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BG Tweak Pack. How far do you take it?

MeanbunnyMeanbunny Member Posts: 107
edited August 2014 in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
Hey guys, I have finally decided to start modding the game a little bit and I really had no idea how deep the changes could go. I want to have a legit BG experience and I don't want to add any cheese to the game as I already find it easy enough without SCS. I am trying to figure out what the standard is for a normal game of BG. I will list a few things below to see what you guys think about them and how they effect the game.

1. Un-Nerfed Thac0 Table
2. Multi-Class Grand Mastery
3. Removing Racial Restrictions for Classes
4. Human or Any Race Multi-Classing

Those are the main four that I am curious about, and want to know if any of you guys play with these modifications to your game.

Is there anyone out there that thinks that allowing Human Multi-Class is true to the BG version of AD&D 2nd Ed.?

Will Un-Nerfed Thac0 and Multi-Class Grand Mastery make the game too easy at the ToB level?

I appreciate everyone who takes the time to comment on this topic. It really means a lot to me as I truly value the opinions of all of you on this forum. If there are some taboo changes in the BG Tweak Pack that I need to be staying away from, I would really like to know about it. Also I know some of you are going to say, "Play the game the way that you want to play it.". I understand that and respect that, but I have more of a desire to play the game the way the community at large believes is the correct way to play the game to get maximum enjoyment out of it while also getting the authentic BG AD&D 2nd Ed. experience.

Thanks guys. Have fun and as always, have an awesome day.
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Comments

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    I take it as close to pnp as possible , however, I don't see any problems removing racial restrictions or human multiclassing .

    @Meanbunny , un-nerfed thac0 and multi class grand mastery won't make ToB easier than it already is . After all , any of your fighters and spellcasters will be badasses after level 20.
  • MeanbunnyMeanbunny Member Posts: 107
    edited August 2014
    @DjKajuru Thanks man, that's about how I was feeling, I just wanted to make sure no one else had any reserved feelings for what they would think are not good changes in the tweak pack.

    I am going to tag a few others out there that I would like to hear their opinions. I just picked a handful of random names, so forgive me if you have helped me before and I missed your name. Have a great day guys.

    @Blackraven @Gotural @jackjack @CrevsDaak @elminster @meagloth @the_spyder @CaloNord @Ravenslight @Elrandir @DreadKhan
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    If you find the game easy, then install SCS--it makes the game much difficult by giving enemies great scripts.

    By recommendation for the BG2 tweak pack, if you find the game easy, are:
    -Potions and gems need identification.
    -Spells give saving throws penalties when cast by very high level casters.

    I don't use most of the "unlimited stack of X" or "un-nerf X". But I do remove the XP cap and allow non-humans tp dual-class, besides max HP for every creaturein the game and other stuff.

    You can find a copu of my actual BGT install's weidu.log here.
  • RavenslightRavenslight Member Posts: 1,609
    @MeanBunny
    I’m glad you are enjoying the game. :)
    As for your question. I think there are others more qualified to give you an opinion on the 4 components of the Tweaks mod that you mentioned, as I have not used those. I will say I intend to try the removing racial restrictions and allowing multi classes for other races, at some point. I personally don’t see how that would be unbalancing in any way. One of my favorite things to use is the unlimited ammo stacking. I also usually remove the XP cap as I tend to play long, role played games and don’t like hitting a cap.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @Meanbunny - thanks for including me.

    I believe very strongly in house rules. These rules are those that your DM has implemented in addition to/instead of the standard rules. As such, if he wanted to allow the creation of a Dwarven Wizard as a PC, he would be able to do that. Whatever those rules (or MODs in CRPGs) are "For you" in BG, if you can mod them or get them via the tweak pack? GREAT! Figure out what makes the game fun for you and play that way. The game is so infinitely variable that literally the sky's the limit.

    For me personally, I like the more traditional race/class limitations. I think it adds distinction to playing an individual race if I am limited. What that means to me is, the dwarven wizard mentioned above just feels wrong "To me". Dwarves are fighters and Elves are wizards. That is the way I grew up playing PnP and that is what I feel comfortable with.

    But again, if you feel that multi-class humans is what does it for you? Absolutely play that way. If you want "Non-standard" character race/class combinations? Have at it. Whatever is fun for you.
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    Pardon my ignorance, but what does an un-nerfed thac0 table look like? I don't play tabletop.
  • CaloNordCaloNord Member Posts: 1,809
    Nailed it. . . .
    image
    *Cringes*

    To be honest I didn't notice a massive amount of difference with the un-nerfed tables. I love the saving penalty against HL spellcasters. It seems to jive really well with SCS. :)

    I do currently have the racial restrictions removed, although it can cause a few odd issues with the paperdolls from time to time. But I don't see any reason why an elf can't be a druid, or bard. Infact it makes more sense if they could play those classes.

    I do however have a copy of BG with no mods installed, sometimes I just like to play the original. You're going to find opinions that vary greatly. A lot of people like their BG as close to 2nd as possible, some prefer the more 3.5 elements that mods can introduce. Personally I'm fairly flexible, I love my current modded version which I would call AD&D 2.25ed.

    I look forward to seeing where this goes mate! Keep it up, thanks so much for the tag!! :):)

  • MeanbunnyMeanbunny Member Posts: 107
    edited August 2014
    Okay, so I have been doing some experimenting and I have noticed something about the "Allow Thieving and Aracane Spell Casting in Heavy Armor" mod and I realized a couple things.

    1. Fighter/Thieves or Vanilla Thieves can wear studded armor with no penalty in the vanilla game, but if you install the thieving in heavy armor mod, studded armor is the first armor to give a penalty to thieving abilities. The penalties go up from there, but you would think that studded would have no penalty at all like in the vanilla game?

    2. Fighter/Mages in the vanilla game cannot wear heavy armor and spell cast at the same time, but they can wear shields without any penalty at all to their spellcasting ability. If you install the spell casting in heavy armor mod, shields will give a hefty penalty to mis-casting magic.

    So basically, if you want to wear heavy armor as a Fighter/Mage, you will now have to endure a 50% miscast magic penalty if you want to use that large shield that before incurred no penalties at all. Your Fighter/Thief will also have to endure a penalty to thieving abilities while wearing Studded Armor, which previously incurred no penalties either.

    So at first I thought these were great changes, but now that I think about it, I am not sure if wearing heavy armor on a F/M is worth now having a huge 50% mis-cast penalty if I want to wear my large shield. I am not a seasoned enough D&D player to know if wearing heavy armor with a penalty is worth having that huge penalty to wearing shields.

    I know that I could probably just take off my shield every time that I want to cast a spell, but that just seems a bit tedious and would probably get annoying after while.

    Anyway, just a few observations I have made so far. Thanks a bunch everyone for the awesome comments. Your input as always, is greatly appreciated. Take it easy guys and keep BG'ing it up. ;))
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    I share your opinion. It's why I uninstalled that component after having played with it for a bit. I prefer the all or nothing approach the original game takes when it comes to spellcasting and armor, over a spell failure chance. Miscasting is only fun if it happens to the enemy.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    Actually the "Spell-miscast when wearing armor" is from 3E. I always skip it, but I do install the "Armor gives penalties to thieving skills", it seems more realistic, since an actual Leather armor in RL isn't a silk dress I could say. :)
  • MeanbunnyMeanbunny Member Posts: 107
    I just have been having the urge to play a Human Multi-Class. I know I should just play the game the way that makes me happy, but I still wanted to stay as true to the real game as possible. If Human Multi-Class characters are not meant to be running around, it makes it hard for me to violate that principle.

    If it weren't for how easy it is to make a mistake with a Dual-Class character, I would just take that route, but also I realize that if you want to do it optimally, then that would mean playing Single-Class for almost the entirety of BG1. I don't have anything against Elves and Half-Elves, I just have always had a soft spot for Humans.

    @CrevsDaak I just now realized that SCS is compatible with BG:EE! Now I am excited. I wonder if I will have the skills to take on such a challenge? Either way, I am definitely going to try. For some reason I was under the impression SCS was not compatible with BG:EE, I am glad that I know otherwise now.

    Also, does anyone know if patch 1.3 is the only thing that requires the Beamdog version of the game? I think that I read that only those who purchased from Beamdog can download the Beta. Are there any mods that share this same requirements?
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    the_spyder said:

    CaloNord said:

    But I don't see any reason why an elf can't be a druid,

    This made no sense to me either. Elves and Druidry seem like a perfect match.

    Wood elves (sylvan elves) can become druids in 2nd edition D&D. Its just the other elf-subraces that can't (including obviously drow).
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    Meanbunny said:

    Also, does anyone know if patch 1.3 is the only thing that requires the Beamdog version of the game? I think that I read that only those who purchased from Beamdog can download the Beta. Are there any mods that share this same requirements?

    Yes. The game is actually the same, the only thing that chances is whether Beamdog can be sure you bought the game or not. Mods are compatible with the game, no matter if you got it from Steam, Apple Store or Beamdog. Some mods might not work over iPad or Android, but I don't know any mod which won't work in those platforms anyway.
    Meanbunny said:

    @CrevsDaak I just now realized that SCS is compatible with BG:EE! Now I am excited. I wonder if I will have the skills to take on such a challenge? Either way, I am definitely going to try. For some reason I was under the impression SCS was not compatible with BG:EE, I am glad that I know otherwise now.

    I'd recommend to give it a try, and if you find the game too difficult you could just uninstall it and done.
  • dashteacupdashteacup Member Posts: 52
    edited August 2014
    Meanbunny said:


    1. Fighter/Thieves or Vanilla Thieves can wear studded armor with no penalty in the vanilla game, but if you install the thieving in heavy armor mod, studded armor is the first armor to give a penalty to thieving abilities. The penalties go up from there, but you would think that studded would have no penalty at all like in the vanilla game?

    The "thieving in heavy armor mod" gives you a tactical reason to choose plain leather over studded leather. In vanilla there's very little reason to use any leather armor other than the human flesh. Also, it gives thieves a reason to go over 100% on certain thieving skills. In ToB thieves (especially single class ones) have more than enough skill points, but not much to do with them. This mod option helps alleviate that problem somewhat. Once you get use any item you can keep thieving while wearing some of the powerful heavy armors.

    Most mods should work fine on all the PC/Mac versions since they use WeiDU. I don't know about iPad/android though.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2014
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    subtledoctor said:


    If you look at it this way, I think you will agree that there is not much value in rigidly using some "pure" version of the game rules. I say treat the game files like a DM, and collaborate.

    You had me up to this point. I 100% agree that mods and house rules are an excellent option. But I don't see that being any MORE or LESS valid than playing un-modified games. It's six of one and half a dozen of the other depending on your own preferences.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @subtledoctor - ok, potato, potaaato. It's a semantic thing. I'd have worded it differently is all.

    @Gotural - Excellent post. Loads of really good information there. Kudos.
  • MeanbunnyMeanbunny Member Posts: 107
    edited August 2014
    @Dashteacup I never thought about it that way Dash. Good job on viewing things from different angles. That in fact does give a good reason to wear regular leather armor. That was definitely insightful.

    @Gotural That was a very comprehensive post there. Thanks for hitting each point I was inferring about.

    I am glad that the decisions I have made about the Tweak Pack somewhat coincide with the rest of you guys. I just wanted to make sure if I came on the forum and said I played a multi-class human that I wouldn't get trolled or laughed at.

    I am going to install SCS today. Wish me luck guys! >.<

    @CrevsDaak Omg! I was just browsing the G3 forums and realized that you recently made the "Keeping Yoshimo" mod EE compatible! That is amazing Crevs! I can't believe I can actually keep Yoshimo when I next play BG2:EE! In the words of Yoshimo, "It is up to us to party.", "We must party.".

    Party we shall my friend! :D
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Meanbunny said:

    if I came on the forum and said I played a multi-class human that I wouldn't get trolled or laughed at.

    Hey there. NO one said THAT!!! LOL.
  • MeanbunnyMeanbunny Member Posts: 107
    edited August 2014
    So guys, after I downloaded SCS, I was reading through all the changes that it makes to the game and once I got through reading, something kind of hit me at the last minute. If I beat the game with the SCS mod, will I ever be able to enjoy playing the vanilla or non SCS game again?

    What I mean by this, is I would assume after beating SCS, wouldn't the normal un-modded game feel elementary and just not much of a challenge? Are there any of you out there that after using this mod cannot enjoy playing the un-modded game afterward?

    It is just a fear I have because I don't want to feel dependant on the mod to enjoy the game. I definitely want to try it out, but I didn't want it to be SCS or nothing from here on out because after getting used it it the vanilla game just feels too easy.

    Any of you feel this way about SCS or modding in general? Let me know guys. Thanks.
  • ArdulArdul Member Posts: 211
    You will not want to go back to an unmodded game, but for a very good reason: it is simply a lot better modded.

    I can also recommend spell revisions and item revisions (both are in the final testing phases before bing released in version 4).
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
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  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    Yes you're right, going back to the vanilla game will be very hard. I know I can't play it anymore without my mods.

    I even tried to solo no-reload the vanilla game and I created a thread for it but I gave up in Chapter 2 a few hours after the start. The game was feeling so empty, it was embarrassing.
  • MeanbunnyMeanbunny Member Posts: 107
    That is kind of what I was afraid of. I know in a way it is a good thing because in most of your opinions it makes the game much more enjoyable, but I just have always felt this guilt about using mods on any game because I didn't want to change the vision of the original developers too much to the point where it felt like a different game than the experience they meant you to have.

    Hopefully I will start to look at these mod as "continued development" of the game we love.
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