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jaheira and level 2 spells

What do you use her level 2 spell slots for? I can't find much of a good use for any of them.

Barkskin - short duration and her AC is always better than the spell anyway
Charm Person - not terrible, but pretty situational, and eventually becomes almost obsolete
Find Traps - really?
Flame Blade - not really any better than Shillelagh, especially since it's considered non-magical
Good Berry - the only thing weaker than healing potions and a waste of inventory space, too
Know Aligment - I don't care
Resist Fire/Cold - worth it when I can start sling fireballs, but I only need one or two of these, tops
Slow Poison - I have antidotes (that I never even use up) for that

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Comments

  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 432
    Find Traps - My M.O. with this is to turn a thief invisible, have them scout a level and find all the traps along the way. For an area with multiple floors of traps, I'll just leave the thief invisible and keep them out of combat (they're rubbish at it anyway). If I use FT with Jah, that means I have to invis her to send her with the thief. So, I'm burning an extra 2nd level mage slot, as well as a 2nd level cleric slot, just to take the weight off the only real job a thief has in this game? This would be great for a cleric/thief, but elsewise is more trouble than it's worth, IMO.

    Slow Poison - Jah is more popularly played as a tank (as is how I'm playing her). 2e D&D has never been kind to combat casters, so I rarely have her cast spells in the thick of battle. Also, if anyone is getting poisoned, it's her, because she's the tank. Poison interrupts spellcasting, but not potion quaffing.

    Charm Person or Mammal - I can see this being of some value. Throw it out at the start of a fight. If it sticks, cool. If not, then you wasted the round your enemies spent closing the gap. No big deal. But, with a +3 save, you're probably wasting your time.

    So far, I've just been stocking up on Good Berries. I can always dump them if I need the inventory space. When I get some wands of fire to play with, I'll throw resist fire/cold into the mix. Added to the fire resist ring, she'll barely take a scratch from a fireball. Still, it seems like a pretty lackluster level.

    jahes64
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,414
    If you are amenable to modding, try Camdawg's IWDification mod.

    http://www.gibberlings3.net/iwdification/

    It adds some nice spells for druids. Here's some of the level 2 spells druids get (clerics also get the last one).

    Alicorn Lance (ranged attack): 3d6 damage, -2 AC to target for 3 rounds
    Beast Claw (melee attack): 18/72 STR, 2d4+STR bonus damage, +2 to hit, 2 attacks per round
    Cure Moderate Wounds (healer): 11 hp healing

    elminsterronaldojackjackCrevsDaak
  • ArdulArdul Member Posts: 211
    I can recommend the Spell Revisions mod by @Demivrgvs‌ .. It should very soon come in a version 4.0, and that will dramatically improve druid spell selection options.

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,410
    Charm person is useful to open up slots in mage book. Its duration is 10 rounds IIRC, better than the mage version, and it can charm leopards/bears etc. too. Slow poison is always nice to have for emergency. If you are facing salamanders, ice/fire mephits etc. a quick cast of resist fire/cold helps a lot.

    Barkskin is rubbish. Flame blade is for times if you have no other fire/acid available and you need to kill a troll. You should never fight trolls without ample fire or acid arrows/spells at your disposal! Good berries can help to conserve healing potions at low levels, or when you just take a scratch for 1-2 damage, popping one or two berries help. Still too much effort and work for very little gain.

  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315
    @Ardul the current beta seems extremely solid, with only very few string/text related issues so yes, the official V4 will be out soon. ;) In the meanwhile, if anyone wants to contribute shaping the mod I'm open to suggestions, and more beta testers are always welcome too. :D

    Anyway, just that I'm here let me summarize 2nd lvl druid spells in the current build:

    Barkskin - it improves AC instead of setting it. It's a +2 bonus at 3rd lvl, +3 AC at 9th lvl and +4 AC bonus at 15th caster lvl.

    Charm Person or Animal - the target no longer gets vanilla's +3 bonus to save, making this spell much more effective.

    Find Traps - unchanged.

    Flame Blade - hugely improved as it now deals 2d6+x fire dmg on hit, enchantment lvl improves with lvl up to +3 at 9th caster lvl (which means additional +3 thac0 bonus and +3 fire dmg). Do not allow STR dmg bonus but it is considered "incorporeal" and thus gets +4 thac0 bonus to "bypass armors".

    Resist Fire/Cold - unchanged for now, but I'm open to suggestions to improve it a bit (e.g. faster casting time with lower duration, and/or lower % res extended to all elements).

    Slow Poison - unchanged.

    Fire Trap (new druid-only spell) - imagine a Skull Trap spell which deals fire dmg. Nasty eh? :)

    Regenerate Moderate Wounds (new druid-only spell) - within SRV4 druids no longer get Cure Wound spells but Regenerate Wound variants. RMW grants 1hp every 3 sec for 1 turn + 1round/lvl (up to 3 turns at 10th lvl).

    Gust of Wind (new spell) - disperse cloud spells as vanilla's Zone of Sweet Air. Enemies close to the caster must save vs. breath or be knocked back unconscious for 1 round.

    The official release may contain Alicorn Lance too, albeit 1st lvl Faerie Fire kinda outperforms it imo.

    lolienEadwyn_G8keeper
  • ArdulArdul Member Posts: 211
    @Demivrgvs‌ does this mean, that you won't be including Animal Summoning I, II ... VII in v. 4.0? I really looked forward to that and Monster Summoning I-IX for mages.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2014
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    Ardullolien
  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315
    @Ardul the guy who was working on icons/bams for the new spells disappeared. I will gladly add both Animal Summoning and Monster Summoning spells to V4 if I have spellbook/menu/scroll icons for all of them, but right now I haven't. I also have a handful other really cool new spells on hold because of that. :(

    @subtledoctor your tweak can potentially screw the AI because casting Barkskin after Stoneskin will remove all the latter's skins (up to 10!) and replace them with a single one. In theory you could even use your Barkskin to "Breach" an enemy Stoneskin. :D

    lolienAstroBryGuyArdul
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 432
    @Demivrgvs‌ It amazes me that after 15+ years of this game, people are still actively working to mod it. Cool stuff.

    lolienArdulMeanbunnyCrevsDaak
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • ArdulArdul Member Posts: 211
    edited August 2014
    Demivrgvs said:

    @Ardul the guy who was working on icons/bams for the new spells disappeared. I will gladly add both Animal Summoning and Monster Summoning spells to V4 if I have spellbook/menu/scroll icons for all of them, but right now I haven't. I also have a handful other really cool new spells on hold because of that. :(

    Noooes... That's really too bad :( Is there somewhere else, you might be able to get the icons from?

  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 432

    If Goodberry were first level, it wouldn't feel like such a waste. By the time you get the spell, the party is ~4th level (since Jaheira is multi-classed).

    Good point, but maybe it's worth using goodberry in place of CLW so then you could replace CLW with Doom and AoF. Not that AoF is going to be terribly helpful in BG1, but 10% DR (at CL5) is still 10%.

    I also like the find traps spell...

    I'm not knocking it. It just doesn't fit my playstyle. It's so much easier for me to keep my thief invisible and have her clear the level. Then the party can charge through and clean up.

    I don't think it hurts to have an extra slow poison or two on hand, either, just in case. It could be Charname who's poisoned and maybe also held (unable to use potion), and your druid or cleric with slow poison could save the day.

    If that ever happens, then Minsc and Jah are not doing their job as front liners. My cleric/illusionist already has plenty of defenses to keep from getting in a situation. Often, a single sanctuary is all it takes. However, I usually don't even memorize that, as I never have any trouble holding the line. Things would have to go real bad for my C/I to ever be held and poisoned, in which case, it's time to cast Power Word: Reload.

    The AC values of Barkskin are pretty terrible. I wish it could be used like Strength to actually nerf someone's AC.

    For now, I guess I'm going to go with Fire protections and goodberries.

    BelgarathMTHlolien
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,605
    @Kneller, that's good. I guess everybody knows that second level druid spells aren't that great, while clerics get hold person and silence. Honestly, I don't use Jaheira's second level tier very much. It's just something for a druid to get through to get to the good higher level spells.

    That's why there are so many mods to change the situation.

  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 432

    Find traps thief ability is not a 100% certainty. This might help you catch some that your thief doesn't. Plus, you can't detect traps while hiding in shadows, so the two man team of the thief in the lead followed by Jaheira just a bit behind detecting traps makes for a killer combo. All without the need to (a) waste a potion/spell of INVIS or (b) having a second thief

    Second thief? I only have the one. I don't see how sending a druid with find traps and a thief on point is more efficient. If they aren't invisible, they'll trigger mobs and the party will be less able to choose their battle ground. And besides, the find traps skill is also used to disarm them, so the thief needs the skill anyway.

    It may not be better than Shillelagh, but why take up a level 1 spell slot that could be used for healing when you have these otherwise semi-useless level 2 slots.

    Except that it's worse than Shillelagh because it doesn't strike as a magical weapon (yet the weaker spell Shillelagh does?). It could be a backup troll killer, but you don't see trolls until BG2, and you can get FoA pretty early which takes care of that.

    Kneller said:

    Resist Fire/Cold - worth it when I can start sling fireballs, but I only need one or two of these, tops

    Wait till you get to Durlag's.
    I agree it has its uses, which is why that spell is my primary focus for that level. Now that I'm leveled to the point where I have a couple of fireballs (as well as some wands of fire), I can use this on Jah, have her draw all the aggro, and then nuke away. Between this, the ring of fire and helm of defense, doing this will actually heal Jah.

    Kneller said:

    Slow Poison - I have antidotes (that I never even use up) for that

    true enough, but wait till you get to Cloakwood. My philosophy of this is like a (ahem)... Rain coat. I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
    I'm just about to start cloakwood. I don't recall poison being much of a problem aside from that spider map. But, like I said, if anyone is getting poisoned, it's going to be her. She's the tank. She won't be able to cast if she's poisoned, so it won't do her much good to have this spell prepared. Besides, I have a stack of antidotes from Unshey, some potions of health I picked up along the way, and charname has even started to get slow poison SLAs.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    edited August 2014
    Kneller said:


    Second thief? I only have the one. I don't see how sending a druid with find traps and a thief on point is more efficient. If they aren't invisible, they'll trigger mobs and the party will be less able to choose their battle ground. And besides, the find traps skill is also used to disarm them, so the thief needs the skill anyway.

    You miss the point. Your thief runs point, but Jaheira runs a few steps behind her. That way your thief can scout hidden and see mobs without being detected. Detect Traps has a wider visual range so Jaheira can hang back a bit behind your thief while detecting traps. She spots them before your thief gets to them and your thief avoids them until later. All the while Jaheira is back far enough so that she doesn't need to worry about being seen. Get it?

    And true the remove traps skill is tied to the detect traps skill so you still want to put points in it. But you don't need to put as many because there are other ways of dealing with traps once you know they are there. Plus, if you encounter a trap that you can't disarm, pop a potion of thievery (or Perception???). hey, presto, all of the sudden you can. that only helps once you have detected it though, which the spell can do for you. So you can put very few points in that skill and still be EXTREMELY effective as a trap remover.
    Kneller said:


    Except that it's worse than Shillelagh because it doesn't strike as a magical weapon (yet the weaker spell Shillelagh does?). It could be a backup troll killer, but you don't see trolls until BG2, and you can get FoA pretty early which takes care of that.

    You missed my point. Shillelagh is a level 1 spell. There aren't enough Level 1 slots for all of the useful goodness there. So even if FlameBlade is not as good a spell, why not use it "Because you have the free level 2 slots"? Who says it has to be 'Better'? It simply has to be useful since you aren't using the spell slots anyway.
    Kneller said:


    I'm just about to start cloakwood. I don't recall poison being much of a problem aside from that spider map. But, like I said, if anyone is getting poisoned, it's going to be her. She's the tank. She won't be able to cast if she's poisoned, so it won't do her much good to have this spell prepared. Besides, I have a stack of antidotes from Unshey, some potions of health I picked up along the way, and charname has even started to get slow poison SLAs.

    so it works like this. Let Jaheira use her slow poison spells on anyone "Else" who gets poisoned and save the potions for her. It's an extra level of protection. Since you aren't using the slots otherwise, why not have it there? You aren't using the slots by your own admission. Her is a way to make them less useless.

    At the end of the day, you asked for what to do with the slots. You've got it. What you do with that advice is totally up to you.

    DJKajuruBelgarathMTH
  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315
    @AstroBryGuy just so you know, I do moved Goodberry to 1st lvl spell slots and make it restore a couple more hit points at higher caster levels. Also, with druids now getting Regenerate Wound spells instead of Cure Wound ones, Goodberry has become the only source of "instantaneous cure" for them.

    @subtledoctor making Barkskin self only would not completely remove the chance of screwing Stonekin (e.g. players would have to remember to never cast Barkskin after Stoneskin and AI druids should be scripted to do so). Anyway, you can probably do fine with it for your self modded install, whereas for a public mod like SR I cannot accept tweaks with "flaws".

    @Ardul I don't know if I can find a bam creator before V4 release, but I'm sure sooner or later I will. ;) I do I think AS/MS spells are a must for druids/conjurers.

    Ardul
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,279
    Slow poison is a really useful spell in Cloakwood.

    Flame blade is useful in BG2 against trolls and such.

    I've used jaheira's charm person or mammal countless times against enemy humanoids.

    I don't remember using any other 2nd level spells ...

    the_spyderjackjack
  • ElrandirElrandir Member Posts: 1,653
    I agree completely with Belgarath's opinion of the spells, but I'd also like to add something else about Find Traps. While I don't know if there are any circumstances of this in BG, in the Black Pits 1, there's a battle in which you are quite considerably irritated by traps. A thief with 100 in the find traps skill cannot see them, though this could also be due to the battle itself. Regardless, a thief is useless in this situation. The only way I've found to locate these traps is with the druid's (I was using a cleric, but same difference) Find Traps spell. It located them and made the battle much easier. So for whatever reason, Find Traps is more efficient at locating traps.

  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 432

    I think the OP was looking for some magical Uber-use of 2nd level Druid spells the way WEB is for Wizards, and there really isn't. There are some good utilitarian spells there, but nothing as mind bogglingly useful as WEB. It just isn't there.

    However, the trick is to make the most use of what IS there and that's what we provided. It is up to them to see what is being offered for the value that it is.

    I was just looking for something remotely useful. With my play style the only spell in that level that really gets any play is Resist Fire.

    Also, Web isn't as uber as you might think. It's only uber if you have a regular source of free action (e.g. spider's bane), but considering that Jah can't use it, and I have Minsc focusing on DW weapons as a striker, I don't get a lot of use out of it. I only keep one web spell on hand for a situation where I'm better off having ranged attackers take care of things. With my C/WM, I'm going to get more use out of stinking cloud and animate dead.
    Elrandir said:

    I agree completely with Belgarath's opinion of the spells, but I'd also like to add something else about Find Traps.

    I'm not saying it doesn't have it's uses. In IWD, I did a run with a character (cleric/thief) that got a lot of use out of it. I'm just saying that in BG, with my party and playstyle, it doesn't do much for me.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Web is one of the most useful spells in the game, regardless of if you have free action or not. That's why the gods created archery.

    jackjackBelgarathMTHDreadKhan
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 946
    edited August 2014
    Kneller said:


    Also, Web isn't as uber as you might think. It's only uber if you have a regular source of free action (e.g. spider's bane)

    The real beauty of Web is the fact that enemies roll a -3 saving throw against it, which means its more likely to hit than you think. Even when you're up against giants later on, they can be powerless against your spidery evocation.
    Kneller said:


    I only keep one web spell on hand for a situation where I'm better off having ranged attackers take care of things.

    In BG1, that should be a good 85% of the time, and I may be underestimating that number; The less swings a foe makes against you the better. Not to mention, bows strike twice, and darts thrice. 1d3 is deceptive when you hit 3 times in a row, a 200% increased chance to interrupt a mage than with a weapon you only strike 1.5 times with per round.

    That, and in BG1, dex is much more powerful for missiles than strength for swords.


    Plus, you can't detect traps while hiding in shadow

    You sure about that? I know I've been able to sneak about and disarm, hell I've even opened doors! ow else am I gonna feed canines to Umberhulks? Maybe vanilla BG1 is different.

    lolien
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @Dazzu - excellent post. WEB is amazing in BG1. There are very few times when that spell won't absolutely dominate the combat. I'd rank it in the high 80s or low 90s myself as to percentage of situations where it's useful. But that's just me.

    As far as hiding while detecting, it is SORT OF true. If you hit "hide in shadows" (assuming you succeed), you fade. If you then click 'Find traps', your Hide in Shadows will cancel (unless they changed that in EE??). Technically, your Hide will stay in effect for a short time, but not long. You can't 'click them both on' and go wandering about.

    @Kneller - fair enough. What was being suggested were some (semi) advanced tactics. But they aren't necessary to play/win/have fun in the game. They are merely tactics that may allow you to excel at it. But not required. Play and have fun the way YOU enjoy.

    elminsterjackjackkaguana
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 432
    Dazzu said:

    The real beauty of Web is the fact that enemies roll a -3 saving throw against it, which means its more likely to hit than you think. Even when you're up against giants later on, they can be powerless against your spidery evocation.

    I'm aware of the saving throw penalty, and that's a plus. I mean, it's a minus, well, you know what I mean. :) When I first started playing this game, I made liberal use of Web and Spider's Bane. It made a lot of stuff easier. Longer, boring, but easier. If I'm casting web on a crowd, it's usually mobs blocking an area I need to pass. So, I have to wait for the spell to end to keep going. What's the duration? A full turn or so? Or, I can send in Jah with her insane AC to draw aggro (it's rare than an enemy can hit her on anything less than a 20), then have Minsc circle the crowd and the two of them end the fight in half the time or less. If it's a rough crowd, Jah does Prot. Fire and a fireball or two (from a wand or spell) softens them up. And mages are a breeze in BG1. I'm looking forward to BG2 when they have a little more meat on their bones. I just finished the Davaeorn fight in four rounds. Safana just hung out and mooched XP. I opened with a dispel from Jah, immediately followed by MM from Imoen and my cleric/illusionist with Khalid on archery support. Jah and Minsc charged in, he got off one dimension door, but only moved to the alcove further southwest, then walked back to where we were and ran into Minsc's sword. Gibbed.

    Not that web isn't useful, but if I used it here and he made his save, I'd have been pretty well shafted and the fight would have drawn out. It would have created a hazard zone that I would have to avoid, limiting my mobility while he's DDing all over the place. As was, nobody even took a hit.

    It might have been handy for the trouble I had with the battle horrors at DT, though. I was under-leveled for that, I think, and I barely could kept anyone from dying by going press gang on the mobs. Still, I think I've only used the spell twice so far this run. Once for the double vamp wolves and friends east of the Beregost Temple and once on that massive band of ogres and whatnot (north of the lighthouse?) near where you meet The Surgeon.

    What was being suggested were some (semi) advanced tactics.

    I don't know if I'd call spamming web and plinking that advanced. Speaking of advanced tactics though, isn't there some mod or something that beefs up the AI? I think it might only be for BG2, but I recall hearing something about that.

  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,414
    Kneller said:

    I don't know if I'd call spamming web and plinking that advanced. Speaking of advanced tactics though, isn't there some mod or something that beefs up the AI? I think it might only be for BG2, but I recall hearing something about that.

    Yes, there is Sword Coast Stratagems. It works on BGEE as well as BG2EE.

    http://www.gibberlings3.net/scs/

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