkel) sells 20.

    lolien
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,279
    @elminster
    Unfortunately , these antidotes cost a quantity of money that my party would rather spend on healing potions and magical healings/ressurections . How often do you actually buy those?

    dstoltzfusthe_spyder
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,180
    edited August 2014
    DJKajuru said:

    @elminster
    Unfortunately , these antidotes cost a quantity of money that my party would rather spend on healing potions and magical healings/ressurections . How often do you actually buy those?

    Me? almost never. Not so much because price but because I normally have a cleric or druid who can do it anyways. Plus you can potentially get a bunch of antidotes from agreeing to do the spider quest in beregost. So I end up not needing much more than that. It would be different in a no-reload run though I imagine.

    lolienDJKajuruthe_spyder
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 432
    DJKajuru said:

    Why do you people keep saying that there are plenty of antidotes out there for emergencies?.

    Because there are? You can get a half dozen from Unshey early on for the Beregost spider quest, and potions of health pop up here and there as treasure. It took me until the end of cloakwood to even use up the ones from Unshey. Actually, I think I still have one left and I'm in BG city. On top of that, if your rep is high enough, charname develops the slow poison SLA, and Dynaheir already has it if you take her. Depending on how you're playing your party, you shouldn't even be getting hit all that much, nevermind poisoned.

    DJKajuru
  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    I am finding this thread kinda surreal. Surely we can all agree that Druid 2nd Level Spells are not as powerful as Cleric 2nd Level Spells such as Silence 15' Radius or 2nd Level Mage Spells such as Invisibility, Mirror Image, etc. The question for me is whether that is a conscious choice on the part of Bioware Devs to create the best possible game.

    Perhaps Devs wanted to keep Jaheira from being so powerful that she detracted from the overall game- experience of their target customers. I mean, who wants to play a Charname that has just seen his foster-father assassinated and now finds him/herself dominated by a Mother-figure who is just so damned useful that Charname begins to simply tag along with her plans... Somethin' like that!

    I agree that Find Traps is not all that great. A Cleric in Sanctuary can pretty much do the same thing and can also trigger the traps. Slow Poison is excellent imho but easily replaced by having each party member carrying 2 Antidotes as Quick Items.

    Elrandirlolienthe_spyder
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @Eadwyn_G8keeper - absolutely the choices of 2nd level spells are not great. They do not compare to some of the really awesome stuff that Wizards get, nor even some stuff that Clerics get. However, there are effective ways to use what is there, which was primarily the point of the thread (in my mind) and what was attempted to be communicated.

    As to your point, I don't know if the Devs made a conscious decision or not. My recollection is that Druids in PnP don't generally get awesome stuff at that level regardless. They do get stuff like speak with animals and the like, which for role playing purposes, can be very useful, but not so much in a CRPG.

    I might go so far as to say that the decisions "Might" have been the reverse, that they decided to make Jaheira a Druid to tone down some of her awesomeness. Or to be more specific, the concept might have been to have a healer/warrior and they thought that a Fighter/Cleric would have been more powerful than they wanted so they went Druid.

    This is all rampant speculation on my part and in no way based on inside knowledge. Merely that "to me" the facts seem to fit the situation.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @elminster Thanks very much for that run down. I don't think I ever ran a Druid in 2E PnP, so my knowledge of their spells is limited (and my brain isn't what it used to be. too many Mind flayers at it). Seems to me that there was a lot of potential there. And a fair amount of power for that matter. Hmmm...

    I think Obscurement would be a fascinating spell effect, effectively turning the tables on the fog of war. That could be very useful, particularly with hit and fade tactics.

    My recollection (hazy at best) is that heat/cool metal and warp wood both took time to effect so probably would be less effective in a combat situation, no? Maybe small amounts of damage that built? And I think the solution was to drop/disrobe armor and weapons? Maybe that could be useful.

    An elemental summonable would be pretty cool though.

    And that produce flame spell might be useful against trolls if nothing else.

    Interesting.

    elminster
  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    In one of my current playthroughs I am experimenting with a Fighter/Mage/Thief Elf [which also happened to be a 96pt hand-roll, my best so far..]. I decided to do several of the quests near Beregost before heading to FAI on Day 8.

    At that point Charname was Level 1/1/2 and Imoen was level 4Thief. My plan was to finish Nashkel Mines fairly quickly, dismiss Jaheira and Khalid, dual-class Imoen then head for the Ankhegs, Sirenes, and Basilisks with Branwen and either Minsc or Kivan/Coran.

    But Miss Jaheira turned out to be Level 4/4!!! Seems a bit excessive... [Khalid was only Level 4] Curiously, and I still don't understand perzactly ~ Lady Branwen only a few game-days further on was still only a Level 2 Cleric when recruited.

    Still it was very interesting to sense how in my role-players mind that first meeting in FAI after Charname and Imoen had scored some major successes, most noticeably Zargal and his buddies to score the +2Whistling Sword. Quite a different vibe!

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @Eadwyn_G8keeper - very interesting. Yeah, I never understood how levels were distributed at meeting. Which is to say that I understand that, depending on the XP value of Charname at time of meeting, that dictates which version of the NPC gets joined. I just never understood how they decided what was 'Fair' for those splits. I am usually 3rd or 4th level by the time I pick up Minsc and he usually ends up being 1st level??? Ah well. It all levels out.

    Kudos for doing a triple class. Never tried that in BG before.

  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    edited August 2014
    So far my biggest gripe is - only one weapon slot!! I really like the tactical options that having both a ranged and melee weapon option provide. My game is BG vanilla so I cannot go into Inventory to change weapons with game paused. Somehow I got the idea that you can do that in BGEE, but not sure if I got that right or maybe its a mod.

    On another note, one wonders whether the creators of Baldur's Gate concept gave much creative importance to RL issues when they started off emphasizing Ranger-Druid themes in a show-down with the Iron Throne. I really should explore Forgotten Realms [Faerun] more deeply.

    Finished Nashkel Mines with Charname at 2/2/3 but OMG -just as I was congratulating myself for having realized we needed to rest in Mulahey's cave before opening the chest because I had still not had the Chapter 2 dream and Ability bonus...and taking a last look around after recruiting Xan - at least for long enough to get him hooked up with Bentha...
    -"Yikes! WTF has happened to Ashideena!!!" -

    ~Somewhere along the line one of my basic game plans had gotten lost in the shuffle. So I am redoing everything from the point at which we were resurrecting a party member after Bassilus. Which will give me another shot at a favorite challenge: Is it possible to get the Potion of Master Thievery from Vitiare without killing him. A fine point but it will make me feel a bit better about my nefarious plans for the Nashkel Store!!!

    Post edited by Eadwyn_G8keeper on
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Pretty much the only battles Web doesnt win the fight you need only 1 more spell; a second Web!

    Seriously, if you throw in Malison, 2 webs shuts down anything not immune. Works even in ToB often.

    A solo sorcerer used to have the easiest fight vs Sarevok, just cast a few webs, then summon spiders. Feel free to bring some tea to drink.

    the_spyderelminsterlolien
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Yep, web is pretty awesome. I used to hate it. Then I figured out how to use it properly (and there is something to learn there) and now I never leave home without it.

    elminsterjackjacklolien
  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    edited August 2014
    In discussing Jaheira's play features and more generally the low-level abilities of Druids versus Clerics....Druids can use the full range of Darts [not for Clerics]. On the other hand BGEE has really added a great early game goodness for Clerics that the Druids cannot use. The Stupefier. Just rounding out the discussion a bit....

    lolien
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